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The Michael McCarron Thread - Part II : Bigger, Stronger and Meaner

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Old
07-21-2013, 07:27 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
Where was Jessiman expected to get drafted at the time?
Probably something like #20. However, he was said to be moving up and I was afraid the Habs would draft him with their #10 in 2003. I was relieved when the Rangers selected him at #12 and he lived down to my expectations. So, if Hab fans were baffled when the Habs ignored a number of forwards who have had very good NHL careers, the Rangers also missed out on them. AKost was miles ahead of Hugh Jessiman (AKA Huge Specimen).

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07-21-2013, 07:35 PM
  #377
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I may be overstating Jessiman's lack of skill..he wasn't without some talent...but the main concern with him was character/softness according to a longtime NHL scout I just asked. His skating never improved either. The scout said McCarron and Jessiman weren't similar prospects at all.

Lots of late first rounders become solid third-line players on good teams..and weren't considered busts.

It's my hope that Montreal's third line is superior to most teams' second lines in a few years...if Mac is playing on a third line with de la Rose and Eller for instance, and they are a dominant force....I'll be satisfied that he didn't "bust". On good teams it's the top 9 that is important...they are often interchangeable.

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07-21-2013, 07:46 PM
  #378
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Wade Belak was drafted in the first round.
Chris Dingman was also drafted in the first round.

Much like McIlrath, they were drafted because they could beat people AND be very good players. At least that was the hope.

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07-21-2013, 07:47 PM
  #379
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Lots of late first rounders become solid third-line players on good teams..and weren't considered busts.

It's my hope that Montreal's third line is superior to most teams' second lines in a few years...if Mac is playing on a third line with de la Rose and Eller for instance, and they are a dominant force....I'll be satisfied that he didn't "bust". On good teams it's the top 9 that is important...they are often interchangeable.
Well, if we're talking about a third line that's superior to most teams' second lines, then it's not really a third line anymore, more like a 2B

But I get what you're saying. If he ends up into a more physical René Bourque, it certainly wouldn't be all that bad. I'll still be pissed if Zykov ends up a quality top 6 player, like I think he could be, knowing we passed on him 3 times, no less.

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07-21-2013, 07:48 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Wade Belak was drafted in the first round.
Chris Dingman was also drafted in the first round.

Much like McIlrath, they were drafted because they could beat people AND be very good players. At least that was the hope.
I know. I just like making fun of the mcilrath pick. Almost as much as moroz, but alas, he was just barely out of the 1st round.

McCarron, unlike Tinordi, has expressed a real love for the rough stuff and fighting. If he really does enjoy it that much, he'll get good at it, I have no doubt.

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07-21-2013, 07:59 PM
  #381
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I know. I just like making fun of the mcilrath pick. Almost as much as moroz, but alas, he was just barely out of the 1st round.

McCarron, unlike Tinordi, has expressed a real love for the rough stuff and fighting. If he really does enjoy it that much, he'll get good at it, I have no doubt.
I think McCarron is just saying what people want to hear.

Though, we'll see in his first game.

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07-21-2013, 08:16 PM
  #382
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Well, if we're talking about a third line that's superior to most teams' second lines, then it's not really a third line anymore, more like a 2B

But I get what you're saying. If he ends up into a more physical René Bourque, it certainly wouldn't be all that bad. I'll still be pissed if Zykov ends up a quality top 6 player, like I think he could be, knowing we passed on him 3 times, no less.
I hear ya. Zykov "may" be a home run, but to be honest I think he's more of a risky pick than either DLR or Zykov. The Russian factor unfortunately hurts most prospects..Zadorov was a top 7 talent in this draft if you can put up with his lackadaisical nature...but he's Russian.

Don't be expecting the Habs to be drafting any Russians in the top 60 these days, especially with the KHL, and having been burned in the past by the Kostitsyns and such..and Avtsin and Trunev not panning out.

The first time I saw Zykov play I thought he might be a top 15 guy...very strong on his skates, drove to the net with authority, played a North American style I thought...looked like a potential power forward.

On subsequent viewings he wasn't as impressive however, and when it became evident that other players were coming into the mix in what turned out to be a very deep draft, he fell.

While Zykov is a strong kid who is hard to knock off of his skates and likes to hit, he's not a real gritty guy..he didn't get in any fights last season...not even during the playoff brawl. His skating is okay but there's work to be done on quickness and agility. Skating is so important at the NHL level..likely the most important category when judging a prospect. He's also not the prospect with the most vision out there, nor are his hands elite.

If I was going to draft a Russian however..Zykov would have been an option. He really doesn't seem like the type of kid who will bolt back to Russia the moment the going gets tough. Yet there is always that possibility.

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07-21-2013, 08:23 PM
  #383
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If I was going to draft a Russian however..Zykov would have been an option. He really doesn't seem like the type of kid who will bolt back to Russia the moment the going gets tough. Yet there is always that possibility.
Yep. I bet the Jets/Thrashers management didn't expect Burmistrov to be the type to bolt to the KHL.

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07-21-2013, 08:29 PM
  #384
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Yep. I bet the Jets/Thrashers management didn't expect Burmistrov to be the type to bolt to the KHL.
Burmistrov could've been a good one. Management teams need to learn not to bring a kid in early. I know that there is always a player who is "too good" for junior. Well, sometimes that's better than not being good enough for the NHL.

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07-21-2013, 08:46 PM
  #385
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Watch Hugh Jessiman play sometime and get back to me..okay? You'd swear from the way you're describing him that he was an NHL star. What's his weakness then if all of this is apparently true? He is not a good skater and doesn't have good hands...period. Maybe a couple of incompetent scouts watching him play thought differently at the time..obviously they were wrong were they not?

Here's a little tidbit for you I dug up regarding how "enamoured" the Rangers were with him

"One of the best lunches I've had in the past year, was with a former scout of the New York Rangers, who was on the staff when they picked Jessiman. He told me that only ONE of the teams scouts ACTUALLY saw Jessiman play, but he convinced the top dogs that Hugh was the pick. BTW...the rest of the scouts were favouring Mike Richards as the pick.

Most of the other scouts, after seeing Jessiman play, first reaction was 'you gotta be kidding me. this kid will never play in the NHL'.

The scout, although I won't mention his name, was a former GM of the Kitchener Rangers, and is from Thunder Bay...my home town."

----------------------------------------------------------

What this fellow said very much goes in line with what I heard about Jessiman from other scouts when he was drafted...they couldn't believe that the Rangers chose him in the first round at all..let alone 11th overall.

Having no discernible weaknesses is good when you're 6-5 and have a physical presence.. We're not talking about a 5-11 kid here. Pro scouts and the likes of Mark Hunter have continuously talked about how well Mac skates and handles the puck for his size. There is plenty of upside to go with the no discernible weaknesses. Makes for a safe draft pick in my mind...certainly not a potential bust like Jessiman, who was not a good skater from all reports I recall, and still isn't. It's the main reason why he remains the only top 30 pick from that draft not to play in the NHL.

Hurley had one goal in 11 games...and played on the third and fourth line. Check out McCarron's goal stats his last 11 games...he scored more than once I can tell you. For a kid that was so hyped and dubbed a "power forward, Hurley disappointed a lot of scouts with his lack of offensive upside once he faced better competition. I heard from several scouts that he had "no hands"...haven't heard that about McCarron from anyone other than Grind your Gears.
Seriously, I get that you're passionate about the Habs and have infinite respect for Trevor Timmmis. I do to (maybe not infinite but a lot). Probably one of the best if not the best in the business. But this is a bit much at times.

First of all, I don't think I said any more about Jessiman than you said about McCarron. Simply using the same words you used. Good hands and good skater for a player his size. All I said. It's one thing to say that Jessiman hasn't developed over the years but back in 2003, people were saying almost the same thing about Jessiman.

As for your source, good for him. Easy to wash your hands afterwards. It's like the thing that came out a few years ago saying only TT wanted Kostitsyn while Savard wanted Carter.

Also, all scouts miss. TT drafted David Fisher of all people. Rangers had their share of good picks as well. It's not like they're the only ones who pointed out that Jessiman had good skating and good hands for a big man. There are other sources pointing out the same elements of his game.

Of course all prospects are different. For each and everyone of them you can build an argument saying that this prospect is unlike any other before who has come before him and you'd be right. That said, for me McCarron enters the category of big men at forward, though not unskilled (i.e. a pure goon) but still has a lot of development to do until he plays an important role in the NHL. But most of all, have to find their "chair" to sit in. That is a defined role in which they are successful. I like big men at forward who are solid defensively. That's how they can best use their size. Personally, I prefer prospects like Brouwer who had great defense but still had to develop offensively. That way, worst case scenario, if they conitnue to improve like everyone else, they'll still be solid in one area of the game and have their place on the team. Not sure where McCarron fits thus far. That's why I preferd Hayden as far as big men came in this draft. Of course, though not McCarron big, Hayden wasn't small by any means. However, Hayden is already a very good defensive player and plays tough defensive minutes.

I noted that there is a bust factor with McCarron. There is with any player in this draft. MacKinnon could bust, so could Drouin or Jones. Some are riskier than others. Several prospects similar to McCarron had troubles adjusting to the AHL (let alone the NHL). Even succesful ones, like Bickell, took quite a bit of time developing in the AHL.

I'll argue in the favor of the Canadiens saying that having so many good prospects like Galcheyuk, Hudon, Collberg, Bozon, Gallagher and list goes on that they can use one of their picks for a special kind of player like McCarron. Despite the risk/reward he represents, the risk can be considered lower since the Habs have good prospects. But similar players to McCarron have busted in the past. It's not true that big men have it easier than others adjusting to the NHL. Canadiens had their share in the 90's.

If you want to compare McCarron to Hurley, then in order to compare apples to apples and not apples and oranges, I'd rather compare Hurley's first 10 games to McCarron's first 10 games in the USHL. Their experience would be much closer. Most will agree that until midway through this season (his second USHL season), McCarron was considered a mid-round pick. It's not until the various tournaments and the U18 that McCaron rose in the rankings. Of course, could be that he was on Habs' radar for longer than that but still. Not a big fan of players who rise to fame during short tournaments and playoffs. I think it leads to what we discussed in a different thread, people pay (in the case of playoffs performers) for statistical anomalies more than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
This whole bust argument is really going nowhere if people don't share the same view of the word bust.

If McCarron turns out into a Brandon Prust, i.e. serviceable 3rd liner/ideal 4th liner that can chip in from time to time and isn't afraid to drop 'em against pretty much anyone... Should he be considered a bust? I for one wouldn't be ecstatic, not because McCarron wouldn't help the Habs if that's how things turned out, but simply because this draft class has been shoved down our throats for quite a while as the second coming of the 2003 draft, in which you had stars popping out from everywhere. So put into context, would he end up as a fringe 3rd liner, I would tend to consider him as an underwhelming pick, at worst a "bust".

I'm personally not much of a fan of that pick, mostly because there were much more naturally gifted players available at that spot. There's however many more things to consider when it comes to drafting a player, character and maturity being some of them, and these are the sort of things scouts/NHL team's management are much more aware than us fans.

Anyway, to not consider McCarron a bust, he would need, for me, to become at least a decent top 6 player. By that [my] definition, his bust ratio is rather high, because like I said, I don't see all that much natural skills in him, compared to Zykov, for example. I certainly do hope he proves me wrong though, in a similar fashion to what Pacioretty did in the last couple of years.
I see it pretty much the way you do. Hope he proves me wrong.


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Old
07-21-2013, 08:56 PM
  #386
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Not a big fan of players who rise to fame during short tournaments and playoffs. I think it leads to what we discussed in a different thread, people pay (in the case of playoffs performers) for statistical anomaly more than anything else.
Why? It turned out pretty good for us when we picked Dietz in 2011

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07-21-2013, 08:58 PM
  #387
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Why? It turned out pretty good for us when we picked Dietz in 2011
Dietz was more than that. He had a very good season as well on top of being a fairly young player in the WHL. Still a lot of room for development. I liked the pick a lot that year.

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07-21-2013, 09:47 PM
  #388
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I hear ya. Zykov "may" be a home run, but to be honest I think he's more of a risky pick than either DLR or Zykov. The Russian factor unfortunately hurts most prospects..Zadorov was a top 7 talent in this draft if you can put up with his lackadaisical nature...but he's Russian.

Don't be expecting the Habs to be drafting any Russians in the top 60 these days, especially with the KHL, and having been burned in the past by the Kostitsyns and such..and Avtsin and Trunev not panning out.

The first time I saw Zykov play I thought he might be a top 15 guy...very strong on his skates, drove to the net with authority, played a North American style I thought...looked like a potential power forward.

On subsequent viewings he wasn't as impressive however, and when it became evident that other players were coming into the mix in what turned out to be a very deep draft, he fell.

While Zykov is a strong kid who is hard to knock off of his skates and likes to hit, he's not a real gritty guy..he didn't get in any fights last season...not even during the playoff brawl. His skating is okay but there's work to be done on quickness and agility. Skating is so important at the NHL level..likely the most important category when judging a prospect. He's also not the prospect with the most vision out there, nor are his hands elite.

If I was going to draft a Russian however..Zykov would have been an option. He really doesn't seem like the type of kid who will bolt back to Russia the moment the going gets tough. Yet there is always that possibility.
Who did you prefer between Zykov and Erne?

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07-21-2013, 10:45 PM
  #389
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Well, if we're talking about a third line that's superior to most teams' second lines, then it's not really a third line anymore, more like a 2B

But I get what you're saying. If he ends up into a more physical René Bourque, it certainly wouldn't be all that bad. I'll still be pissed if Zykov ends up a quality top 6 player, like I think he could be, knowing we passed on him 3 times, no less.
Not a good way to look at the draft regarding passing on Zykov.

Look at every draft that any team has had and look at the players that they passed on. Countless players have been passed on by teams and turn into successful hockey players elsewhere.

Looking back and saying "could have" and "should have" is an exercise in misery.

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07-21-2013, 11:08 PM
  #390
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Are the Rangers so bad at drafting players?

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07-21-2013, 11:11 PM
  #391
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Wish we didn't have to wait!!!! Wish he was 21-22...now!!

McCarron-Galchenyuk-Gallagher



p.s.: but...it'll be fun to follow his development with the London Knights
Feels like we need to wait at least two years.

Next year will tell us a lot about him.

On 98.5, I heard a scout saying that he did improved tremendously his skating in the second half of the season.
He does have very big upper body size and if he can bring his leg with similar strength, he will have all the physical skills to be a nhl power forward.

According to reports, he has very good work ethics and low body fat.

McCarron was a top pick by Knights and Western Michigan.
The fact that both were trying so hard to have him is giving me a lot of hopes. Hunter and Murray are both good judges of talents.

He is already 237 lbs.
More muscles in his legs could bring him to nearly 250.
There are 5 players in the league weighting 250 and more: Scott, Byfuglien, Chara, Yonkman and McIntyre.
We are dealing in a rare category and few examples are available.

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07-21-2013, 11:54 PM
  #392
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250lbs is pushing it. Chara is listed at 255 and is a 6'9 physical freak. Byfuglien is heavy, but he's fat.

McCarron should try and stay around 230.

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07-22-2013, 12:18 AM
  #393
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250lbs is pushing it. Chara is listed at 255 and is a 6'9 physical freak. Byfuglien is heavy, but he's fat.

McCarron should try and stay around 230.
Weight is deceptive and surprising. He'll weigh what he'll weigh. It's just a number. It's about the strength and conditioning of McCarron in perspective of his body type. Plus I doubt he'll try to increase his weight. He'll likely be simply a more efficient 230ish pounds. If he does go up in weight it will be due to improving his lower body.

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07-22-2013, 12:56 AM
  #394
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He is already 237 lbs.
More muscles in his legs could bring him to nearly 250.
There are 5 players in the league weighting 250 and more: Scott, Byfuglien, Chara, Yonkman and McIntyre.
We are dealing in a rare category and few examples are available.
That'd be sick!

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07-22-2013, 01:09 AM
  #395
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Feels like we need to wait at least two years.

Next year will tell us a lot about him.

On 98.5, I heard a scout saying that he did improved tremendously his skating in the second half of the season.
He does have very big upper body size and if he can bring his leg with similar strength, he will have all the physical skills to be a nhl power forward.

According to reports, he has very good work ethics and low body fat.

McCarron was a top pick by Knights and Western Michigan.
The fact that both were trying so hard to have him is giving me a lot of hopes. Hunter and Murray are both good judges of talents.

He is already 237 lbs.
More muscles in his legs could bring him to nearly 250.
There are 5 players in the league weighting 250 and more: Scott, Byfuglien, Chara, Yonkman and McIntyre.
We are dealing in a rare category and few examples are available.
You have it backwards with his physique. His upper body is very under developed while he has big legs which is why his skating is decent for a big man. He has an enormous frame as he is very wide but anyone can see that he looks pretty thin on top.

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07-22-2013, 03:09 AM
  #396
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He needs better high body strength, but better balance and control of his leg, maybe?

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07-22-2013, 09:28 AM
  #397
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Weight is deceptive and surprising. He'll weigh what he'll weigh. It's just a number. It's about the strength and conditioning of McCarron in perspective of his body type. Plus I doubt he'll try to increase his weight. He'll likely be simply a more efficient 230ish pounds. If he does go up in weight it will be due to improving his lower body.
well said

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So he can't fight yet we picked him to be a enforcer?
I would assume they picked him to be a power forward, something we sorely need more of.

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I've been watching some of the NYR AHL games to see Thomas, but in watching those games, McIlrath was the most impressive. Would have really liked to get him.

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07-22-2013, 10:01 AM
  #398
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Seriously, I get that you're passionate about the Habs and have infinite respect for Trevor Timmmis. I do to (maybe not infinite but a lot). Probably one of the best if not the best in the business. But this is a bit much at times.
Not defending Grant, he's a big man, can do it himself. Yet, I understand his reactions. We are talking about his job here. If there was a board when people, not really in the business, were continouously second guessing the type of work that I'm doing while I'm actually amongst the only one that has an idea what it is about...I'd probably have the same reactions. But I also get what you are saying.

Going back to Grant's point, his story about how the Rangers Jessiman pick tell me one thing....either the ONLY one guy was the head scout....either this head scout make a terrible mistake by going with one opinion instead of ALL the others who were going with a different player. Yet, you have to think that in the end, the head scout has the final say and went with how really convinced his scout was. I mean, it is just CSS, just another list, but it's not like they had Jessiman in the 3rd round...they had him 20th in North America. 2 spots before....Bergeron. Clearly, where the Rangers picked him seemed too soon, I mean, I remember my reaction, that's what I thought to, not really because I had seen him play that much, but because I had others in mind for sure.

Point about McCarron is this....Did teams had McCarron in their first 20 picks no matter their needs. Was McCarron a 25th pick because Montreal was sorely lacking that type of player? Did needs command McCarron to be selected at that spot?

But then, in the end, it's one thing to draft a guy based on what you see....it's a totally different thing to draft him based on what he can develop and give you in the future. Is he committed in improving? Has he already showed an improvement in his draft year or even the years before. I mean, in his draft year, even for a big man, Lucic was not a great skater. Didn't have the greatest of hands either. And people didn't believe in him as much as Habs did with McCarron as he would have been selected before. But he incredibly improved. Just like Patrice Bergeron improved so much. The basis were all there for those players. But it's their improvement that made them the NHL players that they are today....not what they were showing in their draft year. In the end.....if a team would have picked Milan Lucic in the 1st round....we would have called for it as a bust pick. "Nothing more than at best a 4th line fighter". In retrospect.....we hated the Habs every day of the week for going with the great Urquhart instead.

I think that people overestimate this "we need to be careful with big guys as they could bust..." Thing is....everybody busts. I guess the sounds of the bust is BIGGER for a big guy....but how's Patrick White? Yes, Thomas Hickey finally plays in the league...but was he really worthy of a 4th overall? Gilbert Brule....Zach Hamill....or others bigger players 6'1'', 6'2'' like Zagrapan etc... Everybody bust. Nature of the game.

Habs have had some problems at the draft table. For so long what their inability to be interested, to find, or call it as you want, to develop some power forwards or some grit in their lineup. We are trying to address that. Can't fault them for trying. Even if, in the end, even for me, there might have been better candidates. I know one thing.....I hated the Urquhart pick but I didn't mind not going for Lucic....history shows I should have....No matter who you go for, chances are there will be a better player. For every pick you make, chances are 1 of the other 29 teams that will pick after you might make a better pick than you. In the end, in the long run, just freakin draft some great players that will eventually form your great team. And one thing is sure, if McCarron develops the way they think he can, there's just no way you'll be able to trade or get a player like him....so might as well draft him.

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Old
07-22-2013, 10:07 AM
  #399
Grant McCagg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
Seriously, I get that you're passionate about the Habs and have infinite respect for Trevor Timmmis. I do to (maybe not infinite but a lot). Probably one of the best if not the best in the business. But this is a bit much at times.

First of all, I don't think I said any more about Jessiman than you said about McCarron. Simply using the same words you used. Good hands and good skater for a player his size. All I said. It's one thing to say that Jessiman hasn't developed over the years but back in 2003, people were saying almost the same thing about Jessiman.

As for your source, good for him. Easy to wash your hands afterwards. It's like the thing that came out a few years ago saying only TT wanted Kostitsyn while Savard wanted Carter.

Also, all scouts miss. TT drafted David Fisher of all people. Rangers had their share of good picks as well. It's not like they're the only ones who pointed out that Jessiman had good skating and good hands for a big man. There are other sources pointing out the same elements of his game.

Of course all prospects are different. For each and everyone of them you can build an argument saying that this prospect is unlike any other before who has come before him and you'd be right. That said, for me McCarron enters the category of big men at forward, though not unskilled (i.e. a pure goon) but still has a lot of development to do until he plays an important role in the NHL. But most of all, have to find their "chair" to sit in. That is a defined role in which they are successful. I like big men at forward who are solid defensively. That's how they can best use their size. Personally, I prefer prospects like Brouwer who had great defense but still had to develop offensively. That way, worst case scenario, if they conitnue to improve like everyone else, they'll still be solid in one area of the game and have their place on the team. Not sure where McCarron fits thus far. That's why I preferd Hayden as far as big men came in this draft. Of course, though not McCarron big, Hayden wasn't small by any means. However, Hayden is already a very good defensive player and plays tough defensive minutes.

I noted that there is a bust factor with McCarron. There is with any player in this draft. MacKinnon could bust, so could Drouin or Jones. Some are riskier than others. Several prospects similar to McCarron had troubles adjusting to the AHL (let alone the NHL). Even succesful ones, like Bickell, took quite a bit of time developing in the AHL.

I'll argue in the favor of the Canadiens saying that having so many good prospects like Galcheyuk, Hudon, Collberg, Bozon, Gallagher and list goes on that they can use one of their picks for a special kind of player like McCarron. Despite the risk/reward he represents, the risk can be considered lower since the Habs have good prospects. But similar players to McCarron have busted in the past. It's not true that big men have it easier than others adjusting to the NHL. Canadiens had their share in the 90's.

If you want to compare McCarron to Hurley, then in order to compare apples to apples and not apples and oranges, I'd rather compare Hurley's first 10 games to McCarron's first 10 games in the USHL. Their experience would be much closer. Most will agree that until midway through this season (his second USHL season), McCarron was considered a mid-round pick. It's not until the various tournaments and the U18 that McCaron rose in the rankings. Of course, could be that he was on Habs' radar for longer than that but still. Not a big fan of players who rise to fame during short tournaments and playoffs. I think it leads to what we discussed in a different thread, people pay (in the case of playoffs performers) for statistical anomalies more than anything else.



I see it pretty much the way you do. Hope he proves me wrong.

Can you not respect that I'm involved in NHL scouting? I really don't need the lengthy diatribes that are nothing more than wild assumptions. I worked for the Habs last year on a consulting basis, I was employed by the Hockey News and McKeen's...I saw many games and talked to many scouts. Bob McKenzie and I consult on a regular basis on the draft - I am one of the scouts whose opinions he trusts for his draft rankings. Does this not mean anything to you? I guess not, because it goes against your opinion.

I'm not just expressing my opinion only (unlike yourself), nor the opinions of just one other scout. I gave you assessments from three different sources on Jessiman..one is an NHL head scout, one is now an assistant GM, the other is a senior scout. They all thought Jessiman was a terrible pick for the reasons I stated. I tried to appease you by saying that perhaps I understated Jessiman's skill level a bit..you took this as an opportunity to become even more adamant in your incorrect assumptions.

Write all the words you want - but the fact remains McCarron is not even close to being a bust right now as Jessiman was in 2003 - there were a lot more signs with Jessiman...and that's an important factor.

I never said Jessiman was a good skater....or that he had good hands. Yet you have based on what you think you recall being said by Bob McKenzie during the draft. Neither is the case or he'd have made his way into the NHL despite his softness. Average skater, average hands, and soft as butter. Mac doesn't compare to Jessiman at all. Can you get that through your head..possibly? Being an "okay skater for his size" is irrelevant if the player doesn't use that size. Not only is Mac a better skater than Jessiman was..but he uses his size WAY more effectively. Again - that is important!

When you say things like "most agree" McCarron was a mid round pick halfway through..where do you come up with this? "Most what"? Trevor Timmins was telling me in November that he thought McCarron was a first round pick, and I felt the same way. Other scouts that didn't like McCarron as much early on still thought he was a second round pick at worst. I don't know where you come up with this stuff...I understand trying to support your argument, but when it's with complete BS...hard to take you seriously.

Yes Timmins drafted Fischer SEVEN years ago - every team has had a bust prospect over the past decade. Doesn't make the odds of McCarron being a bust any higher than any other prospect. Fischer was thought to be a reach by many other NHL scouts at the time..I did not like the pick. That is not the case with McCarron. Now you're throwing Hayden's name in the mix....fill your boots. You didn't see Hayden or McCarron play live last season..but you sure think you have them figured out.

Again - I will relate to you that I talk to several scouting sources quite often in addition to the exhaustive scouting that I do myself. No one outside of the Habs' organization that I've talked to feels the same way about McCarron as they did about Fischer, who was horrible in his draft interviews, was much too skinny, had a terrible shot, was soft, and little offensive upside. There were several warning signs with Fischer - they do not exist with McCarron. Again - a really poor and irrelevant comparison by you. "Well..Trevor busted with a pick 7 years ago..so he must be due with this one too because I liked some other prospect more." Pretty silly logic, and again...grasping at straws.

No discernible weaknesses is a very important point that for whatever reasons you choose to ignore because it doesn't fit your agenda on this. You leave the distinct impression that you are one of the "I told you so" posters on here. You weren't happy with the McCarron pick, so you are going to trash it and predict he is a high risk pick in the hopes of being proven right in a few years.

The many times you mentioned that there is a bust factor with Mac... you failed to add that there is also a bust factor with the top three picks until your last email..perhaps you could have mentioned that before your last email? Of course McCarron may bust if you put it in that perspective..nothing is 100 per cent guaranteed. If that's what you want to hear..there you go.

I didn't want to compare Hurley and Mac..someone else did. Why compare a prospect's play at the start of the season to another one's play at the end? Seriously? That's a pretty silly method...you are grasping at straws with that argument as well.

NHL scouts I talked to that watched Hurley and McCarron play at the end of the season for the most part saw no comparison between the two prospects - McCarron was the much better player. Having to adapt to a new league is one thing..but they don't hide the fact that a player's hands are poor and that he lacks the offensive upside that some scouts thought Hurley had BEFORE he joined the USHL. It became much more noticeable when he played against better competition. McCarron not only outplayed him in the USHL, but he was outstanding at the U-18's.

Hurley didn't improve as the season went on - just the opposite happened..he was exposed. Mac did improve as the season went on, and has improved the past few seasons. That is another encouraging sign, and something the pros look at. Evidently it's not something you find relevant. I can assure you that the fellows that do this for a living do find that extremely important.

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Old
07-22-2013, 10:16 AM
  #400
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