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Arron Asham on Torts and his future

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Old
07-20-2013, 10:25 AM
  #76
chosen
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I never said Torts should not be fired. All teams tune out their coach after 3 years.

The point is that fans believe that if a coach does not deliver a Cup, he sucks. Who cares about personnel?

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07-20-2013, 10:25 PM
  #77
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John Tortorella the inventor of joyless hockey. Where every game is decided by one goal, a frustrating PP, and Hank standing on his head. Never happy when winning and a temperamental child when losing. The octogenarian GM Glen sather called him "beyond stubborn". His style failed. Time to move on.

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07-21-2013, 09:21 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Richards had more influence than Callahan?

Callahan and Richards sat back and took beatings?

Callahan doesn't seem the type to challenge Torts?

Three opinions that seem to be pulled out of thin air, to me. Is there any evidence of this? Is this something that is picked up by watching a a game or a press conference or an in between period interview?

Where do these beliefs come from?

Richards being called out publicly by his coach, then demoted to the 4th line, then flat out scratched isn't proof enough?

When did Callahan ever publicly challenge Torts? When did Callahan ever say anything that didn't toe the company line.

Callahan is easily one of the biggest "yes" captains this team has had in a while.

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07-21-2013, 09:31 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mouth View Post
John Tortorella the inventor of joyless hockey. Where every game is decided by one goal, a frustrating PP, and Hank standing on his head. Never happy when winning and a temperamental child when losing. The octogenarian GM Glen sather called him "beyond stubborn". His style failed. Time to move on.
I just read that whole post in that voice u put on lol

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07-21-2013, 09:34 AM
  #80
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The Rangers have the personnel with speed and size to confront the puck, put pressure on opposing d-men, and counter from the forced turnovers. They have the players to dump in corners, and grind out a cycle that leads to a shot on goal from the point.

It's too friggin easy. Throw the puck to the point, get bodies in front, and throw it back towards the net. Rangers' d-men never shot the puck off a cycle unless they were wide open by 20 feet. That is all Torts' doing.

The Rangers had one coach in almost 75 years win a Cup, and what a surprise, he preached relentless puck pressure in the offensive zone by all three forwards, pinching d-men, and denying the opponents d-man to make heady up-ice decisions with the puck.

The 2014 Rangers are still green, but they need to use their speed and athleticism for a "60 Minutes of Hell" press. The sitting back and letting the other team dictate play to me is the biggest indictment of a coach who was hard on the outisde but soft as butter on the inside.

It's a shame Avery was such a d-bag and had a 10-cent head, because he was one of the best at forcing turnovers and pressing the puck, and he had enough skill to set up scoring plays from his forecheck.

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07-21-2013, 10:20 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mouth View Post
John Tortorella the inventor of joyless hockey. Where every game is decided by one goal, a frustrating PP, and Hank standing on his head. Never happy when winning and a temperamental child when losing. The octogenarian GM Glen sather called him "beyond stubborn". His style failed. Time to move on.
Yes it is time to move on, hopefully not to all that joyful hockey under Low, Trottier, Muckler, etc. Looking forward to see what AV does.

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07-21-2013, 10:53 AM
  #82
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This is a game. Even though players are paid they play their best when they enjoy the game. Torts was a miserable guy to be around. The fans, media, players and GM have spoken about that. He got fired for the same reason in Tampa. The former Tampa GM (Feaster) there who is his friend even spoke about players that could not stand being around him anymore and stopped listening to him.

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07-21-2013, 11:28 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
The Rangers have the personnel with speed and size to confront the puck, put pressure on opposing d-men, and counter from the forced turnovers. They have the players to dump in corners, and grind out a cycle that leads to a shot on goal from the point.

It's too friggin easy. Throw the puck to the point, get bodies in front, and throw it back towards the net. Rangers' d-men never shot the puck off a cycle unless they were wide open by 20 feet. That is all Torts' doing.

The Rangers had one coach in almost 75 years win a Cup, and what a surprise, he preached relentless puck pressure in the offensive zone by all three forwards, pinching d-men, and denying the opponents d-man to make heady up-ice decisions with the puck.

The 2014 Rangers are still green, but they need to use their speed and athleticism for a "60 Minutes of Hell" press. The sitting back and letting the other team dictate play to me is the biggest indictment of a coach who was hard on the outisde but soft as butter on the inside.

It's a shame Avery was such a d-bag and had a 10-cent head, because he was one of the best at forcing turnovers and pressing the puck, and he had enough skill to set up scoring plays from his forecheck.
I never saw Avery as a d-bag or a player with a 10 cent head--nor did I think he was that terrific a forechecker. He was very good and patient with the puck when he was down low in the other team's end and capable of making some nice plays. By the end of his time here he was a turnover machine in his own end--not sure how much effect the coaching had on that--I always kind of looked at it as he was declining.

What really is ludicrous though is comparing the personnel of the 12-13 team as if they were on the same level with the 93-94 team. Not even ****ing close. Last year's team had one and only one advantage over the 93-94 Stanley Cup championship team--Lundqvist is a better goalie than Richter ever was though Richter was very good. We have no one that compares to Brian Leetch or Sergei Zubov--we don't have a physical force like Beukeboom on the back end. No forward remotely in Messier's league-- or power forward like Graves. Of last year's team maybe 4 forwards--3 d-men and the goalie could have played on that team and one of the d-men was missing for half the season. Last year's team was not talented enough, not big enough, not tough or mean enough--did not have personnel that could make other teams pay when they took penalties. Keenan was more or less along for the ride and it's very debatable to say that he's a better coach than Tortorella.

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07-21-2013, 11:47 AM
  #84
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Based on regular season and playoff records combined its debatable to say Torts was a better coach than Renney.

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07-21-2013, 11:57 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
I never saw Avery as a d-bag or a player with a 10 cent head--nor did I think he was that terrific a forechecker. He was very good and patient with the puck when he was down low in the other team's end and capable of making some nice plays. By the end of his time here he was a turnover machine in his own end--not sure how much effect the coaching had on that--I always kind of looked at it as he was declining.

What really is ludicrous though is comparing the personnel of the 12-13 team as if they were on the same level with the 93-94 team. Not even ****ing close. Last year's team had one and only one advantage over the 93-94 Stanley Cup championship team--Lundqvist is a better goalie than Richter ever was though Richter was very good. We have no one that compares to Brian Leetch or Sergei Zubov--we don't have a physical force like Beukeboom on the back end. No forward remotely in Messier's league-- or power forward like Graves. Of last year's team maybe 4 forwards--3 d-men and the goalie could have played on that team and one of the d-men was missing for half the season. Last year's team was not talented enough, not big enough, not tough or mean enough--did not have personnel that could make other teams pay when they took penalties. Keenan was more or less along for the ride and it's very debatable to say that he's a better coach than Tortorella.
Every time I see one of the early 90s Rangers teams brought up in comparison to the Rangers of the past few years, I cringe. It was brought up earlier in the thread as well when someone mentioned Roger Nielson's firing as a comparable situation to the firing of Torts. I'm not sure if some people just mention those examples out of context or if they genuinely believe there are similarities between the rosters of these teams.

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07-21-2013, 03:15 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Richards being called out publicly by his coach, then demoted to the 4th line, then flat out scratched isn't proof enough?

When did Callahan ever publicly challenge Torts? When did Callahan ever say anything that didn't toe the company line.

Callahan is easily one of the biggest "yes" captains this team has had in a while.
Richards had power but was publicly called out by his coach. That does not reconcile.

Name all the captains that have EVER called out their coach.

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07-21-2013, 03:16 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mouth View Post
John Tortorella the inventor of joyless hockey. Where every game is decided by one goal, a frustrating PP, and Hank standing on his head. Never happy when winning and a temperamental child when losing. The octogenarian GM Glen sather called him "beyond stubborn". His style failed. Time to move on.
Most hockey games are close.

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07-21-2013, 03:18 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
The Rangers have the personnel with speed and size to confront the puck, put pressure on opposing d-men, and counter from the forced turnovers. They have the players to dump in corners, and grind out a cycle that leads to a shot on goal from the point.

It's too friggin easy. Throw the puck to the point, get bodies in front, and throw it back towards the net. Rangers' d-men never shot the puck off a cycle unless they were wide open by 20 feet. That is all Torts' doing.

The Rangers had one coach in almost 75 years win a Cup, and what a surprise, he preached relentless puck pressure in the offensive zone by all three forwards, pinching d-men, and denying the opponents d-man to make heady up-ice decisions with the puck.

The 2014 Rangers are still green, but they need to use their speed and athleticism for a "60 Minutes of Hell" press. The sitting back and letting the other team dictate play to me is the biggest indictment of a coach who was hard on the outisde but soft as butter on the inside.

It's a shame Avery was such a d-bag and had a 10-cent head, because he was one of the best at forcing turnovers and pressing the puck, and he had enough skill to set up scoring plays from his forecheck.
Keenan also had the best team. That played a minor role.

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07-21-2013, 03:21 PM
  #89
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This is a game. Even though players are paid they play their best when they enjoy the game. Torts was a miserable guy to be around. The fans, media, players and GM have spoken about that. He got fired for the same reason in Tampa. The former Tampa GM (Feaster) there who is his friend even spoke about players that could not stand being around him anymore and stopped listening to him.
Who cares if players hate their coach. The greatest US hockey Olympic showing ever came about from a strategy that was based on hating their coach.

We are talking about supposed professionals.

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07-21-2013, 03:29 PM
  #90
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Who cares if players hate their coach. The greatest US hockey Olympic showing ever came about from a strategy that was based on hating their coach.

We are talking about supposed professionals.
While plenty of champions have fully respected their coach ala Greg Popovich and the Spurs. Players are professionals. As professionals they should treat their coach in a respectable manner and vice versa. Very few people in this world are respected long term if they are disrespecting other people often.

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07-22-2013, 06:54 AM
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While plenty of champions have fully respected their coach ala Greg Popovich and the Spurs. Players are professionals. As professionals they should treat their coach in a respectable manner and vice versa. Very few people in this world are respected long term if they are disrespecting other people often.
There has never been a team where someone on the roster has not felt disrespected. Get 20 people together in a pressure cooker environment and some will be unhappy. Just the way it is.

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07-22-2013, 07:00 AM
  #92
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I never said Torts should not be fired. All teams tune out their coach after 3 years.

The point is that fans believe that if a coach does not deliver a Cup, he sucks. Who cares about personnel?
Still putting words in people's mouths I see. No one ever said that the personnel weren't also at fault. What don't you understand about EVERYONE sharing a portion of the blame? The players were to blame. Management was to blame. And yes, Torts was to blame. You can't fire all the players and we all know Sather isn't leaving until he wants to, so Torts was the one to go. End of story.

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07-22-2013, 08:43 AM
  #93
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Keenan also had the best team. That played a minor role.
So what happened in 1993 and 1995?

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07-22-2013, 08:56 AM
  #94
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Richards had power but was publicly called out by his coach. That does not reconcile.

Name all the captains that have EVER called out their coach.

You asked what kind of beating Richards took and I had to remind you.

Calling out the coach doesnt have to be public. It can be in private, and revealed to the press that team leadership had an intervetion with the coach and it turned things around.

Strahan and Eli with Coughlin, Messier with Keenan, and the 1989 Michigan Men's BBall teams are some examples. Glen Rice and Rumeal Robinson went to Bo Schembechler and told him Frieder was preoccupied with another school.

Dwight Howard called out SVG.

Steve Young had a well publicized public feud with George Siefert the year they won the Super Bowl.


Is that eneough for you?

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07-22-2013, 08:34 PM
  #95
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Still putting words in people's mouths I see. No one ever said that the personnel weren't also at fault. What don't you understand about EVERYONE sharing a portion of the blame? The players were to blame. Management was to blame. And yes, Torts was to blame. You can't fire all the players and we all know Sather isn't leaving until he wants to, so Torts was the one to go. End of story.
I didn't put words in anyone's mouth. Ironically, that happened to me in this thread, but I didn't kick and scream about it.

I always find it funny when people pop off and then scream End of Story. Reminds me of the kids who ran home with the ball.

Anyway, I will continue to offer my opinions on any topic I choose. A mod has the right to silence me. You don't have that right.

Back on topic, I already very clearly stated that I had no problem with firing Torts. My issue is with people who make wide-sweeping statements that are based on opinion with no facts to back up their arguments. I like asking those people where their opinions come from. Most understand this and then try to present evidence. Others prefer to yell at the one asking for justifications for opinions.

Too often people use generalizations and assumptions when making their argument as if they know what goes on in the locker room. I have no idea what goes on in there and for the most part, none of us do. So, when someone tells me that Callahan does not go after the coach when he should, I wonder how someone knows that and ask for examples of other captains who go after their coach. I know of Messier doing those things but can't think of another captain who does so, so to me it is a bogus position to take.


Last edited by chosen: 07-22-2013 at 08:43 PM.
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07-22-2013, 08:36 PM
  #96
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So what happened in 1993 and 1995?
He didn't have the best team. How often since then has a team repeated as Cup champs. It has become incredibly hard to do that.

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07-22-2013, 08:39 PM
  #97
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You asked what kind of beating Richards took and I had to remind you.

Calling out the coach doesnt have to be public. It can be in private, and revealed to the press that team leadership had an intervetion with the coach and it turned things around.

Strahan and Eli with Coughlin, Messier with Keenan, and the 1989 Michigan Men's BBall teams are some examples. Glen Rice and Rumeal Robinson went to Bo Schembechler and told him Frieder was preoccupied with another school.

Dwight Howard called out SVG.

Steve Young had a well publicized public feud with George Siefert the year they won the Super Bowl.


Is that eneough for you?
The topic is captains in hockey, and no.

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07-22-2013, 08:48 PM
  #98
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You do put words in people's mouths or you infer a dramatic or altered version of the intended message.

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07-22-2013, 09:40 PM
  #99
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The topic is captains in hockey, and no.
No it wasn't. Not my first comment at least.

And mark Messier played hockey.

Welcome aboard.

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07-22-2013, 09:47 PM
  #100
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I didn't put words in anyone's mouth. Ironically, that happened to me in this thread, but I didn't kick and scream about it.
Lol. Then maybe you can point me to the post where someone claimed that Torts was 100% at fault and the players deserved none of the blame. You know, like you keep claiming other people have said.

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