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Old
07-21-2013, 06:15 PM
  #926
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So if the DE busts loose and forces the QB to chuck the ball away or he gets in the backfield and blows up a running play it doesn't count for you because its not tallied as a sack or tackle?

That makes zero sense
You make it sound like Howard was a dominant force of nature.

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07-21-2013, 06:18 PM
  #927
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Greg Marshall is competing with Sams to be the worst coordinator in the league right now. Just brutal play-calling on both sides of the ball so far this year. Sams has been worse though. Marshall just can't make adjustments.
nah, Marshall has been competent. The only coach that has been. The secondary has holes, against the Leos to compound this we also had to start making adjustments to stop run and still didn't. We had personnel, many that weren't making plays. This D, with this personal should be better than it is but a lot of mistakes happening out there.

Dropped coverages, dropped assignments, lost contain, getting blockout out. Those were more the problems then play calling on D.

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07-21-2013, 06:22 PM
  #928
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nah, Marshall has been competent. The only coach that has been. The secondary has holes, against the Leos to compound this we also had to start making adjustments to stop run and still didn't. We had personnel, many that weren't making plays. This D, with this personal should be better than it is but a lot of mistakes happening out there.

Dropped coverages, dropped assignments, lost contain, getting blockout out. Those were more the problems then play calling on D.
I dunno, his playcalling against BC at home last week was pretty poor. Good first half, then when Lulay came out in the second half and started running, Marshall kept calling plays that resulted in our entire D-line getting locked up and unable to keep containment. Part of that is personnel, but part of it is playcalling.

And he was humiliated in the first loss of the season against Cortez's offense.

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07-21-2013, 06:34 PM
  #929
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I dunno, his playcalling against BC at home last week was pretty poor. Good first half, then when Lulay came out in the second half and started running, Marshall kept calling plays that resulted in our entire D-line getting locked up and unable to keep containment. Part of that is personnel, but part of it is playcalling.

And he was humiliated in the first loss of the season against Cortez's offense.
Consider it this way.

The adjustments the Leos made we don't have any answer for. For instance in the first game it was Lulay taking charge and optioning himself as run or pass and confounding the D with that. We just can't cover all the options thrown at us because we don't match up with Leos means that we cheat to one play or the other, cheat to run or pass, and Leos recognize themes, where to exploit. if anything its credit to Marshall that we are throwing some wrinkles at the Leos that confound them for as long as they do. Both games felt inevitable in that we just don't have the D personnel to compete with the Leos.

When people lose the contain its that the D have had to adjust for other plays and can't cover everything. Due primarily due to all of Harris, Arseneaux, Lulay requiring so much focus.
Best we can do is throw stunt at Leos and hope for the best. Hope that they don't read what we are doing. How the players are mismatched and over pursuing. WE don't have one guy on this team that can cover Arseneaux. Not one guy that can successfully key on Harris. We didn't shut anything down. WE had guys getting blocked out all day. Thats just getting beat on the play pure and simple.

Lets say this as well. This game that you saw from Lulay was another picture perfect outing with beautiful throws, right on target and often enough hitting seams perfectly. Sometimes I just sit back and admire it. Many plays last night rather than being frustrated I'm just going man, that was another great pass and read.

When Lulay is on his game like this week theres just no beating him.

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07-21-2013, 06:37 PM
  #930
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Consider it this way.

The adjustments the Leos made we don't have any answer for. For instance in the first game it was Lulay taking charge and optioning himself as run or pass and confounding the D with that. We just can't cover all the options thrown at us because we don't match up with Leos means that we cheat to one play or the other, cheat to run or pass, and Leos recognize themes, where to exploit. if anything its credit to Marshall that we are throwing some wrinkles at the Leos that confound them for as long as they do. Both games felt inevitable in that we just don't have the D personnel to compete with the Leos.

When people lose the contain its that the D have had to adjust for other plays and can't cover everything. Due primarily due to all of Harris, Arseneaux, Lulay requiring so much focus.
Best we can do is throw stunt at Leos and hope for the best. Hope that they don't read what we are doing.

Lets say this as well. This game that you saw from Lulay was another picture perfect outing with beautiful throws, right on target and often enough hitting seams perfectly. Sometimes I just sit back and admire it. Many plays last night rather than being frustrated I'm just going man, that was another great pass and read.

When Lulay is on his game like this week theres just no beating him.
Personnel is definitely a problem. Like I said earlier in this thread a large part of this is on Hervey. But the coaches (all of them) are definitely part of the problem.

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07-21-2013, 06:49 PM
  #931
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Personnel is definitely a problem. Like I said earlier in this thread a large part of this is on Hervey. But the coaches (all of them) are definitely part of the problem.
Reed and Sams are just an embarassment. Marshall, a wiley veteran is managing not to be a joke in the middle of a clown circus. For that anyway, and actually calling some good plays against good teams he gets some credit.

Also, missing from our convo is that after good first halfs, and bad third quarters, the D has been OK in the 4th quarters.

The offense hasn't kept us in games. Losing 17-3 for instance. Reality being we lose that game as soon as the Leos hit the endzone once.

Its gotta be some kind of pressure on the D thinking they have to pitch shutouts on short fields.

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07-21-2013, 06:55 PM
  #932
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Reed and Sams are just an embarassment. Marshall, a wiley veteran is managing not to be a joke in the middle of a clown circus. For that anyway, and actually calling some good plays against good teams he gets some credit.

Also, missing from our convo is that after good first halfs, and bad third quarters, the D has been OK in the 4th quarters.

The offense hasn't kept us in games. Losing 17-3 for instance. Reality being we lose that game as soon as the Leos hit the endzone once.

Its gotta be some kind of pressure on the D thinking they have to pitch shutouts on short fields.
Dunno, still think he was outcoached badly by Cortez all of Game 1, then failed to make adjustments against Chapdelaine in Game 3, then was probably just out of options in Game 4.

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07-21-2013, 07:38 PM
  #933
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Did you just ignore my previous post to that, where I acknowledged that the team is struggling because of poor coaching AND poor personnel?
No I focused on the one where you said the play calling was "brutal"

Please give examples where the play calling was in your words "brutal"

What I saw was a lot of decent run calls, some really nice attempts to get Hugh the ball in space (which when they didn't work were do to blocking), a trick play which worked really well and a lot of plays blown up by bad OLine play or bad blocking.

The one poster focused on the 2nd and inches call atthe end of the 3rd Qtr, yes maybe there are better options to get that half yard but for all we know the Eskimos might have been planning to go for it on 3rd down as well until McCarty completely missed his block and allowed Charles to be tackled in the backfield for a 3-yard loss.

You can't scheme for poor execution

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07-21-2013, 07:45 PM
  #934
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Ricky Ray trade, the Eric Tilman gift that keeps giving and giving(us the shaft). Could possibly be the worst trade of all time for all professional sport. Ray breaking records and winning more cups and the EE franchise has been set back for years. Just ****ing awful.

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07-21-2013, 07:52 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
No I focused on the one where you said the play calling was "brutal"

Please give examples where the play calling was in your words "brutal"

What I saw was a lot of decent run calls, some really nice attempts to get Hugh the ball in space (which when they didn't work were do to blocking), a trick play which worked really well and a lot of plays blown up by bad OLine play or bad blocking.

The one poster focused on the 2nd and inches call atthe end of the 3rd Qtr, yes maybe there are better options to get that half yard but for all we know the Eskimos might have been planning to go for it on 3rd down as well until McCarty completely missed his block and allowed Charles to be tackled in the backfield for a 3-yard loss.

You can't scheme for poor execution
On offense:

- Most of the entire game against the Riders, particularly the pass on the last play of the first half
- Quarterback draw against Lions this week which resulted in no gain
- Charles run play as mentioned on 2nd and inches
- Overall gameplanning -- going conservative when you need yards quickly, and trying to stretch the field when you should be trying to get a first down first deep in your own half

On defense:

- Most of the entire game against the Riders, particularly when Cortez kept calling plays designed to counter pressure and blitz, and Marshall kept sending it allowing big gains against
- Entire second half against the Lions in Game 3, which I've talked about in previous posts on this page

Keep in mind we're only 4 games in - a good coaching staff should not have this many notable examples of bad playcalling or game-planning so soon into the season

Now a large part of this is personnel, I won't disagree with you there. Both coordinators are limited by what their personnel are capable of. But the playcalling has not helped the players use their strengths to their advantage either.

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07-21-2013, 08:18 PM
  #936
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Ricky Ray trade, the Eric Tilman gift that keeps giving and giving(us the shaft). Could possibly be the worst trade of all time for all professional sport. Ray breaking records and winning more cups and the EE franchise has been set back for years. Just ****ing awful.
to be fair, the esks were a joke before ray left. his leaving just compounded the problem.

from the president and ceo, to all management and coaching. the esks have been the joke of the league for 8 years now. EIGHT.

Jones and danny mac rode the team Higgins built to a grey cup and proceeded to then drive a once proud franchise into the dirt.
shows how pathetic is had been that nobody has been able to change it.

would help if we had a competent president and ceo who knew something about football. heck. those idiots couldn't even get the colour of the new seats right, let alone figure out who to hire and how to build a team.

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07-21-2013, 08:28 PM
  #937
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Sorry, I don't buy losing RR as a turning point in a downward spiral.

We haven't been good since we won our last Grey Cup. It seems like '05 and '06 doomed both the Oilers and Esks.

I still don't understand how we get smacked around after the half and have not one GD Answer. That's coaching or lack of coaching if you ask me.

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07-21-2013, 10:08 PM
  #938
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Ricky Ray trade, the Eric Tilman gift that keeps giving and giving(us the shaft). Could possibly be the worst trade of all time for all professional sport. Ray breaking records and winning more cups and the EE franchise has been set back for years. Just ****ing awful.
until the Esks get to respectability and get to a Grey Cup, that trade will haunt us

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07-21-2013, 10:11 PM
  #939
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to be fair, the esks were a joke before ray left. his leaving just compounded the problem.

from the president and ceo, to all management and coaching. the esks have been the joke of the league for 8 years now. EIGHT.

Jones and danny mac rode the team Higgins built to a grey cup and proceeded to then drive a once proud franchise into the dirt.
shows how pathetic is had been that nobody has been able to change it.

would help if we had a competent president and ceo who knew something about football. heck. those idiots couldn't even get the colour of the new seats right, let alone figure out who to hire and how to build a team.
The Esks weren't great but they weren't a joke. 11-7 tied for the lead in the west and made it to the western final. There was a lot of optimism going into the next year. Then it happened.

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07-21-2013, 10:12 PM
  #940
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Sorry, I don't buy losing RR as a turning point in a downward spiral.

We haven't been good since we won our last Grey Cup. It seems like '05 and '06 doomed both the Oilers and Esks.

I still don't understand how we get smacked around after the half and have not one GD Answer. That's coaching or lack of coaching if you ask me.
The football club was good two years ago. 11-7 is a very, very good football record.

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07-21-2013, 10:18 PM
  #941
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The Esks weren't great but they weren't a joke. 11-7 tied for the lead in the west and made it to the western final. There was a lot of optimism going into the next year. Then it happened.
Exactly. The team was on the up and up during Reed's first season as coach. At this juncture I don't think there's any denying that Eric Tillman, David Braley and the CFL conspired to royally **** this team for the benefit of the Toronto Argonauts (and by extension the rest of the CFL) and their 100th anniversary.

I love the sport of Canadian football but this is a very, very funny league. It doesn't play by the same rules as the rest of the professional leagues in North America. That much is obvious with Braley owning two franchises. It's absurd.

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07-21-2013, 10:18 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by AJGass4 View Post
Sorry, I don't buy losing RR as a turning point in a downward spiral.

We haven't been good since we won our last Grey Cup. It seems like '05 and '06 doomed both the Oilers and Esks.

I still don't understand how we get smacked around after the half and have not one GD Answer. That's coaching or lack of coaching if you ask me.
I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Ray was one of the few pieces keeping the Eskies even moderately respectable. Trading a future HoF QB for the return we got set this team back a long time. A top QB is the most important part of a good football team. I'd say it's actually near impossible to have a good team without one. Now we're in the search for another one. And those searches can take years.

Obviously the management of the team sucks horribly. From the president on down. But dismissing the Ray deal as inconsequential is a bit of a reach, imo.

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07-21-2013, 10:40 PM
  #943
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At least we didn't get shut out.

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07-21-2013, 11:54 PM
  #944
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Even in the 11-7 year, our offense was one of the worst in the league especially after Labour Day. As long as Kavis Reed and the morons he employs as co-ordinators are running the show, no offense is ever going to succeed regardless of personnel. Good play calling has made a lot of very average football players look great over the years in the CFL, NFL, or any football league. Horrible play calling can't be overcome even by great QB's. See Ray during the Maciocia years, in which we literally wasted 5 prime years of a HOF-caliber QB. We've spent the last 2 years and now this one wasting some damn good talent on the defensive side of the ball.

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07-22-2013, 12:11 AM
  #945
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Our O-line offers little to no protection, our QB is green as Irish peat, our receivers consistently drop catchable balls, our secondary couldnt cover a one-legged senior citizen, our kicker is inconsistent and our coach has the IQ of a shoe, our GM has no experience and no clue and the BOG has no football sense or acumen.

The problems run deep and wide with this football club and no one thing is the culprit. It is a systemic problem that will likely continue for a decade if not more. We are the Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the WC. The incompetence rivals that of the hockey team.

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07-22-2013, 07:57 AM
  #946
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Sometimes I just have to respond to revisionist view. There was no optimism by the end of 2011.

11-7 team yeah, one that was going absolutely nowhere and nobody expected it to. People at the time, and anybody could bring up the thread, were surprised to even win a playoff game against Calgary.

Lets look at that year. WE were 6th in offense with the vaunted RR at QB. Only two clubs in the league had WORSE offence. Curiously we played the Argos at home that year(a horrible club) and barely beat them by 1pt. For anybody in attendance it was a hopeless day. A 4-0 team had just jumped the shark and showed the first sign of futility that would rear its head that year.
On cue, that horrible performance against the Argos sets the tone for a collapse. A 5-0 club proceeds to lose the next 3 games. Get annihilated by Winnipeg, Montreal (27-4) and BC(36-1) the latter being the single worst QB performance(by RR) that I had ever witnessed from the Eskimos in my life. In two games the Esks offense had scored 5 pts. Afairc the one FG was setup by a D turnover. ANYBODY at the time considered this team absolutely pathetic and were going off the rails here how lousy the club was. There were comments the team might not win another game. It seemed like a complete collapse.

The Eskimos lurched along to where they were 7-6 at the start of October(remember this was a club that somehow opened 5-0 with those days long past) The Esks then fashioned some semblence of prosperity by beating the Roughriders twice (an awful club) barely beating the Argos, and getting by Winnipeg. They also lost their 3rd game in a row against the Lions setting a pretty clear tone in 3 games in which they were waxed by the Leos every time.

Lets be clear here, the Esks that year were 3-0 against a hopeless Riders club, barely edged the Argos twice, and were not exactly world beaters.

WE won the season series against the Stamps but had lost the last home game against them. We tied them in standings but got the home playoff start. Lets remember the Esks had started the season 5-0, and the Stamps had started the season 0-5. Stamps had recovered their season while the Esks were dog paddling. Eskimos somehow managed to get by the Stamps that day on a solid D performance that stifled the Stamps and gave the Esks offense endless opportunities. RR has a very ordinary day. Really an awful second half. Stamps were actually in control of the game in the first half, had scored the only TD, and were threatening another when Tate dropped back to pass, inexplicably fumbled the ball, and Munoz rumbled 77yds for the TD. It was the first sign of life the Esks showed that day. Bowman then made a great play on a routine swing pass to go run 56yds for a TD and the game was ours. RR passed for 200 yds that day. A hundred of it were YAC yds.

Esks trot into BC, to whom they've been trounced 3 times in a row, and they don't have a chance. Lulay quickly shows what a QB on top of his game looks like and its 26-3 by the half, the game is over. The Eskimos offense is pathetic in the game and can't do anything. The D stops the game from being a complete legendary drubbing. The esks score a couple meaningless TD's after the game is long over and make the final score line a more respectable 40-23. The Esks had been out of this game for a longtime. RR had just completed his time here having played 2 very ordinary playoff games. He was awful in the Leos game and completely outmatched in every way by the upstart Lulay.

That was that season folks and it certainly wasn't optimism in these parts. Although people will tell you that now.

The league, and the West, was not all that strong that year. Calgary had not much of a club, only Leos and Als really offered up all that much opposition that year. One of those bad years in the CFL where its hard not to have a winning record. This didn't separate that we were a world apart from the only two good clubs in the league that year. To wit we lost 6 games in a row to those two good clubs that year.


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07-22-2013, 08:38 AM
  #947
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Thank you Replacement, I was going to say about the exact same thing.

I remember getting by in some of those games and when we were 5-0, I still thought we were not a great football team.

We fluked off a playoff win against the Stamps and got humiliated in the final. That year, many teams struggled and that's why we looked half decent.

We look like a team with absolutely no purpose or weapons to speak of. It's almost like watching a bloody high school game. You are never sure if a field goal will be made, a pass will be completed and the tackling, at times, is worse than high school football. Throw in some very stupid penalties on a regular basis and it's just so hard to watch. (Some of the calls were ridiculous.)

We are in trouble and from game to game, I see no improvement. I feel like we are the least competitive team in the league right now and that's sad considering there are only seven others to compete against.

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07-22-2013, 10:21 AM
  #948
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So the moral of the story is what if you have mediocre football talent but a HOF QB your team will go 11-7 with a playoff win.

Take away the QB and you get your 2013 Edmonton Eskimos.

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07-22-2013, 10:26 AM
  #949
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Thank you Replacement, I was going to say about the exact same thing.

I remember getting by in some of those games and when we were 5-0, I still thought we were not a great football team.

We fluked off a playoff win against the Stamps and got humiliated in the final. That year, many teams struggled and that's why we looked half decent.

We look like a team with absolutely no purpose or weapons to speak of. It's almost like watching a bloody high school game. You are never sure if a field goal will be made, a pass will be completed and the tackling, at times, is worse than high school football. Throw in some very stupid penalties on a regular basis and it's just so hard to watch. (Some of the calls were ridiculous.)

We are in trouble and from game to game, I see no improvement. I feel like we are the least competitive team in the league right now and that's sad considering there are only seven others to compete against.
You're welcome. I mean I was here on this board hearing the comments at the time. There were concerns expressed with the football club. It was whine and roses.

The 36-1 drubbing at home was the Patrick Roy in the Montreal forum moment. The infamous 9-1 loss where the home crowd boos their vanquished hero.

It happens. A disconnect occurs between fanbase and player, between team and org and player.

A good player RR, didn't care anymore if he was here or gone and everybody at the game noted that. RR got boo'ed off the field easily 10 times in the game. Again this not being some pundits online, this being actual people paying to be at the actual games.

I was there, I was completely disgusted.

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07-22-2013, 10:28 AM
  #950
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On offense:

- Most of the entire game against the Riders, particularly the pass on the last play of the first half
- Quarterback draw against Lions this week which resulted in no gain
- Charles run play as mentioned on 2nd and inches
- Overall gameplanning -- going conservative when you need yards quickly, and trying to stretch the field when you should be trying to get a first down first deep in your own half

On defense:

- Most of the entire game against the Riders, particularly when Cortez kept calling plays designed to counter pressure and blitz, and Marshall kept sending it allowing big gains against
- Entire second half against the Lions in Game 3, which I've talked about in previous posts on this page

Keep in mind we're only 4 games in - a good coaching staff should not have this many notable examples of bad playcalling or game-planning so soon into the season

Now a large part of this is personnel, I won't disagree with you there. Both coordinators are limited by what their personnel are capable of. But the playcalling has not helped the players use their strengths to their advantage either.
The amount of pre-snap penalties this team takes is also very disturbing, and it has been this way since Reed has been the coach. Those types of undisciplined things kill you before you even get the chance to work a play. That, and the inability to tackle or at least find people to perform that very important skill. I don't know how many guys continue to have a ball carrier right in their grasp and fail to bring him down.

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