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Worst goalie during the playoff streak?

View Poll Results: Worst Red Wings goalie during playoff streak?
Tim Cheveldae 34 28.10%
Chris Osgood 9 7.44%
Mike Vernon 0 0%
Dominik Hasek 4 3.31%
Curtis Joseph 15 12.40%
Manny Legace 57 47.11%
Jimmy Howard 2 1.65%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-21-2013, 09:08 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Hossa was fine, his injury didn't get worse throughout the playoffs. He put off surgery to try and win a cup with Detroit since Detroit wasn't signing him for 1 season where he only played half of it.
He had surgery for nothing.

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07-21-2013, 09:16 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
So you're admitting to trolling me and not having a legit discussion. Good to know.
No, I admitted to cracking a low hanging fruit joke. If anything, I trolled Hossa and Cleary. Honestly, it didn't enter into my mind that you'd feel you were being trolled, since the joke hinged upon the very low opinion of Cleary on these forums.

I'm sorry you're seeing this as a personal slight, but I really do want to assure you, it's not.

I like Cleary! And Hossa!

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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Weiss is so far removed from the point of this offshoot discussion that it's ridiculous to mention him.

With regard to Weiss -- I've compared Weiss vs Flip 2010 vs 2010, 2011 vs 2011, 2012 vs 2012, and 2010-2013 vs 2010-2013.

Don't pretend I've only looked at his injury prone year.
If I can't mention the Weiss thing here, should I go to the Weiss thread and bring up your comments on Hossa there? That might be a stretch, too. I just saw you consistently say, "Alfredsson and Weiss combined for X points last year..." while completely omitting his injury as a factor for the reason those guys point totals look terrible.

I feel like it's a fair question when injury is used to justify one performance, but not another. The other years to make the comparison are fine and as such I didn't mention it. I'm only a little unreasonable.

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For sure.

Are you giving Bench bucks to the winner?
Absolutely. But by now I'd imagine the winner is passed out an unable to claim their prize.

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07-21-2013, 09:23 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Hossa was fine, his injury didn't get worse throughout the playoffs. He put off surgery to try and win a cup with Detroit since Detroit wasn't signing him for 1 season where he only played half of it.
THIS. If he was that injured he would have had surgery during the season. Like he did in Chicago.

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07-21-2013, 09:45 PM
  #104
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How is Ranford not on this list? My vote for sure.

And I'm definitely in the Osgood for the Smythe in '09 camp. Ozzie wasn't perfect throughout his career, and definitely imploded during his last few regular seasons, but he still deserves more credit than he's often given.

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07-21-2013, 10:31 PM
  #105
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If I can't mention the Weiss thing here, should I go to the Weiss thread and bring up your comments on Hossa there? That might be a stretch, too. I just saw you consistently say, "Alfredsson and Weiss combined for X points last year..." while completely omitting his injury as a factor for the reason those guys point totals look terrible.

I feel like it's a fair question when injury is used to justify one performance, but not another. The other years to make the comparison are fine and as such I didn't mention it. I'm only a little unreasonable.
I've constantly compared Weiss and Flip in as many apples-to-apples ways as I can see. Most of the time the numbers agree with my general position. Sometimes they don't. And I'll gladly post my numbers even when they don't, because while I have an opinion, I'm willing to consider numbers and thoughts that don't fit in my view.

I brought up the Alfredsson/Weiss points totals from last year, because like it or not, they're relevant.

If everyone wants to bust Flip's nuts for sucking last year, then you can't just throw Weiss's numbers out the window.

All I'm trying to do is cut through the pure ******** reported by the media and ******* bloggers and repeated ad nauseum all over the Wings boards -- and inject some realism.

All over the place, I read about how we added a whole bunch of goal scoring.
But... Brunner scored more than Alfie last year. And Flip scored more than Weiss.
Ok, weiss was hurt. So let's go back to the year before.

Oh -- we can't consider that year because Flip played Wing.

Ok, so let's go back to the year before -- and let's compare apples to apples. Let's compare even strength production.

You're going to have to tell me how you reduced that all to "was unfair to Weiss when he was hurt" and then thought it was a good idea interject that misrepresentation into this thread...


Last edited by Bench: 07-22-2013 at 05:56 AM.
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07-21-2013, 11:38 PM
  #106
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Cheveldale never caught on as a starter elsewhere, Legace did.

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07-22-2013, 12:28 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
On topic: yes I was a fan in 2001 and no I am not entirely convinced Osgood would be on the outs. If Hasek doesn't become available and we see Legace in the playoffs in 2002, then that experiment ends, we see another goaltender come in (Cujo most likely) and Osgood is put back as a backup, or Osgood gets the starting job back.
If not Hasek, it's still Ozzie. And also, likely no Robitaille.

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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Yes. Ozzie was out.
Were you a fan in 00-01?
I was.
And Ozzie stunk it up so bad he nearly lost his job to a pretty mediocre Manny Legace.

The buzz around town was the Ozzie was enjoyed the nightlife as much as DMac.

Here are the stats from 00-01
Legace --24-5-5, 2.05 GAA, .920 sv pct
Osgood-24-19-4, 2.69 GAA, .903 sv pct

Throw in Osgood's epic collapse against Los Angeles, and his fate was sealed.
If it wasn't Hasek it was going to be someone else.

The Red Wings had seen enough.
You don't get the concept of "backups play against worse teams" do you?

Andy Moog had comparable or sometimes better stats when he was teammates with Grant Fuhr. But the QoC faced was hugely different; and Fuhr/Moog are not the only time this has happened in history. It's a standard situation; the starter faces a tougher (often much tougher) situation. If the backup is talented, sometimes his numbers might come out looking pretty good compared to the starter.

But it's very rare that the starter is actually worse.

Also, I think you mean "Detroit's epic collapse". If you seriously are putting it all on Osgood, you have no business making any sort of judgement about what happens/happened in a hockey game.

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07-22-2013, 06:02 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
You're going to have to tell me how you reduced that all to "was unfair to Weiss when he was hurt" and then thought it was a good idea interject that misrepresentation into this thread...
It was just a question.

I didn't think it was a big deal to ask why Weiss' injured year was held against him, and hey, I thought you might even enjoy explaining it since you seem to have gathered so much data and have been quite eager to share over the last month.

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07-22-2013, 07:29 AM
  #109
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While he was truly something special early on in his career, and he was ok in his first year with the wings, I have a special hatred in my heart for Hasek.

The old man never did anything close to resembling a good hockey play. Weak wrist shot from the blue line? Better let up a rebound and flop around your back for 30 seconds. Scrum in front of the net? Lay down on your back and stair up at the ceiling, maybe take a nap, surely that's the best way to make a save

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07-22-2013, 07:39 AM
  #110
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I truly would like to hear the justification for the people who voted for Howard.

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07-22-2013, 10:14 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
It was just a question.

I didn't think it was a big deal to ask why Weiss' injured year was held against him, and hey, I thought you might even enjoy explaining it since you seem to have gathered so much data and have been quite eager to share over the last month.
Bench, we both know it wasn't a question. It was you trying to contradict me/ And I don't care. But it made no sense in the context of the discussion -- which was already being stretched

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07-22-2013, 10:17 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
I truly would like to hear the justification for the people who voted for Howard.
What has Howard done that Cujo hasn't?
For me, I haven't made up my mind on Howie.

He hasn't had the teams other Red Wings goalies have had. But I think he's got some of that Legace/Early Osgood choke gene.

Maybe he gets past it. Maybe not.

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07-22-2013, 10:20 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
What has Howard done that Cujo hasn't?
For me, I haven't made up my mind on Howie.

He hasn't had the teams other Red Wings goalies have had. But I think he's got some of that Legace/Early Osgood choke gene.

Maybe he gets past it. Maybe not.
And right there's the reason why it's too early to judge him. Did he have the 2008 Cup team, or the 2009 team? No. He hasn't. A good goalie can only go so far when the team in front of him doesn't play up to its potential, or plays hurt.

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07-22-2013, 10:50 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If not Hasek, it's still Ozzie. And also, likely no Robitaille.



You don't get the concept of "backups play against worse teams" do you?



But it's very rare that the starter is actually worse.

Also, I think you mean "Detroit's epic collapse". If you seriously are putting it all on Osgood, you have no business making any sort of judgement about what happens/happened in a hockey game.
That's a nice thing to say, about backups getting the easy games, but we know that the truth is that the Red Wings basically went with a 1A and 1B tandem that year

Ozzie got off to a brutal start that year. On Jan 1 he was 7-12..

This team lost its faith in Ozzie, and when Ozzie melted down in game 3 vs the Kings, you could see that this team didn't trust him anymore.

Ozzie gave up 10 goals in 2 games Oct. 31 and Nov. 3 and didn't play for 15 days.
He returned, won a game in relief of Legacy, and then lost two more in row, giving up 11 goals.


You can spin this however you want.
But Ozzie had the worst save percentage of his career since his rookie year (up to that point). He had the worst goals against of his career since his rookie year (up to that point).
He posted a 25-23 record while his "backup" was like 24-10 and had a great goals against average and great save percentage.

Then he got to the playoffs and with his team up 2-1 in the series and up 3-1 late in game three, he collapsed -- losing that game and then the next two -- to finish the season with 4 straight losses.


That was hit. Ozzie was done. His good buddy Ken Holland, who probably scouted and drafted him, couldn't protect him anymore.

I

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07-22-2013, 10:54 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
And right there's the reason why it's too early to judge him. Did he have the 2008 Cup team, or the 2009 team? No. He hasn't. A good goalie can only go so far when the team in front of him doesn't play up to its potential, or plays hurt.
I agree.
A good goalie can only go so far.
A great goalie, on the other hand, can take a team farther than Howard has.

I'd like to see what Howard can do with a great team. I suspect he's got the talent of backstopping a great team to the cup. I don't think much of Corey Crawford and Anti Niemi and Jonathan Quick, but they've done it.

But there's an immaturity about Howard that makes me wonder if he can handle it yet.

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07-22-2013, 11:11 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
That's a nice thing to say, about backups getting the easy games, but we know that the truth is that the Red Wings basically went with a 1A and 1B tandem that year

Ozzie got off to a brutal start that year. On Jan 1 he was 7-12..

This team lost its faith in Ozzie, and when Ozzie melted down in game 3 vs the Kings, you could see that this team didn't trust him anymore.

Ozzie gave up 10 goals in 2 games Oct. 31 and Nov. 3 and didn't play for 15 days.
He returned, won a game in relief of Legacy, and then lost two more in row, giving up 11 goals.


You can spin this however you want.
But Ozzie had the worst save percentage of his career since his rookie year (up to that point). He had the worst goals against of his career since his rookie year (up to that point).
He posted a 25-23 record while his "backup" was like 24-10 and had a great goals against average and great save percentage.

Then he got to the playoffs and with his team up 2-1 in the series and up 3-1 late in game three, he collapsed -- losing that game and then the next two -- to finish the season with 4 straight losses.


That was hit. Ozzie was done. His good buddy Ken Holland, who probably scouted and drafted him, couldn't protect him anymore.

I
2012-13 Bernier 1.88, .922
2012-13 Quick 2.48, .902
And then Quick had an epic collapse in the playoffs losing 4 out of the last 5 playoff games, knocking them out.
Too bad for the Kings with the new rules they won't be able to just kick him to the curb.

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07-22-2013, 11:19 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Johnz96 View Post
2012-13 Bernier 1.88, .922
2012-13 Quick 2.48, .902
And then Quick had an epic collapse in the playoffs losing 4 out of the last 5 playoff games, knocking them out.
Too bad for the Kings with the new rules they won't be able to just kick him to the curb.

Much more than most, I think Quick is overrated, but
1) Nobody considered Ozzie a Conn Smythe in 98. If anything, people thought we won the cup despite his play.
2) 2001 was three years after the Cup, not a year later, like in your example. What do you suppose the thinking on Quick might be if he posted this season three years later?
You go from winning two straight cups, to losing in round 2 twice, to losing in round 1.

I don't know why it's so hard for you and other to accept that Osgood's stock plummeted a great deal by the end of the 2001 season.

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07-22-2013, 11:35 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post

Much more than most, I think Quick is overrated, but
1) Nobody considered Ozzie a Conn Smythe in 98. If anything, people thought we won the cup despite his play.
2) 2001 was three years after the Cup, not a year later, like in your example. What do you suppose the thinking on Quick might be if he posted this season three years later?
You go from winning two straight cups, to losing in round 2 twice, to losing in round 1.

I don't know why it's so hard for you and other to accept that Osgood's stock plummeted a great deal by the end of the 2001 season.
MOD
He had to be much better than vernon was the previous year. In 97 the Wings dominated and outshot the opponent in every game, in 98 they weren't nearly as good without Konstantinov.


Last edited by Fugu: 07-22-2013 at 11:58 AM. Reason: flaming
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07-22-2013, 11:51 AM
  #119
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He had to be much better than vernon was the previous year. In 97 the Wings dominated and outshot the opponent in every game, in 98 they weren't nearly as good without Konstantinov.
Nah, Ozzie was definitely viewed as a beneficiary of the team playing in front of him. many still say he doesn't deserve to be in the HHoF due to having "inflated stats" that make him look better than he was. He really earned his spot in the HHoF during the '08-'09 run in my opinion. That proved he could be a key contributor on one of the best teams in the league during a time when the cap took away any perceived advantage Detroit had when it came to outspending other teams.

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07-22-2013, 11:56 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Nah, Ozzie was definitely viewed as a beneficiary of the team playing in front of him. many still say he doesn't deserve to be in the HHoF due to having "inflated stats" that make him look better than he was. He really earned his spot in the HHoF during the '08-'09 run in my opinion. That proved he could be a key contributor on one of the best teams in the league during a time when the cap took away any perceived advantage Detroit had when it came to outspending other teams.
So why wasn't Vernon viewed as just a beneficiary of the team in front of him? (Rhetorical question by the way, the answer was in my previous post) The Wings were much more dominant in 97 than they were in 98.


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07-22-2013, 11:58 AM
  #121
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He had to be much better than vernon was the previous year. In 97 the Wings dominated and outshot the opponent in every game, in 98 they weren't nearly as good without Konstantinov.
Detroit won that cup because they were on a mission.
That was the last team to win back-to-back cups. Most teams find it hard to regain the desire.

Detroit, unfortunately, had great reason to want to win that cup again.

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07-22-2013, 11:59 AM
  #122
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So why wasn't Vernon viewed as just a beneficiary of the team in front of him? (Rhetorical question by the way, the answer is in my previous post) The Wings were much more dominant in 97 than they were in 98.
You have to remember why Vernon was brought to Detroit. He also won a Cup in Calgary.

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07-22-2013, 12:03 PM
  #123
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So why wasn't Vernon viewed as just a beneficiary of the team in front of him? (Rhetorical question by the way, the answer is in my previous post) The Wings were much more dominant in 97 than they were in 98.
Vernon was starter in two playoff years for Detroit, getting us to the finals twice, winning once.
Osgood, for whatever reason, also seemed to have lots of trouble with the Colorado avalanche his first time here.

Ozzie vs Roy never worked out well for us.
Vernon vs Roy did. Hasek vs Roy did.

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07-22-2013, 02:30 PM
  #124
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Bench, we both know it wasn't a question. It was you trying to contradict me/ And I don't care. But it made no sense in the context of the discussion -- which was already being stretched
I was being sincere, but this bad boy image you're giving me is going to be awesome with the ladies.

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07-22-2013, 03:48 PM
  #125
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Then he got to the playoffs and with his team up 2-1 in the series and up 3-1 late in game three, he collapsed -- losing that game and then the next two -- to finish the season with 4 straight losses.
FWIW, it was Game 4, and it was a 3-0 lead (and the ESPN guys were busy rhapsodizing about, and I quote, "a subtle dominance" by Detroit). Then it fell apart spectacularly, and the team was totally shell-shocked afterward. Ozzy pretty much faced the Kings alone in Game 5.

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