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The Lars Eller Thread - Great or Greatest Dane Edition

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Old
07-20-2013, 10:00 PM
  #1001
Watsatheo
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
This is why I dislike using this short season as a baseline.

Unless of course you think Kunitz is best LW in the game. Most goals, points and +- from a LW. Superstar? Not really.

I don't blame the person you quoted for wanting to see more than a half season of success.

That being said, if Eller continues the pace then we have a solid player on our hands.
The person he quoted didn't suggest that though. He capped Eller as 3rd liner based on his opinion of his abilities. Seems Eller has this '3rd line upside' sentiment stuck to him as Subban has the 'no defense' stuck to him. Yet somehow, year after year, he keeps improving. Has draft pedigree. Has offensive success in leagues outside NHL mirroring the production he had in 12/13.

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07-20-2013, 10:24 PM
  #1002
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I've always believed Eller had the potential to be a first line center; since he was drafted and said it after we acquired him. Knew it would take time though. Never thought he would be a superstar, but he has all the tools to be a complete player in all zones. And I think he has been improving every year and is still not to where he can peak yet.

With that said, you are correct. He has to continue to progress (which he'll need the minutes and offensive/pp opportunities), do it over a full season, and then consistently do it. If developed right we'll have a core piece to build with, joining Galchenyuk, Subban, Price, and other top prospects.
I think we all hoped he would be a top 6 center when we gave up Halak for him. I don't believe he'll be better than Plekanec or a #1 center but I won't bash your optimism. I hope you're right.

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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
The person he quoted didn't suggest that though. He capped Eller as 3rd liner based on his opinion of his abilities. Seems Eller has this '3rd line upside' sentiment stuck to him as Subban has the 'no defense' stuck to him. Yet somehow, year after year, he keeps improving. Has draft pedigree. Has offensive success in leagues outside NHL mirroring the production he had in 12/13.
He capped eller as an elite 3rd liner on a contender mind you. Which, I don't disagree with per se. In Pittsburgh, he'd be #3(Maybe tied in 3 with Sutter). In Boston, #3, in LA(#3 too I believe, not passing kopitar and Richards). In Chicago, before they traded bolland? #3.

So not really an insult IMO. The capping of his upside might be seen that way but I personally don't see Eller as a big time center either. He had a good year though, I guess I just want to wait to see a full season before I say he's reached a certain status. I also feel that way about Subban, c'mon, he may not even be a Norris finalist next year. Who knows. Even the Kunitz example I presented. I personally want to wait before I get too excited.

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07-20-2013, 11:37 PM
  #1003
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
This is why I dislike using this short season as a baseline.

Unless of course you think Kunitz is best LW in the game. Most goals, points and +- from a LW. Superstar? Not really.

I don't blame the person you quoted for wanting to see more than a half season of success.

That being said, if Eller continues the pace then we have a solid player on our hands.
Tall center can get 50+ points and play a two way game.
Ahead of Bolland in my book unless you expect him to drop.
His progression has been very constant and what we see on the ice can not be denied.
I do not expect him to slow down and he was very good with Galchenyuk.
He improved all season long: 9 points in his first 18 games, 21 points in his last 28 games (pace of 70 points), 14 points in his last 15 games (pace of 76 points).
Is it too much to expect him to have 50+ next season?

50+ points with no PP, two-way player.
Among the centers that have more points than Eller, how many got no PP?
BTW, 22nd in ESP.
Tlusty, Galchenyuk and Seguin are listed as center.
So he is 19th in esp among centers.

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Old
07-20-2013, 11:49 PM
  #1004
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Tall center can get 50+ points and play a two way game.
Ahead of Bolland in my book unless you expect him to drop.
His progression has been very constant and what we see on the ice can not be denied.
I do not expect him to slow down and he was very good with Galchenyuk.
He improved all season long: 9 points in his first 18 games, 21 points in his last 28 games (pace of 70 points), 14 points in his last 15 games (pace of 76 points).
Is it too much to expect him to have 50+ next season?

50+ points with no PP, two-way player.
Among the centers that have more points than Eller, how many got no PP?
BTW, 22nd in ESP.
Tlusty, Galchenyuk and Seguin are listed as center.
So he is 19th in esp among centers.
I think this is one of the reasons he needs to be given PP time next season. He has been improving each year and we need to continue to develop him as a core piece moving forward.

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07-21-2013, 01:12 PM
  #1005
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Tall center can get 50+ points and play a two way game.
Ahead of Bolland in my book unless you expect him to drop.
His progression has been very constant and what we see on the ice can not be denied.
I do not expect him to slow down and he was very good with Galchenyuk.
He improved all season long: 9 points in his first 18 games, 21 points in his last 28 games (pace of 70 points), 14 points in his last 15 games (pace of 76 points).
Is it too much to expect him to have 50+ next season?

50+ points with no PP, two-way player.
Among the centers that have more points than Eller, how many got no PP?
BTW, 22nd in ESP.
Tlusty, Galchenyuk and Seguin are listed as center.
So he is 19th in esp among centers.
He hasn't hit 50+ points yet. Unless again, Kunitz has hit 40+ goals and 85+ points.

It is not too much to expect, but he hasn't done it. Worse case scenario is that if he's really a 50+ point player he'll just hit 50+ points next season and there won't be an issue at all.

FWIW, I don't take much from last year's performances. Not just Eller. As I said before, Kunitz, Subban, Eller, Kadri, Tlusty, etc... may not keep same PPG. In some cases like Kunitz it's more obvious but the point remains. Prefer to evaluate over a full season personally. I realize many will disagree but I'm not ready to say Subban will hit 80 points either. I'm not sure he'll hit 65.

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Old
07-22-2013, 07:16 AM
  #1006
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On his offensive game perhaps, but his hockey IQ defensively is pretty good. I just think it's more a technical thing than a mental thing, he has to make that extra move in order to pass or shoot. He's been doing that since he was a little kid in Denmark I bet and he had success, but now he's in the NHL and needs to adjust. He gets how to create passing lanes with his stick handling coming into the zone, but takes a bit too long to decide which play to execute.
Offensive and defensive hockey IQ are one and the same. Eller is effective defensively because he is bigger and faster than most of his opponents. When you combine this with his tenacity and puck pursuit, he can be a real pain to deal with.

The reason that players with high hockey IQ's may not always score is that they often lack the skills to complete the plays that are developing. A smart player will recognize this and not risk turning the puck over by overextending his limitations. You basically reiterated what I was saying about Eller, as his skill buys him time but his vision takes a while to catch up with the play as it unfolds. This is why he will never be a #1 center.......he may be a good #2 or a great #3 but he is definitely limited by his lack of vision/hockey IQ.

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Old
07-22-2013, 09:31 AM
  #1007
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I think we should do some brainstorming for the title of the new thread.

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Old
07-22-2013, 09:51 AM
  #1008
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Offensive and defensive hockey IQ are one and the same. Eller is effective defensively because he is bigger and faster than most of his opponents. When you combine this with his tenacity and puck pursuit, he can be a real pain to deal with.

The reason that players with high hockey IQ's may not always score is that they often lack the skills to complete the plays that are developing. A smart player will recognize this and not risk turning the puck over by overextending his limitations. You basically reiterated what I was saying about Eller, as his skill buys him time but his vision takes a while to catch up with the play as it unfolds. This is why he will never be a #1 center.......he may be a good #2 or a great #3 but he is definitely limited by his lack of vision/hockey IQ.
Take into considerations his age, lack of offensive development and his 2 years wasted on defensive duties (with Martin) and playing with rookies and grinders might not have help either.

This guy put up 29 points in 21 games while playing junior international hockey....must have some great hockey IQ in him. I think he is just getting it back under Therrien.

I don't picture him as a 1st line center but still, as for a center, he ended up being the:

37th center for points
22nd center for ES points
24th in assists

The guy played with a 18yo rookie and some grinders (Prust, Armstrong, Dumont) and spent the first 1/4 of this season on the bench, fourth line, on the wings....and without powerplay time, he almost gave us first line offensive production.

22nd for hits (For a center)
19th for blocked shots
57th for shots

All this at 23 years old......is it so out of this world to think that with 2-3 more years of developpement, better linesmate, better ice-time and powerplay time....we're talking about an Elite 2nd line center in the making???

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Old
07-22-2013, 11:06 AM
  #1009
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Take into considerations his age, lack of offensive development and his 2 years wasted on defensive duties (with Martin) and playing with rookies and grinders might not have help either.

This guy put up 29 points in 21 games while playing junior international hockey....must have some great hockey IQ in him. I think he is just getting it back under Therrien.

I don't picture him as a 1st line center but still, as for a center, he ended up being the:

37th center for points
22nd center for ES points
24th in assists

The guy played with a 18yo rookie and some grinders (Prust, Armstrong, Dumont) and spent the first 1/4 of this season on the bench, fourth line, on the wings....and without powerplay time, he almost gave us first line offensive production.

22nd for hits (For a center)
19th for blocked shots
57th for shots

All this at 23 years old......is it so out of this world to think that with 2-3 more years of developpement, better linesmate, better ice-time and powerplay time....we're talking about an Elite 2nd line center in the making???
I like Eller but there is no denying his lack of vision on the ice. It is the sole reason that he stalled in St.Louis and was deemed expendable. I am glad we have him but people on here need to acknowledge his limitations.

As for the junior stats.......plenty of players with very suspect hockey IQ have put up big numbers in junior.

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Old
07-22-2013, 11:19 AM
  #1010
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I like Eller but there is no denying his lack of vision on the ice. It is the sole reason that he stalled in St.Louis and was deemed expendable. I am glad we have him but people on here need to acknowledge his limitations.

As for the junior stats.......plenty of players with very suspect hockey IQ have put up big numbers in junior.
I think that the biggest question mark will be how that hit affected him.
He'll either become gun shy, or shrug it off and continue on with his game.

I expected Pacioretty to have issues after his big injury, but he proved me wrong.

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Old
07-22-2013, 03:34 PM
  #1011
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I like Eller but there is no denying his lack of vision on the ice. It is the sole reason that he stalled in St.Louis and was deemed expendable. I am glad we have him but people on here need to acknowledge his limitations.

As for the junior stats.......plenty of players with very suspect hockey IQ have put up big numbers in junior.
I'm not denying it, i'm simply saying that Eller did have enough IQ when he was younger, and in his only year in the AHL, he did very well (57 pts in 70 games).

Considering that his 22 assists are among the best in the league for a center last season.....mayby his vision and hockey IQ aren't really that bad....it's just that we'Re not used to see a rougher type of center (Gomez, DD, Plek, Koivu did all have great hockey IQ.....but that was about the only thing they've got....Eller isn't the same type of player)

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Old
07-22-2013, 03:38 PM
  #1012
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I like Eller but there is no denying his lack of vision on the ice. It is the sole reason that he stalled in St.Louis and was deemed expendable. I am glad we have him but people on here need to acknowledge his limitations.

As for the junior stats.......plenty of players with very suspect hockey IQ have put up big numbers in junior.
When did he stall in St. Louis, exactly? When he had mono in Peoria? Or during his 2 game stint in St. Louis?

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Old
07-22-2013, 04:47 PM
  #1013
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
When did he stall in St. Louis, exactly? When he had mono in Peoria? Or during his 2 game stint in St. Louis?
Lack of vision and low hockey IQ?

Bad post is bad.

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Old
07-22-2013, 05:11 PM
  #1014
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When did he stall in St. Louis, exactly? When he had mono in Peoria? Or during his 2 game stint in St. Louis?
Be it as it may, Eller still has limitations. We just don't know what they are yet. I think his shot is meh, but it's not like you can't work on it. So who knows, this year will be very telling.

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07-22-2013, 05:18 PM
  #1015
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Be it as it may, Eller still has limitations. We just don't know what they are yet. I think his shot is meh, but it's not like you can't work on it. So who knows, this year will be very telling.
He's got a good shot, just never gets it off. Whether that is because of hockey sense or confidence problems, well I guess we'll find out.

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07-22-2013, 05:34 PM
  #1016
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Eller's vision or hockey IQ is not his weakness. His tendency of over-handling the puck is. He's one of our most creative players and best playmakers IMO. The more his offensive role becomes important in the team, the more you're gonna see from him. Just like last year, many people didn't see his game coming together, and he was getting even better during the playoffs.

There's no doubt in my mind that once he'll adjust, he'll be a legit top 6 centreman.

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07-22-2013, 06:02 PM
  #1017
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Originally Posted by YUHeffToBMad View Post
Eller's vision or hockey IQ is not his weakness. His tendency of over-handling the puck is. He's one of our most creative players and best playmakers IMO. The more his offensive role becomes important in the team, the more you're gonna see from him. Just like last year, many people didn't see his game coming together, and he was getting even better during the playoffs.

There's no doubt in my mind that once he'll adjust, he'll be a legit top 6 centreman.
Good post. I think the thing about Eller is he would be reaching his full potential with a playmaking winger and a shoot-first winger. Eller is the balance to a top6 line. He carries the defensive side of the game, while retrieving and protecting the puck with his size and incredible hands. He just needs more offensively minded players (and the icetime) to break out. Look how well he was doing by the end of the season. Find and put him players that go to the right areas and have a natural chemistry with him in terms of knowing what he likes to do, and I'm convinced he won't have the same problem of holding on to the puck that long anymore. I have a feeling that if DD was his LW both would succeed tremendously.

As for the future, I'd love to see him with one of Collberg/McCarron/Gallagher. Eller should be a huge piece for us moving forward, it all depends if they let him step up and be the man. If the habs brass unleash him a bit, I could see him peaking anywhere between #1b centre and a high-end #2

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Old
07-22-2013, 06:26 PM
  #1018
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Good post. I think the thing about Eller is he would be reaching his full potential with a playmaking winger and a shoot-first winger. Eller is the balance to a top6 line. He carries the defensive side of the game, while retrieving and protecting the puck with his size and incredible hands. He just needs more offensively minded players (and the icetime) to break out. Look how well he was doing by the end of the season. Find and put him players that go to the right areas and have a natural chemistry with him in terms of knowing what he likes to do, and I'm convinced he won't have the same problem of holding on to the puck that long anymore. I have a feeling that if DD was his LW both would succeed tremendously.

As for the future, I'd love to see him with one of Collberg/McCarron/Gallagher. Eller should be a huge piece for us moving forward, it all depends if they let him step up and be the man. If the habs brass unleash him a bit, I could see him peaking anywhere between #1b centre and a high-end #2
For the short term a line that could have some succes would be :
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gionta

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Old
07-22-2013, 06:30 PM
  #1019
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Originally Posted by YUHeffToBMad View Post
Eller's vision or hockey IQ is not his weakness. His tendency of over-handling the puck is. He's one of our most creative players and best playmakers IMO. The more his offensive role becomes important in the team, the more you're gonna see from him. Just like last year, many people didn't see his game coming together, and he was getting even better during the playoffs.

There's no doubt in my mind that once he'll adjust, he'll be a legit top 6 centreman.
yup, sometimes he tries to do too much. He's done nothing but get better since being with us. Hope to God that that trend will continue. Who knows what his ceiling is.

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Good post. I think the thing about Eller is he would be reaching his full potential with a playmaking winger and a shoot-first winger. Eller is the balance to a top6 line. He carries the defensive side of the game, while retrieving and protecting the puck with his size and incredible hands. He just needs more offensively minded players (and the icetime) to break out. Look how well he was doing by the end of the season. Find and put him players that go to the right areas and have a natural chemistry with him in terms of knowing what he likes to do, and I'm convinced he won't have the same problem of holding on to the puck that long anymore. I have a feeling that if DD was his LW both would succeed tremendously.

As for the future, I'd love to see him with one of Collberg/McCarron/Gallagher. Eller should be a huge piece for us moving forward, it all depends if they let him step up and be the man. If the habs brass unleash him a bit, I could see him peaking anywhere between #1b centre and a high-end #2
yup squared. Put DD on the wing with Eller and Galchenyuk and that could be a dynamite line. Galchenyuk should be significantly stronger this season. DD could get his point totals back up and possibly make him tradeable again. I really really hope this line happens. It makes too much sense to not happen. I don't want Briere on the wing.

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