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07-21-2013, 11:05 PM
  #451
Edler Von Gud
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So why is Dickey's HR and walk rates up so much this year compared to previous years? and why is his GO/AO down so much? Is it just a case of him pitching too high in the zone or his knuckle ball not having as much downward life? I expected some jump in numbers going from a pitchers park and with the dh but the numbers are ridiculous.

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07-21-2013, 11:10 PM
  #452
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Uhh, Jose Reyes and Melky Cabrera?

The players suck. AA is going to get the retroactive blame, but we all agreed at the start of the season that he assembled a good team, and it was up to the guys with the bats and gloves to get the job done.

Blame Johnson, Dickey, and Morrow. Those 3 guys are the reason the Jays are under performing.
I blame the team from top to bottom, the coaching staff, managers, gms, even the guy selling hot dogs at ridiculously high prices. This season has been a complete cluster****. Disappointment doesn't even begin to touch this.

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07-22-2013, 06:42 AM
  #453
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Melky doesn't have a good OBP in his non steroid years.

AA made some risky moves and bet on some guys having bounce back years or developing more. He deserves some blame.
What are you talking about? His first full year he had a 360 OBP? Not to mention steroids don't help you get on base.. They aren't magic.

His OBP shot up last year. Well that's a surprise given he played in San Fran. Hard to hit the ball out there but more places to put the ball

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07-22-2013, 06:48 AM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Edler Von Gud View Post
So why is Dickey's HR and walk rates up so much this year compared to previous years? and why is his GO/AO down so much? Is it just a case of him pitching too high in the zone or his knuckle ball not having as much downward life? I expected some jump in numbers going from a pitchers park and with the dh but the numbers are ridiculous.
He's lost some mph on his fastball (I don't think his knuckler has been as hard either). While he doesn't need his fastball often, when he does, a low 80 mph fastball is easy to hit for big leaguers.

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07-22-2013, 08:01 AM
  #455
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He's lost some mph on his fastball (I don't think his knuckler has been as hard either). While he doesn't need his fastball often, when he does, a low 80 mph fastball is easy to hit for big leaguers.
it is amazing how when he does try and sneak a fastball in to the batter it gets jacked out of the park...hitters must be picking up on something to know when its coming

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07-22-2013, 08:08 AM
  #456
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One of the most frustrating things for me is the inablility to get the timely hits.

During the streak, they were cashing in their risp often and consistently.

I realize the starting pitching has been a concern, but it's so frustrating watching bad hitters.

The bottom of the lineup needs to be gutted.

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07-22-2013, 08:09 AM
  #457
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lawrie has hardly played this year and he's hitting at the bottom of the order, i dont think he has had any impact on the outcome of any games other than the game on saturday when he made a couple of mistakes at a position he doesnt even play at, i dont fault him for this, the jays should make the defensive transition at the beginning of the year, not in mid season against an east rival out of panic, i'm chosing to keep him out of this conversation, yeah he's been terrible at the plate but perhaps he needs time to get his swing going, he didnt even have a proper spring trainer, look at maicer took him forever but he is clicking..i think people are losing patience with lawrie because of his attitude..i can see past that... me = one of the few lawrie supporters left

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07-22-2013, 08:16 AM
  #458
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it is amazing how when he does try and sneak a fastball in to the batter it gets jacked out of the park...hitters must be picking up on something to know when its coming
Grips are different. Knuckleballs are gripped with your fingernails so when it's thrown all a hitter can see is your knuckles above the baseball, hence the name knuckleball. So when all you throw is a low 80s fastball, you're living with danger. Most can throw low- to-mid 90s so there's a good 10 mph difference which is huge. He's lost 2-3 mph on it this year which is bad for a pitcher. Same reason Verlander hasn't been Verlander, he's lost a couple mph too but he has more pitches than Dickey does obviously. Players have also been patient with Dickey. Guys in the NL weren't. Hard for a knuckleballer to consistently throw strikes.

Then look at the difference in the stadiums, massive difference.


Last edited by mapes: 07-22-2013 at 08:21 AM.
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07-22-2013, 08:21 AM
  #459
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lawrie has hardly played this year and he's hitting at the bottom of the order, i dont think he has had any impact on the outcome of any games other than the game on saturday when he made a couple of mistakes at a position he doesnt even play at, i dont fault him for this, the jays should make the defensive transition at the beginning of the year, not in mid season against an east rival out of panic, i'm chosing to keep him out of this conversation, yeah he's been terrible at the plate but perhaps he needs time to get his swing going, he didnt even have a proper spring trainer, look at maicer took him forever but he is clicking..i think people are losing patience with lawrie because of his attitude..i can see past that... me = one of the few lawrie supporters left
I'm a Lawrie supporter, only jersey I own but he needs to mature. I don't get the transition to second though. His bat hasn't been there but atleast he'd help on D.

It's very tough to learn a position like 2B midseason. Yes I realize he used to play there but it was years ago and he was bad at it. Double plays are especially hard. You have to catch, turn and throw with barely looking at your target.

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07-22-2013, 08:51 AM
  #460
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07-22-2013, 09:17 AM
  #461
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Originally Posted by MrG View Post
One of the most frustrating things for me is the inablility to get the timely hits.

During the streak, they were cashing in their risp often and consistently.

I realize the starting pitching has been a concern, but it's so frustrating watching bad hitters.

The bottom of the lineup needs to be gutted.
I see this team playing buddy ball. Perfect example last night with Jose up in the 9th I don't care if you are Babe Ruth you have a job to do as a pro and get that guy to 3rd base. What happens is there is no accountability from the Gm or manager they are all too happy playing buddy ball "go for it Jose try and hit the ball out of the park 10 miles"or awe shucks you know we have had some chances but nothing came thru

It's that laissez faire attitude that is killing this team there is no accountability by the manager or gm to tell these guys if you can't play fundamental baseball, act like a pro then we will ship you out.

This has been happening all year and until management takes a stance and demands more from the players instead of just being buddy buddy with them it will not change.

Quit making excuses like well you know Burhele just had 1 or 2 bad innings or Dickey had one bad inning and other than that pitched alright (OK).......NO NO NO it's no OK make them accountable for it.

Frustrating watching these guys party and laugh in the dugout down 13 games in the division.

Look at teams like the Rays, O's who have managers that demand and receive respect and demand their players play smart fundamental ball. Look at teams like the Cardinals while Matheny is a new manager this year they have pro's playing that demand the game be played the right way (molina, Holliday, Wainwright, Carpenter) these teams are good for that reason either management or players take control of the team and play the right way.


Last edited by ryno23: 07-22-2013 at 09:27 AM.
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07-22-2013, 10:04 AM
  #462
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http://www.fangraphs.com/not/blue-ja...t-lost-season/

Everything in this article was right

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07-22-2013, 10:20 AM
  #463
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post

Frustrating watching these guys party and laugh in the dugout down 13 games in the division.

Look at teams like the Rays, O's who have managers that demand and receive respect and demand their players play smart fundamental ball. Look at teams like the Cardinals while Matheny is a new manager this year they have pro's playing that demand the game be played the right way (molina, Holliday, Wainwright, Carpenter) these teams are good for that reason either management or players take control of the team and play the right way.

Joe Maddon actually went on record saying he doesn't care at all if his team has fun and plays around as long as they give it 100% on the field.

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07-22-2013, 10:34 AM
  #464
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This team sucks.

I'm usually so optimistic. These guys blow.

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07-22-2013, 10:45 AM
  #465
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What are you talking about? His first full year he had a 360 OBP? Not to mention steroids don't help you get on base.. They aren't magic.

His OBP shot up last year. Well that's a surprise given he played in San Fran. Hard to hit the ball out there but more places to put the ball
I believe steroids do help you get on base. His average was 60 points higher than his career average during his steroid year. After his first year his OBP average is somewhere around .320 if you take his steroid year out.

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07-22-2013, 11:06 AM
  #466
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Joe Maddon actually went on record saying he doesn't care at all if his team has fun and plays around as long as they give it 100% on the field.
That is fine but there is an expectation by Maddon on how to play the game and how to be a pro and play fundamental baseball which the Jays lack really lack.

How many times have you seen them not being able to play fundamental baseball this year costing them runs....too many to count.

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07-22-2013, 11:07 AM
  #467
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Was at the game yesterday...not sure if you all would have noticed it at home, but there was a play that bothered me.

During the middle innings, I think like 6 or 7, there was a popup to Izturis for out number three. The problem is, Reyes was off the field before Maicer even made the catch.

The play was basically a gimme, Maicer made the catch, but I was just like wtf. Stay on the field, at least pretend like you're invested in the play.

Also, Joey Bats throwing to Colby warming up in between innings, legit like 50% of his throws he's immediately grabbing his back, stretching it out, rubbing into it. Dunno how bad his back is, but just from watching that game live, seemed like it was bothering him a lot.

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07-22-2013, 11:44 AM
  #468
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I believe steroids do help you get on base. His average was 60 points higher than his career average during his steroid year. After his first year his OBP average is somewhere around .320 if you take his steroid year out.
How so? Explain, rather than "the year he got caught his OBP was higher, therefor steroids!". They don't help plate discipline. he had 36 walks in just 113 games. Thats more walks than he had in 2011 in 40 less games. You also ignore the fact he played in SF. Bigger gaps. It was his only year in SF.

Next people will argue steroids help you play defence.

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07-22-2013, 11:57 AM
  #469
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How so? Explain, rather than "the year he got caught his OBP was higher, therefor steroids!". They don't help plate discipline. he had 36 walks in just 113 games. Thats more walks than he had in 2011 in 40 less games. You also ignore the fact he played in SF. Bigger gaps. It was his only year in SF.

Next people will argue steroids help you play defence.
Never said steroids helped his plate discipline. I said his OBP was higher because his average was higher as a result of steroids. His OBP this year compared to last year is basically the same. He is walking the same rate this year as last year. His power numbers have dropped a lot and his average dropped a lot. Melky has average plate discipline, below average power, no speed and his body is going to get banged up a lot because he took steroids. He isn't that good. I wanted the Jays to sign him and I was wrong.

San Fran is not a hitters park. Does have huge gaps but it still isn't a hitters park.


Last edited by canucksfan: 07-22-2013 at 12:11 PM.
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07-22-2013, 12:03 PM
  #470
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How so? Explain, rather than "the year he got caught his OBP was higher, therefor steroids!". They don't help plate discipline. he had 36 walks in just 113 games. Thats more walks than he had in 2011 in 40 less games. You also ignore the fact he played in SF. Bigger gaps. It was his only year in SF.

Next people will argue steroids help you play defence.
Just for arguments sake...

Spike in power means pitchers have to be more careful about throwing him stuff in the zone. Even without an improvement in approach or eye, pitchers will try to nibble/throw stuff outside the zone. Ipso facto, more walks.

This increase in balls outside the zone means that he can be more selective on what to swing at IN the zone. Which means he can hit stuff with more authority, make better contact, which one could surmise would lead to an increase in his BABIP? And as a result an increase in overall average.

I've done absolutely no research in terms of the kind of pitches he was seeing...but the logic seems sound to me.

Although, BABIP would improve based on his home field last year.


Last edited by donkeyy0: 07-22-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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07-22-2013, 12:45 PM
  #471
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Also, Joey Bats throwing to Colby warming up in between innings, legit like 50% of his throws he's immediately grabbing his back, stretching it out, rubbing into it. Dunno how bad his back is, but just from watching that game live, seemed like it was bothering him a lot.
His back is done, when I was in Cleveland I saw the exact same thing. He bent down in a squat to mock catch Rasmus throwing pitches (which is a different issue in itself) and he was grimacing a ton trying to get back up.

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07-22-2013, 01:23 PM
  #472
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Just for arguments sake...

Spike in power means pitchers have to be more careful about throwing him stuff in the zone. Even without an improvement in approach or eye, pitchers will try to nibble/throw stuff outside the zone. Ipso facto, more walks.

This increase in balls outside the zone means that he can be more selective on what to swing at IN the zone. Which means he can hit stuff with more authority, make better contact, which one could surmise would lead to an increase in his BABIP? And as a result an increase in overall average.

I've done absolutely no research in terms of the kind of pitches he was seeing...but the logic seems sound to me.

Although, BABIP would improve based on his home field last year.
What spike in power? They aren't being very careful to a guy with a career high 18 homeruns. I'm not even sure exactly what he got caught with but he likely used it numerous years anyways so the whole argument is pointless. Perhaps this is why his body is breaking down.

In just tired of all the steroid arguments. It helps you hit it further, yes, but it doesn't magically make you a better pure hitter. If there's a spike in homeruns, I see the argument but there wasnt. 346 AVG, 390 OPS and 11 homeruns. I don't think it was steroids.

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07-22-2013, 01:54 PM
  #473
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What spike in power? They aren't being very careful to a guy with a career high 18 homeruns. I'm not even sure exactly what he got caught with but he likely used it numerous years anyways so the whole argument is pointless. Perhaps this is why his body is breaking down.

In just tired of all the steroid arguments. It helps you hit it further, yes, but it doesn't magically make you a better pure hitter. If there's a spike in homeruns, I see the argument but there wasnt. 346 AVG, 390 OPS and 11 homeruns. I don't think it was steroids.
It's impossible to know whether it was steroids or not that aided his season last year. However, he was having a career year in every offensive category.

I tried to look it up but it didn't say the substance just that he had increased testosterone in his body.

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07-22-2013, 01:54 PM
  #474
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Arencibia decided to embarrass himself again about the Toronto media criticizing the Blue Jays. He went on MLB Radio and said that's not how you build a fanbase.

He better hope he never plays in New York or Boston some day.


Last edited by Del Preston: 07-22-2013 at 02:46 PM.
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07-22-2013, 01:58 PM
  #475
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Arencibia decided to embarrass himself again about the Toronto media criticizing the Blue Jays. He went on MLB Radio and said not how you build a fanbase.

He better hope he never plays in New York or Boston some day.
for someone who has sucked badly, he sure has a big mouth

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