HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Notices

Kessel and Phaneuf's raise

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-21-2013, 10:51 PM
  #376
The_Chosen_One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,672
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream View Post
Phaneuf does not deserve a raise. He's already making 6.5M. I wouldn't pay him any more than Keith is making (5.5M cap hit), and I'd prefer Keith over Phaneuf. If he's asking for 7M, trade him this season.

Kessel on the otherhand, try to get him for 8y X 7M-7.5 ideally.
Is not making sense some sort of ritual over here? Keith was earning $8 million in the previous year and $7.65 million this year. There is no way in hell, Phaneuf is going to be expecting a salary of $5.5 million. Players don't care about the cap, they'll demand for what they deserved.

More importantly, Keith is not as versatile as Phaneuf. He is not used against the top lines. Neither is Streit who is going to be taking home a $5 million base salary and an additional $2 million signing bonus in the upcoming season. He's 35 years old as well!

The_Chosen_One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 10:54 PM
  #377
Quares27
Registered User
 
Quares27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,523
vCash: 500
Why do people think Phaneuf is going to ask for 7.5? Only 2 d-men have signed for that and they were Weber and Suter who are probably 2 of the top 3 d-men in the NHL, with Doughty and Campbell being the only other D at 7+. He already has the 8th highest cap hit for D in the NHL and is definitely worse than 8th if you were ranking best D so why do you think he's going to ask for so much?

Now Kessel is someone who will ask for around 7.5, and rightfully so considering his production and the fact that there are 30+ forwards making 6.5 or more.

Quares27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 10:56 PM
  #378
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
Is not making sense some sort of ritual over here? Keith was earning $8 million in the previous year and $7.65 million this year. There is no way in hell, Phaneuf is going to be expecting a salary of $5.5 million. Players don't care about the cap, they'll demand for what they deserved.

More importantly, Keith is not as versatile as Phaneuf. He is not used against the top lines. Neither is Streit who is going to be taking home a $5 million base salary and an additional $2 million signing bonus in the upcoming season. He's 35 years old as well!
Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but is Keith's deal not also a back diving deal?

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 10:57 PM
  #379
Quares27
Registered User
 
Quares27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,523
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but is Keith's deal not also a back diving deal?
It's a 13 year cap circumvention contract. He's not even a comparable because those can't be done anymore.

Quares27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 10:58 PM
  #380
Mikeyg
Smackin' haterz
 
Mikeyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,966
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but is Keith's deal not also a back diving deal?
dont think so

Mikeyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 10:58 PM
  #381
The_Chosen_One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,672
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
Does Phaneuf really do it more often than others though? Or is it just noticed more? If Phaneuf makes an error in judgement, there are instantly three threads in minutes on this board, at least one article in each Toronto paper, two to three call in shows burning up the lines with 'hockey experts', two or more TsN reports showing it as the highlight of the night for the next week, I'm sure you get the picture.....

If Weber does the same thing.. Well, I'm reminded of the old saying 'if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it....'

And it's not simply a matter of 'I'd rather have', you still have to get these players to the Leafs somehow. Nobody yet has realistically replaced Phaneuf on this team and at this point I really do not see the need to start another rebuild.
I think if we go for another rebuild, we're going to have to wait for a good five or even ten years to recover. There's a lot more parity in the league and it's increasing steadily with a number of clubs having establish a solid core.

Instead of trading Phaneuf, it'd make a lot more sense moving even Lupul to save cap space. He's not a core guy, is injury-prone, and his existence isn't going to limit our playoff chances. However, I would rather have him here. We really have a lot more options than letting Phaneuf walk for half a million dollars.

The_Chosen_One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 11:01 PM
  #382
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quares27 View Post
It's a 13 year cap circumvention contract. He's not even a comparable because those can't be done anymore.
Much like your above mentioned Suter deal? Only four years of that contract is he earning less 8m, and two of them are 1m. Ryan Suter gets much more than 7.5 if he signs after the new CBA.
If you look at Kris Letang at 7.25 per, that is probably about where Phaneuf ends up.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 11:05 PM
  #383
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
dont think so
Weird, I'd swear this year he's making 8m, and in the last year he's making what, 1.5m? None of this is including the nice bonuses he received the last four years.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 11:06 PM
  #384
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
I think if we go for another rebuild, we're going to have to wait for a good five or even ten years to recover. There's a lot more parity in the league and it's increasing steadily with a number of clubs having establish a solid core.

Instead of trading Phaneuf, it'd make a lot more sense moving even Lupul to save cap space. He's not a core guy, is injury-prone, and his existence isn't going to limit our playoff chances. However, I would rather have him here. We really have a lot more options than letting Phaneuf walk for half a million dollars.
I really don't think we need to deal either of them.
I would reckon there's a good chance the cap goes up the next couple years.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 11:09 PM
  #385
Quares27
Registered User
 
Quares27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,523
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
Much like your above mentioned Suter deal? Only four years of that contract is he earning less 8m, and two of them are 1m. Ryan Suter gets much more than 7.5 if he signs after the new CBA.
If you look at Kris Letang at 7.25 per, that is probably about where Phaneuf ends up.
Ryan Suter is also much better than Phaneuf though. Letang is one of the better comparisons but he's also coming off a Norris nomination which would get him more $$$. Regardless, there's no way Phaneuf can justify getting more than Letang just got. Personally I think he'll get 6.75-7.

This wouldn't even really matter if they didn't have so many guys to resign next off-season. There's room for most of them but not all of them unless the cap goes up, so we just have to hope that it does go up by 3-5 million. Dealing Liles would help too.

Quares27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 11:11 PM
  #386
The_Chosen_One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,672
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
Did you the see the defenders that were recently signed for 5.0-5.5?

Gonchar and Striet... If you are never going to sign anyone not as good as Keith to a contract with a cap hit more than Keith's who signed his back diving deal 3 and a half years ago, you aren't ever going to be able to put together a quality defense.
People need to be given:

http://capgeek.com/

Streit is essentially earning $7 million next season.

The_Chosen_One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 11:14 PM
  #387
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quares27 View Post
Ryan Suter is also much better than Phaneuf though. Letang is one of the better comparisons but he's also coming off a Norris nomination which would get him more $$$. Regardless, there's no way Phaneuf can justify getting more than Letang just got. Personally I think he'll get 6.75-7.
I would argue that Phaneuf is much more important to this team than Letang is to Pittsburgh, and I'm sure his agent will do the same.

Oddly, I can see Phaneuf taking a lower cut to stay here long term.

As for Suter, at this point, no argument here. Just saying that expecting Phaneuf to take a 5.5m deal because Suter signed a back diving contract is unrealistic and quite frankly quite humorous.

Just saw your edit, and if it doesn't, you let some of the higher priced lower level talent go, not the guy wearing the C and carrying the majority of the workload.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 11:21 PM
  #388
Quares27
Registered User
 
Quares27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,523
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
I would argue that Phaneuf is much more important to this team than Letang is to Pittsburgh, and I'm sure his agent will do the same.

Oddly, I can see Phaneuf taking a lower cut to stay here long term.

As for Suter, at this point, no argument here. Just saying that expecting Phaneuf to take a 5.5m deal because Suter signed a back diving contract is unrealistic and quite frankly quite humorous.
No way Phaneuf takes 5.5... would be dumb to even suggest a paycut. Phaneuf could probably get 7.5+ on the open market but I think if he wants to stay here (and I see no reason why he wouldn't with him being the captain and after he just got married) then they can get him for around what he's making now or a little bit more. He's been making 6.5 a year for like 6 years of his career already so it's not like he's desperate for cash.

Quares27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 11:25 PM
  #389
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quares27 View Post
No way Phaneuf takes 5.5... would be dumb to even suggest a paycut. Phaneuf could probably get 7.5+ on the open market but I think if he wants to stay here (and I see no reason why he wouldn't with him being the captain and after he just got married) then they can get him for around what he's making now or a little bit more. He's been making 6.5 a year for like 6 years of his career already so it's not like he's desperate for cash.
Here's hoping he loves us enough to leave some money on the table.

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2013, 11:26 PM
  #390
WestCoastLeafs
I need a new slogan
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 943
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
Much like your above mentioned Suter deal? Only four years of that contract is he earning less 8m, and two of them are 1m. Ryan Suter gets much more than 7.5 if he signs after the new CBA.
If you look at Kris Letang at 7.25 per, that is probably about where Phaneuf ends up.
The Letang contract is also a good comparison in that they are both 2014 contracts, so it's apples to apples.

I see Dion coming in a bit lower than Letang if it's an 8 year deal (somewhere around 7M) because he's two years older, which puts him at 37 instead of 35 at the end of the deal.

By the end of his deal, the cap should be high enough that you can pay your top D 8-9M and still pay your next two 7M each, so this should be manageable longer term.

Personally, I'd rather see a 5 year deal for 7.5-8M, and then resign him around 5 or 6, so there's more cap space available as our current young guys hit their UFA years. But I don't see that happening.

WestCoastLeafs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 12:07 AM
  #391
The_Chosen_One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,672
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
dont think so
His final year has him earning $1 million and he'll be nearly 40 then. Looks like cap circumvention to me.

http://www.capgeek.com/player/252

The_Chosen_One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 07:27 AM
  #392
bleeney
Registered User
 
bleeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,834
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
His final year has him earning $1 million and he'll be nearly 40 then. Looks like cap circumvention to me.

http://www.capgeek.com/player/252
Keith, Suter and Weber all have cap-circumventing contracts that run until they're 40. Those contracts lower their cap hits now, but come with a horrible price down the road.

Over the last 3 years of his deal, Keith would actually earn the grand total of $6.25M.

Ryan Suter's contract pays him a total of $4M over his last 3 seasons.

Shea Weber will earn just $3M over his last 3 years.

I'd wager that all three of them will be retired by the age of 37, and leave that relatively small amount of money on the table. After all, that's why their contracts were structured that way. The problem is, under the new CBA, their teams will be stuck with paying the amount that they circumvented the cap, spread evenly over the remaining years of their contracts.

If I read the rule right and did my math correctly (no guarantee there, lol), Nashville would have a $6.857M cap hit for those last three years, even tough Weber would be long gone. Minnesota would be stuck with a $6.2M cap hit over 3 years for a retired Ryan Suter, and the Hawks would be stuck with a $3.46M cap hit for 3 years of no Duncan Keith.

That's a lot of cap space allocated for absolutely nothing!

Even if Phaneuf signs the maximum-allowed 8 year deal with us, he'd be 37 when his contract expires. But unlike Keith, Weber and Suter, the Leafs wouldn't be left with three years of crippling cap hits.

bleeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 08:14 AM
  #393
Deebo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
People need to be given:

http://capgeek.com/

Streit is essentially earning $7 million next season.
Signing bonuses are included in the NHL salary column on capgeek, he received a 2M signing bonus and will receive $3M over the balance of the season.

Deebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:55 AM
  #394
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 59,772
vCash: 500
Franson outscored Phaneuf last season statistically.

So what happens after Phaneuf's raise moves him to near $7 mil per and Franson continues to out point produce him?

__________________
Signature: There is no greater demonstration of Fan patience then to suggest to "Play the Kids " and be willing to accept the consequences of those actions..
Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 11:13 AM
  #395
Deebo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Franson outscored Phaneuf last season statistically.

So what happens after Phaneuf's raise moves him to near $7 mil per and Franson continues to out point produce him?
I doubt that continues over the term of Franson's next contract.

If it does, then we have two d-men producing at a very high clip and that's a good thing as they will be valuable assets that can be used in trades to address other areas on the roster.

Having too many talented players isn't a bad thing.

Deebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 11:15 AM
  #396
ACC1224
Burke was right.
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 28,131
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Franson outscored Phaneuf last season statistically.

So what happens after Phaneuf's raise moves him to near $7 mil per and Franson continues to out point produce him?
Isn't it a good thing to have good players?

ACC1224 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 11:16 AM
  #397
WTFMAN99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,539
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Franson outscored Phaneuf last season statistically.

So what happens after Phaneuf's raise moves him to near $7 mil per and Franson continues to out point produce him?
Phaneuf puts in more time on the PK and faces tougher competition. Although I think Gardiner-Franson should be given top PP minutes, they are great.

I think Franson if we wanted to sign him long term is okay at about 4 million.

WTFMAN99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 12:14 PM
  #398
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Franson outscored Phaneuf last season statistically.

So what happens after Phaneuf's raise moves him to near $7 mil per and Franson continues to out point produce him?
What happens when Franson gets bumped up to Phaneuf minutes and gets totally exposed, much like Kadri did?

The Apologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 12:21 PM
  #399
xxreact9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 95
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Why?

What makes him 1-1.5M less valuable then Ryan Suter? A player I wouldn't take over Dion?
Your person preferences have no leverage here. The answer to your question is a nomination for the norris trophy last season.

Phaneuf is absolutely 1-1.5M less valuable than Suter.

xxreact9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 12:23 PM
  #400
xxreact9
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 95
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Apologist View Post
What happens when Franson gets bumped up to Phaneuf minutes and gets totally exposed, much like Kadri did?
Then he's a minus 50 on the year. Franson and Phanuef are both highly overrated on this board, both playing well over their heads.

Also, phaneufs time on the PK is a result of having no better options, not anything to do with it being a specialty of his.

xxreact9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:50 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.