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The Michael McCarron Thread - Part II : Bigger, Stronger and Meaner

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Old
07-22-2013, 08:47 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Everyone around here and their dogs know you didn't like the pick to begin with. But at the very least, respect the right of a proven/seasoned scout to give his opinion on the player... plus, what about people do the exact opposite of what you suggested, and predict stuff... because... you know... we're on a forum.
Where in that quoted post does it say that I don't respect Grant's opinion? Keep reaching HiggsBozon, you might hit the target one day

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07-22-2013, 09:01 PM
  #427
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Where in that quoted post does it say that I don't respect Grant's opinion? Keep reaching HiggsBozon, you might hit the target one day
Who else exactly makes bold predictions in this thread besides Grant?

Yeah, that's what I thought. I think you mentionning "stop predicting things" is pretty arrogant of your part when there's a guy in here who knows more than all of this board about hockey and prospects developement.

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07-22-2013, 09:06 PM
  #428
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Who else exactly makes bold predictions in this thread besides Grant?
The guy a few pages back who said he would bust?

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Yeah, that's what I thought. I think you mentionning "stop predicting things" is pretty arrogant of your part when there's a guy in here who knows more than all of this board about hockey and prospects developement
It's arrogant because you assume it was directed at Grant, but it wasn't. Again, keep reaching.

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07-22-2013, 09:18 PM
  #429
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Discuss the topic at hand people, not the posters.
You have to admit, this thread has became a concentration of great posts with McCagg and Mathletics arguing like that.

Maths, I am sorry I made fun of you earlier, im just a wiseass who likes to throw jokes. But this wiseass has an actuarial background and would be happy to go check your models and methodology.

McCagg, you know already my respect for your opinion ^_^

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07-22-2013, 09:25 PM
  #430
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You have to admit, this thread has became a concentration of great posts with McCagg and Mathletics arguing like that.

Maths, I am sorry I made fun of you earlier, im just a wiseass who likes to throw jokes. But this wiseass has an actuarial background and would be happy to go check your models and methodology.

McCagg, you know already my respect for your opinion ^_^
Of course. But my post had little to do with their actual posts and more to do with people adding their own superfluous jabs at whoever. I'm enjoying the conversation as much as anyone

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07-22-2013, 10:32 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Who else exactly makes bold predictions in this thread besides Grant?

Yeah, that's what I thought. I think you mentionning "stop predicting things" is pretty arrogant of your part when there's a guy in here who knows more than all of this board about hockey and prospects developement.

I'm not making bold predictions I don't think. Since we've drafted McCarron there have been plenty of folks come on here and suggest he well could be a bust, not just in this thread.

It's possible to have a healthy debate on here without it turning into a pizzing match I hope.

I wasn't specific in who said what in a couple of instances - some of my comments may have been mistakenly thought to be directed at Mathletic when they were directed at a group because it was a general comment about people calling him a bust and such. So let's not try to make this a McCagg vs. Mathletic "battle" just because we had some lengthy posts. It's not a matter of picking sides, it's a matter of having healthy debate.

Stats are great and certainly have a place in discussions...so are the opinions of NHL scouts. All of this is positive even if some of us get worked up. We're allowed to be passionate, it's a fairly common human emotion.

I'm sure I come across as pompous to some, just as a number of posters on here can be rather presumptuous and matter of factly in my estimation. Hard to tell when someone is lying to you or bending the truth as it's often hard to prove what the other person is saying. Many have a habit of stretching the truth in how often they've seen a player, or people they've talked to so that their opinion seems more credible. I do know that I don't come on here and BS people...if i say I talked to another scout and this is what they said...I'm not stretching the truth for my own agenda. I really don't have an agenda..just like to share my work and knowledge on this board. I find it an informative place - and respect the majority of the posters on here.

Many Habs fans have this natural tendency to to look at the negative. It's far too early to pronounce McCarron to be a potential bust....but I've seen it mentioned by more posters on here than any other since Price was picked ahead of Brule and Kopitar in 2006. I thought it was ridiculous to be so over-reactive then and I think the same now.

Let's have patience with McCarron. I really like what I've seen, and have heard many good things from scouts so far - hopefully we're not wrong. Just wish there was a little more faith in the masses, especially so early on with a prospect. Timmins and co. are good talent evaluators - Timmins has only improved in that department as his career has gone on in my opinion, and the stats bear it out in the number of prospects he has graduated, more than anyone else since he joined the Habs.

Anyway - I've had some free time over the past month to respond to the McCarron comedown squad..which seemingly has only grown since the draft. I daresay if I hadn't been in Mac's corner since the draft...the herd of negative sheep would have multiplied, and there would be weekly threads started on "the McCarron bust factor".

I'm happy that many of you respected my information and viewpoints, and also not surprised that ones who are disappointed in the pick think I'm kissing ass or just plain pompous..there's always going to be that crowd.

Holidays are pretty much over for me. I am writing a book that I'm slated to be releasing at Christmas time on hockey history in the region I'm from, and I can't be postponing the writing end of things any longer. Been getting warmed up on here as you can probably tell by the length of my posts the past couple of days..but the "fun" is over, and I have to get back to my book project and home renovations now that the hot snap is over.

I've enjoyed the lively discussions, and will still check in on occasion.

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Old
07-23-2013, 10:53 AM
  #432
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While I love the idea of the ever increasing stats analysis and ifs acceptance in all sports, a mix of both that and eyes on the prospect, interviewing junior coaches, character assessment ect.... Is the way to go.

McCarron will be what he'll be, at the end of the day "he is what he is" well all say

Thanks Grant for the ongoing info on McAttack and all others and to mathletic for an interesting read. Def going to look Into ur stuff outta interest.

PS- I believe McCarron should be in London today or tommirrow.
Hopefully Prust has a few sit downs with the big guy. I have friend who helps ( and has for years) with Prusts conditioning and stuff, at different levels thru the summers. Hopefully he can also get a sit down or two with Mc. He helped Prust a bit with the fist a cuffs as far back as a teen, but also offers so much more than just that.

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07-23-2013, 11:24 AM
  #433
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Isn't Jonathan Chainberg Brandon Prust's fitness cosch?

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07-23-2013, 01:51 PM
  #434
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A friend who has helped at differing levels of involvement going back years. In the off season while Prust is in London. He's worked with a few other ex knights at times, over the years, but isnt full time into strength and cond. training. Every year thou be works with a (or couple) local OHL kids not on the Knights.
I don't not mean to imply he's been the only one or the main one every year.
Sorry if my post wasnt clear on that.


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07-23-2013, 02:17 PM
  #435
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A friend who has helped at differing levels of involvement going back years. In the off season while Prust is in London. He's worked with a few other ex knights at times, over the years, but isnt full time into strength and cond. training. Every year thou be works with a (or couple) local OHL kids not on the Knights.
I don't not mean to imply he's been the only one or the main one every year.
Sorry if my post wasnt clear on that.
The more he can recieve tips on conditioning/strenght training, the better.

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07-25-2013, 02:17 PM
  #436
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Thx for info. He needs alot of works before we can see him with big club. He can be bust as well. Come on he is our 1 st pick but 25 nd

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07-25-2013, 02:53 PM
  #437
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I think it's crazy to assume there's no chance he busts...first of all, any prospect can bust, especially one picked 25th. But besides that, the more I learn about him, the more he seems like a very unique prospect. He probably won't be the second coming of Lucic, he probably won't be the second coming of Jessiman either. But there's a lot that can happen with big guys like that, especially with someone whose frame is bulky to an unprecedented level for a forward that age. Having to balance the physical advantage he has over almost everyone, especially in his age group, and not rely exclusively on that will be a test.

Admittedly my initial anger against the pick had to do with how much I liked Zykov, and in general I'm wary about a prospect who the first thing you hear about is their size going in the first round. And McCarron isn't exactly Barkov, he has a lot he needs to work on. But I'm going to be cautiously optimistic, especially since I'm hearing mostly good things from scouts I tend to trust, from Grant to Pronman. And we don't have to expect an all-star from the 25th pick.

This draft was definitely interesting. Not last year interest, but except for the Crisp pick the rest made a lot of sense.

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07-25-2013, 08:09 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I'm not making bold predictions I don't think. Since we've drafted McCarron there have been plenty of folks come on here and suggest he well could be a bust, not just in this thread.

It's possible to have a healthy debate on here without it turning into a pizzing match I hope.

I wasn't specific in who said what in a couple of instances - some of my comments may have been mistakenly thought to be directed at Mathletic when they were directed at a group because it was a general comment about people calling him a bust and such. So let's not try to make this a McCagg vs. Mathletic "battle" just because we had some lengthy posts. It's not a matter of picking sides, it's a matter of having healthy debate.

Stats are great and certainly have a place in discussions...so are the opinions of NHL scouts. All of this is positive even if some of us get worked up. We're allowed to be passionate, it's a fairly common human emotion.

I'm sure I come across as pompous to some, just as a number of posters on here can be rather presumptuous and matter of factly in my estimation. Hard to tell when someone is lying to you or bending the truth as it's often hard to prove what the other person is saying. Many have a habit of stretching the truth in how often they've seen a player, or people they've talked to so that their opinion seems more credible. I do know that I don't come on here and BS people...if i say I talked to another scout and this is what they said...I'm not stretching the truth for my own agenda. I really don't have an agenda..just like to share my work and knowledge on this board. I find it an informative place - and respect the majority of the posters on here.

Many Habs fans have this natural tendency to to look at the negative. It's far too early to pronounce McCarron to be a potential bust....but I've seen it mentioned by more posters on here than any other since Price was picked ahead of Brule and Kopitar in 2006. I thought it was ridiculous to be so over-reactive then and I think the same now.

Let's have patience with McCarron. I really like what I've seen, and have heard many good things from scouts so far - hopefully we're not wrong. Just wish there was a little more faith in the masses, especially so early on with a prospect. Timmins and co. are good talent evaluators - Timmins has only improved in that department as his career has gone on in my opinion, and the stats bear it out in the number of prospects he has graduated, more than anyone else since he joined the Habs.

Anyway - I've had some free time over the past month to respond to the McCarron comedown squad..which seemingly has only grown since the draft. I daresay if I hadn't been in Mac's corner since the draft...the herd of negative sheep would have multiplied, and there would be weekly threads started on "the McCarron bust factor".

I'm happy that many of you respected my information and viewpoints, and also not surprised that ones who are disappointed in the pick think I'm kissing ass or just plain pompous..there's always going to be that crowd.

Holidays are pretty much over for me. I am writing a book that I'm slated to be releasing at Christmas time on hockey history in the region I'm from, and I can't be postponing the writing end of things any longer. Been getting warmed up on here as you can probably tell by the length of my posts the past couple of days..but the "fun" is over, and I have to get back to my book project and home renovations now that the hot snap is over.

I've enjoyed the lively discussions, and will still check in on occasion.
Good Luck with the book Grant, i have enjoyed reading your posts. Most people here talk out of their a** but you back it up with facts.

All the best!

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07-25-2013, 08:51 PM
  #439
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I think it's crazy to assume there's no chance he busts...first of all, any prospect can bust, especially one picked 25th. But besides that, the more I learn about him, the more he seems like a very unique prospect. He probably won't be the second coming of Lucic, he probably won't be the second coming of Jessiman either. But there's a lot that can happen with big guys like that, especially with someone whose frame is bulky to an unprecedented level for a forward that age. Having to balance the physical advantage he has over almost everyone, especially in his age group, and not rely exclusively on that will be a test.

Admittedly my initial anger against the pick had to do with how much I liked Zykov, and in general I'm wary about a prospect who the first thing you hear about is their size going in the first round. And McCarron isn't exactly Barkov, he has a lot he needs to work on. But I'm going to be cautiously optimistic, especially since I'm hearing mostly good things from scouts I tend to trust, from Grant to Pronman. And we don't have to expect an all-star from the 25th pick.

This draft was definitely interesting. Not last year interest, but except for the Crisp pick the rest made a lot of sense.
1. Nobody is saying he can't bust, but to mention bust right after the draft is dis-ingenious. What's the point of stating the obvious that any player can bust? This has nothing to do with McCarron.

2. You are proving Grant's point about personal agenda's. You prefer Zykov so you crap on McCarron.

3. The amount of pretentiousness is outrageous. It's like telling your doctor that you have a different opinion on his diagnostic. And yes doctors do make mistakes....

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07-26-2013, 05:02 AM
  #440
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Does anyone have the success rate of 6'3 - 6'4 - 6'5 FORWARDS chosen in the 1st and 2nd Rounds? (in last 10-15 yrs).



Go McCarron Go!! (you better make it! we're all counting on you, except for bitter Leaf and Bruin fans who want McCarron to fail!).
(McCarron in the NHL in 2014-2015 or 2015-2016).



McCarron = Irish, French-Quebecois name...everyone wins in Quebec, tabarouette!



p.s.: lots of egos in this thread! so much pride on the line! go ego go! (but imo...take it easy...there's more to life than ego!).

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07-26-2013, 08:31 AM
  #441
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I will just name you some names that arte 6'3 and over that are from the 1st round and that are successful that ok?

ok
Ryan Getzlaf 6'4", 221 lbs
Corey Perry 6'3", 210 lbs
Evgeni Malkin 6'3", 195 lbs
Rick Nash 6'4", 213 lbs
Jeff Carter 6'4", 210 lbs
Anze Kopitar 6'3", 225 lbs
Eric Staal 6'4", 205 lbs
Jordan Staal 6'4", 220 lbs
Jason Spezza 6'3", 215 lbs
Sean Couturier 6'3", 197 lbs
Dany Heatley 6'4", 218 lbs

Alex Ovechkin 6'3", 230 lbs

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07-26-2013, 08:45 AM
  #442
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I will just name you some names that arte 6'3 and over that are from the 1st round and that are successful that ok?

ok
Ryan Getzlaf 6'4", 221 lbs
Corey Perry 6'3", 210 lbs
Evgeni Malkin 6'3", 195 lbs
Rick Nash 6'4", 213 lbs
Jeff Carter 6'4", 210 lbs
Anze Kopitar 6'3", 225 lbs
Eric Staal 6'4", 205 lbs
Jordan Staal 6'4", 220 lbs
Jason Spezza 6'3", 215 lbs
Sean Couturier 6'3", 197 lbs
Dany Heatley 6'4", 218 lbs

Alex Ovechkin 6'3", 230 lbs
Every player develops differently, the players you listed are also very different. Just because they made it doesn't mean McCarron will, that goes for Jessiman too. Because he was a bust doesn't mean McCarron will be one. You can't look at prospects and say ''these guys made it so for sure McCarron will make it'' that's not how it works.

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07-26-2013, 10:00 AM
  #443
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1. Nobody is saying he can't bust, but to mention bust right after the draft is dis-ingenious. What's the point of stating the obvious that any player can bust? This has nothing to do with McCarron.
Well, McCarron fits the profile of the type of player who frequently bust. It's a superficial analysis, but any guys that size left after the top 10 will almost always have either a glaring flaw or be raw. Our scouts were pretty confident when it comes to McCarron but there was a reason he was passed over by other teams, even those drafting for size in the first round. So far the "next Lucic" drafting philosophy has lead to more jokes than anything else.

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2. You are proving Grant's point about personal agenda's. You prefer Zykov so you crap on McCarron.
And I'm admitting it.

But Zykov was just one player and not a particularly revolutionary prospect, in general I don't like the idea of going with a project in the first round based on needs. However it came together somewhat when they picked a "safe" prospect (DLR) and two BPAs (Fucale and Lehkonen) in the second round, so if you take the two first rounds together, it wasn't bad at all.


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3. The amount of pretentiousness is outrageous. It's like telling your doctor that you have a different opinion on his diagnostic. And yes doctors do make mistakes....
This is the forum on a hockey prospect site. If we aren't allowed to have differing opinions from professional scouts why should this forum even exist? I'm not claiming to be an expert, in fact I disclaim that nobody should take my judgment seriously as much as possible because I'm just a fan, and have less connections with the sport than a lot of people here. Grant's opinions are worth more than my own, I agree, but much of my opinion is researched with an open mind, and so I don't feel entitled to have to agree with Grant or whoever on everything.

I don't get what's pretentious about having your own opinions on Hockey's Future about prospects. I think McCarron was a second round talent because he's not someone who can be easily projected, that doesn't mean I don't understand the choice.

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I will just name you some names that arte 6'3 and over that are from the 1st round and that are successful that ok?

ok
Ryan Getzlaf 6'4", 221 lbs 19th
Corey Perry 6'3", 210 lbs 28th
Evgeni Malkin 6'3", 195 lbs 2nd
Rick Nash 6'4", 213 lbs 1st
Jeff Carter 6'4", 210 lbs 11th
Anze Kopitar 6'3", 225 lbs 11th
Eric Staal 6'4", 205 lbs 2nd
Jordan Staal 6'4", 220 lbs 2nd
Jason Spezza 6'3", 215 lbs 2nd
Sean Couturier 6'3", 197 lbs 8th
Dany Heatley 6'4", 218 lbs 2nd

Alex Ovechkin 6'3", 230 lbs 1st
Outside of Getzlaf and Perry, notice something about the rest of these guys?

Hindsight is a funny thing. Perry especially there was plenty of questions about such as his skating. He put it together, others do not. Just ask Hugh Jessiman. 6'7" Brian Boyle was drafted before Perry too.


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07-26-2013, 11:41 AM
  #444
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Well, McCarron fits the profile of the type of player who frequently bust. It's a superficial analysis, but any guys that size left after the top 10 will almost always have either a glaring flaw or be raw. Our scouts were pretty confident when it comes to McCarron but there was a reason he was passed over by other teams, even those drafting for size in the first round. So far the "next Lucic" drafting philosophy has lead to more jokes than anything else.



And I'm admitting it.

But Zykov was just one player and not a particularly revolutionary prospect, in general I don't like the idea of going with a project in the first round based on needs. However it came together somewhat when they picked a "safe" prospect (DLR) and two BPAs (Fucale and Lehkonen) in the second round, so if you take the two first rounds together, it wasn't bad at all.




This is the forum on a hockey prospect site. If we aren't allowed to have differing opinions from professional scouts why should this forum even exist? I'm not claiming to be an expert, in fact I disclaim that nobody should take my judgment seriously as much as possible because I'm just a fan, and have less connections with the sport than a lot of people here. Grant's opinions are worth more than my own, I agree, but much of my opinion is researched with an open mind, and so I don't feel entitled to have to agree with Grant or whoever on everything.

I don't get what's pretentious about having your own opinions on Hockey's Future about prospects. I think McCarron was a second round talent because he's not someone who can be easily projected, that doesn't mean I don't understand the choice.



Outside of Getzlaf and Perry, notice something about the rest of these guys?

Hindsight is a funny thing. Perry especially there was plenty of questions about such as his skating. He put it together, others do not. Just ask Hugh Jessiman. 6'7" Brian Boyle was drafted before Perry too.
You still probably never watched the guy play more than a couple of games, if that... I would say that contradicting guys who have seen the guy more than enough to make up their minds on him probably know better.

Saying his chances of busting are any higher than a guy like Zykov at this point is just bad faith, especially when you probably never saw the guy play to begin with.

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07-26-2013, 07:33 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by Mike The Wall View Post
Ryan Getzlaf 6'4", 221 lbs
Corey Perry 6'3", 210 lbs
Evgeni Malkin 6'3", 195 lbs
Rick Nash 6'4", 213 lbs
Jeff Carter 6'4", 210 lbs
Anze Kopitar 6'3", 225 lbs
Eric Staal 6'4", 205 lbs
Jordan Staal 6'4", 220 lbs
Jason Spezza 6'3", 215 lbs
Sean Couturier 6'3", 197 lbs
Dany Heatley 6'4", 218 lbs

Alex Ovechkin 6'3", 230 lbs
Minor difference (being sarcastic here) is that all those guys were domintant junior players before being drafted. Not to mention, more dominant in tougher leagues.

Btw, I really don't think stating facts and giving your opinion is having an agenda against someone (at least based on how I understand the expression having an agenda). People, like myself, simply defend their point on why they liked other players better. Utlimately, those players will decide who would have been the best choice at the position.

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07-27-2013, 05:19 PM
  #446
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You still probably never watched the guy play more than a couple of games, if that... I would say that contradicting guys who have seen the guy more than enough to make up their minds on him probably know better.

Saying his chances of busting are any higher than a guy like Zykov at this point is just bad faith, especially when you probably never saw the guy play to begin with.
Well no, because you can read a little more from the CHL than the USHL that McCarron played in last year.

This isn't to say that a guy like Zykov doesn't have bust potential, he's no blue chip prospect himself, but what made Zykov appealing is by how he adapted to the the Q after never playing in North America before.

On the other hand, it's hard to read that much out of the USHL. We should get a much better idea how "safe" McCarron is next year.

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07-27-2013, 06:56 PM
  #447
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Minor difference (being sarcastic here) is that all those guys were domintant junior players before being drafted. Not to mention, more dominant in tougher leagues.

Btw, I really don't think stating facts and giving your opinion is having an agenda against someone (at least based on how I understand the expression having an agenda). People, like myself, simply defend their point on why they liked other players better. Utlimately, those players will decide who would have been the best choice at the position.
Yea Kopitar was so dominant!

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07-27-2013, 07:01 PM
  #448
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For those who have seen him, how does he compare to Tyler Biggs, an others usntdp offensively challenged big foward?

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07-27-2013, 08:27 PM
  #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DekeLikeYouMeanIt View Post
Yea Kopitar was so dominant!
Yeah, goal per game guy, what a slacker

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07-27-2013, 08:40 PM
  #450
DekeLikeYouMeanIt
Ohhhh you mad
 
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: In space..with goats
Country: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathletic View Post
Yeah, goal per game guy, what a slacker
You do realize he played in Swedish U20....? It was no where as good as it is now. Where were you when that was the biggest question of the draft and the reason he slid?

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