HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

No Rush For Rielly

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-22-2013, 07:02 AM
  #76
Happy Fan
nifty
 
Happy Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,239
vCash: 500
Rielly needs to play with players up to his level. The NHL is better for his development, I'm not even worried.

Happy Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:14 AM
  #77
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainspotter View Post
Name a team in the WHL on which Rielly wouldn't be an indisputable top-pairing guy played in all situations.
that's what I thought when I read this. wouldn't he play 30+ on any whl team? if he's even half as good as he's being hyped, he'd be the best defenceman in major junior by a mile. the top guy on any team, getting all the ice time he can handle.

and any whl team that thinks they have a decent shot at the memorial cup would give up anything to get him. any team will sacrifice the next 3-4 years to win the memorial cup.

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:24 AM
  #78
Tony Clifton Leaf
A Mouthful
 
Tony Clifton Leaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,261
vCash: 201
There really is no rush for Rielly.

If he goes back to junior, he'll still:

- Play most of our pre-season games + get a 9 game try-out to see what he needs to work on to succeed in the NHL.

- Play a leadership role on team Canada at the WJC, perhaps donning an 'A'.

- Play upwards of 25 minutes a night in all situations (PP, PK, down by one with one minute left, up by one with one minute left, etc).

- Either have a nice long playoff run in the WHL, or another stint in the AHL to end the year.


That's a very solid year of development. Going back to the WHL for another year would also push his UFA status back to 27 from 26 I believe.

Tony Clifton Leaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:38 AM
  #79
showtime8
Registered User
 
showtime8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,431
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
You've said multiple times that he was small, now that you've been proven incorrect, you are changing your argument. His game isn't all offence. How do YOU know he will get exposed?

I say give him is nine games (if he deserves it), and make an intelligent and informed decision based upon that. If he is ready, it won't be rushing him, he'll be ready. If he isn't ready, send him back. It isn't a big deal really.
I never changed with the part that said he needs to improve defensively. And I was clarifying what I meant by small. He's going to get handled by big forwards.

Giving him 9 games just to see if he can handle it means nothing. That's like picking statistics from a 9 game stretch and trying to explain that Sam Gagner was better than Sidney Crosby. If you truly want to see what he's made of, play him for a full year or nothing at all.

showtime8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:47 AM
  #80
SarcazemKadri
Registered User
 
SarcazemKadri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 798
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
I never changed with the part that said he needs to improve defensively. And I was clarifying what I meant by small. He's going to get handled by big forwards.

Giving him 9 games just to see if he can handle it means nothing. That's like picking statistics from a 9 game stretch and trying to explain that Sam Gagner was better than Sidney Crosby. If you truly want to see what he's made of, play him for a full year or nothing at all.
lol what? Do you understand how prospect development works? 9 games is massive for a prospect. They get a taste of whats required at the NHL level, a taste of the lifestyle.. a very motivating experience.

SarcazemKadri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:50 AM
  #81
Fogelhund
Registered User
 
Fogelhund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,088
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
I never changed with the part that said he needs to improve defensively. And I was clarifying what I meant by small. He's going to get handled by big forwards.

Giving him 9 games just to see if he can handle it means nothing. That's like picking statistics from a 9 game stretch and trying to explain that Sam Gagner was better than Sidney Crosby. If you truly want to see what he's made of, play him for a full year or nothing at all.
Was Nik Lidstrom handled by Big Forwards? Rielly is already bigger. His game isn't about out muscling the Lucic sized guys of the league, never well be, so it's a moot point. It's about positioning.

As far as needing to improve defensively, what exactly are you going on? He hasn't played against pro players long enough to make any judgement yet.

Nine games + exhibition + practices is what they have to go on, like it or not. I'm far from someone who thinks he should play in the NHL this year, but I also wonder what he'll learn in the WHL on his current team. Sure the World Juniors would be a postive experience, but then the Leafs could choose to release him for that anyway.

The bottom line is that there is no issue with his size. That isn't his game anyway. We also don't know how he'll be defensively against the NHL's best, because we haven't seen it. If he is deemed to be good enough, and outplays Liles, he deserves to be on the team, and ship Liles off for a bag of pucks. If he doesn't, I'm completely fine with him back in the WHL, and I hope he gets traded.

What I find entertaining is people stating for a fact he is too small (isn't) and isn't strong enough defensively when they don't have facts to back it up.


Last edited by Fogelhund: 07-22-2013 at 11:27 AM.
Fogelhund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:59 AM
  #82
tony135420
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
As much as I see a bright future for Morgan Rielly, I think its important for him to go back to the WHL.

Yes, he has tons of skill and can skate with the speed of any league that he enters, but there are too many other elements that aren't brought up. Has anyone brought up the size and trying to handle players like Lucic and others in the Eastern Conference? His defensive play should also be questioned. If you think that people can look beyond that, who is he going to be paired with that is currently on the Leafs that will help him?

Morgan Rielly is a great prospect and will be a very good pro, but the Leafs can't fall into the Kadri factor where you try and shove him in a role when there is no one around to support him and doesn't fit the mold of what you need. The Leafs have 3 offensive defencemen on the team in Liles, Gardiner and Franson.
I'd guess that's a problem for 80% of the veteran d-men in the NHL.

I'm hoping he makes it, but my hunch is, if he shows he's worth the second look this year in camp, he'll get his 9 game audition at the beginning of the season. With experienced puck movers like Franson, Gards, Liles and Phaneuf ahead of him, it's an uphill battle...at the least, Liles would have to be moved or benched to make room for him to get a sniff this year. Might be a tough sell when you take into consideration Carlyle's coaching history (pairing offensive minded d-men with defensive minded ones).

tony135420 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 11:20 AM
  #83
wc17
Registered User
 
wc17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Greece
Posts: 62
vCash: 500
The problem with keeping him is if he starts to struggle 20-30-40 games into the season (its bound to happen) and his confidence starts to go down...what then?

On the other hand, I dont see any down side to him playing another season in Juniors. Yes, hes too good for the junior game but I dont see how it would hurt his development to dominate Juniors, play in the WJHC, and possibly finish the season off with the Marlies...

wc17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 11:22 AM
  #84
ACC1224
Burke was right.
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 28,155
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wc17 View Post
The problem with keeping him is if he starts to struggle 20-30-40 games into the season (its bound to happen) and his confidence starts to go down...what then?

On the other hand, I dont see any down side to him playing another season in Juniors. Yes, hes too good for the junior game but I dont see how it would hurt his development to dominate Juniors, play in the WJHC, and possibly finish the season off with the Marlies...
Send him back to Junior.

ACC1224 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 11:31 AM
  #85
Deebo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,113
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wc17 View Post
I dont see how it would hurt his development to dominate Juniors, play in the WJHC, and possibly finish the season off with the Marlies...
I think bad habits can be developed when playing against inferior competition.

Deebo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 11:55 AM
  #86
wc17
Registered User
 
wc17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Greece
Posts: 62
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Send him back to Junior.
I guess they could swallow their pride and send him back to Junior even though theyd have already burned a year of his contract...doubt they would do that but sure, it could happen...

wc17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 12:02 PM
  #87
Drew75
Registered User
 
Drew75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,480
vCash: 500
I would just point to the 2008 draft. Doughty is an exception - then you look at Bogosian, Petriangelo, and Schenn.

Bogo and Schenn played right away. While continuing to develop, both have had extremely up and down careers to date ... Schenn's been traded (as well as ripped and praised equally on every talk show and message board in Toronto), and Bogosian is in just about every trade rumour out of Winnepeg.

Petriangelo was sent back to junior for 2 years, bringing him in when he had a little more mental maturity, and when the team had the option (read: safety net) to send him to AHL if he struggled.

Which of those three would you take now?

The fact is, it's not just skill, but mental toughness, maturity, making mistakes in front of a very large and unforgiving audience.

D take longer. Send him down and don't take the chance.

Drew75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 12:04 PM
  #88
ACC1224
Burke was right.
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 28,155
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wc17 View Post
I guess they could swallow their pride and send him back to Junior even though theyd have already burned a year of his contract...doubt they would do that but sure, it could happen...
They will do what's best for the player, not sure what their pride has to do with it or why they have to swallow anything.

ACC1224 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 12:44 PM
  #89
Dangles McGavin
RIP Lounge
 
Dangles McGavin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Oakville
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,239
vCash: 500
I don't care at all.

If he's good enough, he'll make it.

If he's not ready, he goes to junior. Not really sure why there's so much talk about this.

Dangles McGavin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 08:37 PM
  #90
BIitz
RIP LL
 
BIitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Uptown
Country: Mexico
Posts: 12,953
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainspotter View Post
Name a team in the WHL on which Rielly wouldn't be an indisputable top-pairing guy played in all situations.
Everett if Murray stays, Portland if Jones stays, and the Oil King if Reinhart stays. Both are equal to him. And there's a difference between top pairing and #1 guy. If he played on a better team they wouldn't give him 30+ minutes because they have guys they can rely on. If Reinhart played on MJ he would have played PP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
that's what I thought when I read this. wouldn't he play 30+ on any whl team? if he's even half as good as he's being hyped, he'd be the best defenceman in major junior by a mile. the top guy on any team, getting all the ice time he can handle.

and any whl team that thinks they have a decent shot at the memorial cup would give up anything to get him. any team will sacrifice the next 3-4 years to win the memorial cup.
Again, as I said before just because you'd be the best player on another team doesn't mean you'd get the same minutes. If Erik Karlsson was moved to the Preds for future considerations, he wouldn't continue to get 30 minutes, because they have a plethora of other good D. If your team is acquiring a guy like Rielly, you can basically guarantee they would have good enough depth to not play him for 30 minutes.

Trading for a player of that caliber is so rare though. Schenn was the last trade and teams have taken notice of how poor the Blades are. If they didn't have Makarov they would have been awful. And the forecast of that team is awful. I agree that a team would take a chance to win the Mem cup, but a team would have to be a clear favorite to take that risk, and there really isn't a clear favorite heading into next season for me.

BIitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 09:17 PM
  #91
Pi
Registered User
 
Pi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,942
vCash: 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
They will do what's best for the player, not sure what their pride has to do with it or why they have to swallow anything.
Exactly. I don't see why Rielly couldn't start the season with the Leafs, stay longer than 9 games. If he needs more time, we can send him back to junior.

Gardiner hit a speed bump in his first season after 40 or so games because he had never played more than that many games in a season before that...so they took their time with him, send him down to the AHL and brought him up again when he was ready to go.

Pi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:08 PM
  #92
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
I think bad habits can be developed when playing against inferior competition.
if that's true, how long would it take him to shake those bad habits upon turning pro?

wouldn't he be able to drop those bad habits very quickly? is that anything to really be concerned about?

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:11 PM
  #93
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
I don't care at all.

If he's good enough, he'll make it.

If he's not ready, he goes to junior. Not really sure why there's so much talk about this.
pretty much agree with this. its not like anyone here knows him personally. he could be traded tomorrow for all we know.

should be all about the team, not some kid trying to make it.

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:11 PM
  #94
Hurt
Global Moderator
 
Hurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
if that's true, how long would it take him to shake those bad habits upon turning pro?

wouldn't he be able to drop those bad habits very quickly? is that anything to really be concerned about?
Took Kadri about 2 years to shake the bad habits and figure out that the NHL/AHL is way different from the OHL and he can't run roughshod over competition.

__________________
Shoot me a PM with your concerns. Also, come visit us in the Science Forum!
Hurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:16 PM
  #95
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
Again, as I said before just because you'd be the best player on another team doesn't mean you'd get the same minutes. If Erik Karlsson was moved to the Preds for future considerations, he wouldn't continue to get 30 minutes, because they have a plethora of other good D. If your team is acquiring a guy like Rielly, you can basically guarantee they would have good enough depth to not play him for 30 minutes.
if there are whl teams that have a deep enough defence corps that rielly wouldn't get top ice time, 30 minutes a game, in all situations, then he's simply not nearly as good as he's being hyped on this board.

heck, someone compared him favourably to nik lidstrom in this thread. if he's lidstrom, he's playing 30+ minutes on any junior team. if he's not as good as hyped, you may have a valid point.

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:18 PM
  #96
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
Took Kadri about 2 years to shake the bad habits and figure out that the NHL/AHL is way different from the OHL and he can't run roughshod over competition.
don't believe that for a second, but if you're right, then he's an absolute moron who had no coaching whatsoever.

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:30 PM
  #97
diceman934
Registered User
 
diceman934's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NHL player factory
Posts: 5,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Send him back to Junior.
Why do people think we have to keep a Jr player for the whole year? Matteau was sent back this year...by New Jersey after 17 games.

diceman934 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:34 PM
  #98
diceman934
Registered User
 
diceman934's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NHL player factory
Posts: 5,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
pretty much agree with this. its not like anyone here knows him personally. he could be traded tomorrow for all we know.

should be all about the team, not some kid trying to make it.
You would be wrong on your opinion that no one knows him personally. I know if at least two who do.

diceman934 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2013, 10:36 PM
  #99
Hurt
Global Moderator
 
Hurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,381
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
don't believe that for a second, but if you're right, then he's an absolute moron who had no coaching whatsoever.
It's nothing about being a moron. It's more that he dominated for so long that his pretty tricks were his tool (a compliment to his amazing hands). I'm a firm believer that Dallas made him a much better player. Kadri has all the skill in the world but just needed the right mentoring.

Hurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2013, 06:24 AM
  #100
Larcos_Unal
Registered User
 
Larcos_Unal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Argentina
Posts: 1,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew75 View Post
I would just point to the 2008 draft. Doughty is an exception - then you look at Bogosian, Petriangelo, and Schenn.

Bogo and Schenn played right away. While continuing to develop, both have had extremely up and down careers to date ... Schenn's been traded (as well as ripped and praised equally on every talk show and message board in Toronto), and Bogosian is in just about every trade rumour out of Winnepeg.

Petriangelo was sent back to junior for 2 years, bringing him in when he had a little more mental maturity, and when the team had the option (read: safety net) to send him to AHL if he struggled.

Which of those three would you take now?

The fact is, it's not just skill, but mental toughness, maturity, making mistakes in front of a very large and unforgiving audience.

D take longer. Send him down and don't take the chance.
well said

Larcos_Unal is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:02 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.