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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-22-2013, 04:08 PM
  #601
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
The Habs had him at a discount this year, and will again next year...you know, when it matters the most and the cap is going down.
That's not when it matters the most. Cap matters the most when we're going to actually need it, meaning, when we'll contend, which is more in 2-4years than next year.

I rather have PK at fair value for 2years (last year + this year at 5M) and then 2-3 more years at 5M at a discount for when it matters most (hopefully contending years), then 1 and a half season of him at a huge discount during transitional years.

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07-22-2013, 04:09 PM
  #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
In 2-4 years based on current projections, the cap will be at 70M+

As far as having as much cash saved to go after big names and over pay? Do you mean via free agency?

If so, I think MB has said that that's not the way he will operate...furthermore, can you guarantee that

A - Big names will be available?
B - that they will sign in Montreal?

Furthermore, the last time the Habs had a ton of cap space and used it to overpay for free agents, they ended up trading for Scott Gomez, and signing Gionta/Cammalleri etc to bloated contracts

How did that work out?
I don't get your argument. You gives reasons for not saving, but in those same reasons is the exact reason you save. YOU DON'T KNOW. Paying Subban top dollar but at the same time having him on a cap discount because the GM had foresight to realize this kid was gonna win a Norris, gives you more room to maneuver. PERIOD.

How did the signings and trading for Gomez work? Pretty damn good, furthest the team went in the playoffs in over 20 years.

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07-22-2013, 04:11 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
IMO, on the surface it does...but in reality, I think it's quite the opposite.

You assume that the Habs have a problem with paying Subban a higher cap hit, they don't, and rightfully so.

There will be other players coming off ELC looking for new deals...because of the way things were handled with Price, Pacioretty, Eller and Subban. The Habs will be able to control costs when they have the most leverage.

It's just a different way of doing things, it's not necessarily wrong and no one has been able to prove that it is. Just alot of assumptions and conjecture which don't make it reality
In Subban's case I think it was extremely short-sighted. I don't know if the bridge deal concept is something which ideal for players of Subban and Galchenyuk's calibre. Because back and front loading deals are difficult to come by with the new rules of the CBA, the way to get your star players at discounts is to sign them at good long-term deals before they break out.

With bridge deals there is the possibility of signing every player to their maximum possible value, maybe even potentially overpaying them because of the type of seasons they might provide during their bridge deals.

For example, suppose the same scenario happens with Galchenyuk where he wants similar numbers to Subban during his holdout and we push a bridge deal. Also, suppose that Galchenyuk during the bridge deal continues to produce at that pace and now commands 7 million. Now we will have to pay Subban and Galchenyuk and 7 million a space at a combined cap at 14 million instead of potentially having both at 10 million for instance. Again, this is just hypothetical, but the point is that the bridge contract isn't always the ideal scenario for players of this type of calibre and talent. In such a case we potentially lose out on 4 million dollars of savings.

I just don't agree with treating every player the same way, not all players are equal.

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07-22-2013, 04:15 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
In 2-4 years based on current projections, the cap will be at 70M+

As far as having as much cash saved to go after big names and over pay? Do you mean via free agency?

If so, I think MB has said that that's not the way he will operate...furthermore, can you guarantee that

A - Big names will be available? (there is less and less quality available via free agency)
B - that they will sign in Montreal?

Furthermore, the last time the Habs had a ton of cap space and used it to overpay for free agents, they ended up trading for Scott Gomez, and signing Gionta/Cammalleri etc to bloated contracts

How did that work out?
Projections change every year, but still, the more cash saved then likely the more options.

As for your questions:
1- There are always some interesting names.
2- I can guarantee you that if we don't overpay they won't come here. Hence the ''it's always better to have more cash'' comment.

Last time we completely revamped the team. That's not at all what we're talking about here. We're talking about throwing huge money at one or two guys like Vanek, Marleau, Hjal, Kessel, or whoever we might be interested in.

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07-22-2013, 04:17 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That's not when it matters the most. Cap matters the most when we're going to actually need it, meaning, when we'll contend, which is more in 2-4years than next year.I rather have PK at fair value for 2years (last year + this year at 5M) and then 2-3 more years at 5M at a discount for when it matters most (hopefully contending years), then 1 and a half season of him at a huge discount during transitional years.
In 2-4 years...the cap will be higher then it's EVER been

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07-22-2013, 04:18 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
In 2-4 years...the cap will be higher then it's EVER been
So players will demand salaries higher than it's ever been.

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07-22-2013, 04:18 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I don't get your argument. You gives reasons for not saving, but in those same reasons is the exact reason you save. YOU DON'T KNOW. Paying Subban top dollar but at the same time having him on a cap discount because the GM had foresight to realize this kid was gonna win a Norris, gives you more room to maneuver. PERIOD.

How did the signings and trading for Gomez work? Pretty damn good, furthest the team went in the playoffs in over 20 years.
Is that why only Gionta lived out the length of his deal?

Scott Gomez was an utter disaster...don't even go there

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07-22-2013, 04:20 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Is that why only Gionta lived out the length of his deal?

Scott Gomez was an utter disaster...don't even go there
I would take one good year, enjoying the nightlife of Montreal, partying every night, watching the Habs go far in the playoffs. Ya the falloff was great... But that one year felt great.

Not like we had the roster to do any better with Koivu, Kovalev...

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07-22-2013, 04:20 PM
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
In 2-4 years based on current projections, the cap will be at 70M+

As far as having as much cash saved to go after big names and over pay? Do you mean via free agency?

If so, I think MB has said that that's not the way he will operate...furthermore, can you guarantee that

A - Big names will be available? (there is less and less quality available via free agency)
B - that they will sign in Montreal?

Furthermore, the last time the Habs had a ton of cap space and used it to overpay for free agents, they ended up trading for Scott Gomez, and signing Gionta/Cammalleri etc to bloated contracts

How did that work out?
I do not follow. The team should aim for savings if they can. Then if a good opportunity comes up the GM can sign/trade for any player he wants without getting caught in some vice where he can't acquire player X without being forced to clear space elsewhere, or eventually finds himself priced out of a UFA the team really needs.

your example is like finding the TV you wanted on sale, and deciding to wait until the sale is over so you can pay full price, because you might take the money you save and waste it on scratch tickets and One Direction fan magazines. The latter dumb decisions don't negate the wisdom of buying the item at the lower price.

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07-22-2013, 04:22 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
In Subban's case I think it was extremely short-sighted. I don't know if the bridge deal concept is something which ideal for players of Subban and Galchenyuk's calibre. Because back and front loading deals are difficult to come by with the new rules of the CBA, the way to get your star players at discounts is to sign them at good long-term deals before they break out.

With bridge deals there is the possibility of signing every player to their maximum possible value, maybe even potentially overpaying them because of the type of seasons they might provide during their bridge deals.

For example, suppose the same scenario happens with Galchenyuk where he wants similar numbers to Subban during his holdout and we push a bridge deal. Also, suppose that Galchenyuk during the bridge deal continues to produce at that pace and now commands 7 million. Now we will have to pay Subban and Galchenyuk and 7 million a space at a combined cap at 14 million instead of potentially having both at 10 million for instance. Again, this is just hypothetical, but the point is that the bridge contract isn't always the ideal scenario for players of this type of calibre and talent. In such a case we potentially lose out on 4 million dollars of savings.

I just don't agree with treating every player the same way, not all players are equal.
Well I can see how that's a problem for Geoff Molson...doesn't necessarily have to be a problem for the Habs.

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07-22-2013, 04:23 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by WG View Post
I do not follow. The team should aim for savings if they can. Then if a good opportunity comes up the GM can sign/trade for any player he wants without getting caught in some vice where he can't acquire player X without being forced to clear space elsewhere, or eventually finds himself priced out of a UFA the team really needs.

your example is like finding the TV you wanted on sale, and deciding to wait until the sale is over so you can pay full price, because you might take the money you save and waste it on scratch tickets and One Direction fan magazines. The latter dumb decisions don't negate the wisdom of buying the item at the lower price.
No...it is not

We're talking hockey, not buying TV's

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07-22-2013, 04:23 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Well I can see how that's a problem for Geoff Molson...doesn't necessarily have to be a problem for the Habs.
How exactly will it be a problem for Molson? He knows full well he'll be paying to the cap every year, regardless of how well our cap situation is handled. You're living in opposite land.

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07-22-2013, 04:32 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I would take one good year, enjoying the nightlife of Montreal, partying every night, watching the Habs go far in the playoffs. Ya the falloff was great... But that one year felt great.

Not like we had the roster to do any better with Koivu, Kovalev...
So your partying is the measure of the success of those deals now?

What's the relevance of your partying during a run to the ECF?

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07-22-2013, 04:34 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
How exactly will it be a problem for Molson? He knows full well he'll be paying to the cap every year, regardless of how well our cap situation is handled. You're living in opposite land.
I'm being semi-facetious here...you're essentially making my argument here

I agree that no matter what, the Habs will spend to the cap

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07-22-2013, 04:36 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'm being semi-facetious here...you're essentially making my argument here

I agree that no matter what, the Habs will spend to the cap
And how exactly does that make your point?

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07-22-2013, 04:39 PM
  #616
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And how exactly does that make your point?
Sigh....

Well I've made several...but as it relates to your post

I've said several times, even if the Habs had signed Subban to that 5yr 25M deal that everyone seems so convinced was the deal they refused to give him

And by consequence, would of saved 3M per year instead of the 8M per year Subban will now be making (the anti-bridge deal crowd keeps arguing that they could of saved valuable cap space)

The Habs would still spend that cap space on someone else because as you said, the Habs will always spend to the cap

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07-22-2013, 04:44 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Sigh....

Well I've made several...but as it relates to your post

I've said several times, even if the Habs had signed Subban to that 5yr 25M deal that everyone seems so convinced was the deal they refused to give him

And by consequence, would of saved 3M per year instead of the 8M per year Subban will now be making (the anti-bridge deal crowd keeps arguing that they could of saved valuable cap space)

The Habs would still spend that cap space on someone else because as you said, the Habs will always spend to the cap
Well... yes...that's the point.

Nobody is arguing saving cap space for the sake of tucking it in at night. The point is to save capspace so that you can spend it wisely on another asset, if/when that time comes.

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07-22-2013, 04:48 PM
  #618
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Well... yes...that's the point.

Nobody is arguing saving cap space for the sake of tucking it in at night. The point is to save capspace so that you can spend it wisely on another asset, if/when that time comes.
But spending it wisely is a WHOLE other argument, and if your using it as part of the reason why the bridge deal wasn't smart, then you have to include it in this argument...just because you have it does not guarantee it will be spent wisely

One thing we can't disagree on is that money spent on Subban, at least IMO, regardless if it's 5-6-7-8, is spent wisely

I think we saw what happened when the Habs 'saved cap space' in the Ryder/Cole swap

They turned around and re-invested it in Desharnais and Bouillon

How does everyone like those deals?

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07-22-2013, 04:48 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
So your partying is the measure of the success of those deals now?

What's the relevance of your partying during a run to the ECF?
Oh I'm sorry, did I talk about myself? I will refrain from that in the future.
edit: Not to mention all the money that was made by the team going that far in the playoffs.

Since the Habs made the final 4 in 09-10, only 12 teams of 30 have made it to the final 4 since then. Let's see how they have done after:

Philadelphia Flyers (made playoffs 3 times and missed playoffs once)
Montreal Canadiens (made playoffs 3 times and missed playoffs once)
Chicago Blackhawks (twice) (made playoffs 4 times, 2 cups)
San Jose Sharks (twice) (made the playoffs 4 times)
Vancouver Canucks (made the playoffs 4 times)
Boston Bruins (twice) (made the playoffs 4 times) (1 cup)
Tampa Bay Lightning (this was the only year in the playoffs)
Los Angeles Kings (twice) (made the playoffs 4 times) (1 cup)
Phoenix Coyotes (made playoffs 3 times and missed playoffs once)
New Jersey Devils (made playoffs 2 times and missed playoffs twice)
New York Rangers (made playoffs 3 times and missed playoffs once)
Pittsburgh Penguins (made the playoffs 4 times)

I see the Habs competing with that roster you think is deplorable.

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07-22-2013, 04:48 PM
  #620
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Sigh....

Well I've made several...but as it relates to your post

I've said several times, even if the Habs had signed Subban to that 5yr 25M deal that everyone seems so convinced was the deal they refused to give him

And by consequence, would of saved 3M per year instead of the 8M per year Subban will now be making (the anti-bridge deal crowd keeps arguing that they could of saved valuable cap space)

The Habs would still spend that cap space on someone else because as you said, the Habs will always spend to the cap
And when they do, the difference between Subban at $5M and Subban at $7-8M is that extra $2M or so to fill that last spot which usually means you get a better or less risky player. That means getting a better UFA, or getting a good UFA instead of signing a longshot or hoping that a young player is ready (or worse, forcing a young guy in before he's ready).

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07-22-2013, 04:53 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
But spending it wisely is a WHOLE other argument, and if your using it as part of the reason why the bridge deal wasn't smart, then you have to include it in this argument...just because you have it does not guarantee it will be spent wisely

One thing we can't disagree on is that money spent on Subban, at least IMO, regardless if it's 5-6-7-8, is spent wisely

I think we saw what happened when the Habs 'saved cap space' in the Ryder/Cole swap

They turned around and re-invested it in Desharnais and Bouillon

How does everyone like those deals?
That's precisely why some people are already losing faith in Bergevin. His investments aren't that great. Aside from Prust and the extension to MaxPac, he's made questionable investments.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't save when we can though. We have to believe he'll be taking the right decisions, otherwise you don't want him running the show.

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07-22-2013, 04:56 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
But spending it wisely is a WHOLE other argument, and if your using it as part of the reason why the bridge deal wasn't smart, then you have to include it in this argument...just because you have it does not guarantee it will be spent wisely

One thing we can't disagree on is that money spent on Subban, at least IMO, regardless if it's 5-6-7-8, is spent wisely

I think we saw what happened when the Habs 'saved cap space' in the Ryder/Cole swap

They turned around and re-invested it in Desharnais and Bouillon

How does everyone like those deals?

So your argument is that cap-space shouldn't be saved or tightly managed because the GM might **** it up?

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07-22-2013, 05:05 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by WG View Post
And when they do, the difference between Subban at $5M and Subban at $7-8M is that extra $2M or so to fill that last spot which usually means you get a better or less risky player. That means getting a better UFA, or getting a good UFA instead of signing a longshot or hoping that a young player is ready (or worse, forcing a young guy in before he's ready).
It usually means you get a better or less risky player eh?

No it doesn't usually mean that...it can mean the opposite, no guarantee there

Another assumption

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07-22-2013, 05:05 PM
  #624
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But spending it wisely is a WHOLE other argument, and if your using it as part of the reason why the bridge deal wasn't smart, then you have to include it in this argument...just because you have it does not guarantee it will be spent wisely
One thing we can't disagree on is that money spent on Subban, at least IMO, regardless if it's 5-6-7-8, is spent wisely

I think we saw what happened when the Habs 'saved cap space' in the Ryder/Cole swap

They turned around and re-invested it in Desharnais and Bouillon

How does everyone like those deals?
And this brings me back to the analogy of buying the TV on sale. Buying the TV on sale is better than buying it at full price. 100% certain. That you might take the money saved and blow it is no reason to not get the sale price, because having that extra money gives you at least the chance to do something good.

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07-22-2013, 05:09 PM
  #625
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why?
Because he is the player I would want to lead the Montreal Canadiens.

I still feel like Koivu should be captain.

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