HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-22-2013, 04:11 PM
  #626
WG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
It usually means you get a better or less risky player eh?

No it doesn't usually mean that...it can mean the opposite, no guarantee there

Another assumption
Generally speaking, yes, yes it does.

If the team fills the roster next offseason and has one slot left, say, a scoring winger to take Gio's spot in the lineup or a physical stay at home D, if MB has $5M to spend I'd say the chances to get a good player in that spot are better than if he has $2M.

This does not guarantee anything, nobody claims this. Sure, he could sign a $5M bust. Or we get some bargain bin guy or a rookie who comes in and over-performs at $1M.

But the concept that $5M player is generally > $2M player is pretty obvious, I'd think.

WG is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 04:24 PM
  #627
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That's precisely why some people are already losing faith in Bergevin. His investments aren't that great. Aside from Prust and the extension to MaxPac, he's made questionable investments.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't save when we can though. We have to believe he'll be taking the right decisions, otherwise you don't want him running the show.
So why can't you believe this specific decision was the right one as well?

417 is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 04:33 PM
  #628
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
So your argument is that cap-space shouldn't be saved or tightly managed because the GM might **** it up?
I didn't explicitly and exclusively say it shouldn't be saved or tightly managed because of that, no

417 is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 04:37 PM
  #629
Alexdaman
Registered User
 
Alexdaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,163
vCash: 50
If they were to sign a deal right now I think it would be around 7.5M$/8M$ per for 6 years. If next year is not as good from last and he doesn't get injured maybe they can settle at 6.5M$/7M$ per so I say wait.

Now I say 7.5/8 but when you see Weber making 14M$ for the next three years and 12M$ for the fallowing two, there is room for concern that PK won't be satisfied unless MB goes to 9M$ or 10M$.

Alexdaman is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 04:41 PM
  #630
417
Registered User
 
417's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Haiti
Posts: 19,189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WG View Post
Generally speaking, yes, yes it does.

If the team fills the roster next offseason and has one slot left, say, a scoring winger to take Gio's spot in the lineup or a physical stay at home D, if MB has $5M to spend I'd say the chances to get a good player in that spot are better than if he has $2M.

This does not guarantee anything, nobody claims this. Sure, he could sign a $5M bust. Or we get some bargain bin guy or a rookie who comes in and over-performs at $1M.

But the concept that $5M player is generally > $2M player is pretty obvious, I'd think.
Yes, no one claims that because they can't

They just knock MB's decision to sign PK to a bridge deal because the money they could of saved over the next 5 years COULD of been used to sign a player, or players which COULD of made the team better

Just like if I play lottery this weekend, I COULD win it

Point is I've never argued that giving PK a long term deal off his ELC would of been a bad idea...that would of been fine as well, PK to me is a sure thing

I just disagree that just because they signed him to a bridge deal, and that now his cap hit will be higher...that THIS very fact makes it a bad decision

Maybe this is foolish, but I can't accept that MB didn't know it would cost him more in terms of cap hit

I just think that he feels, just like I do, that there are a number of ways to mitigate this

I understand that from a purely mathematical standpoint in dollars...that it's a loss. But it doesn't have to mean more then that, it doesn't have to affect how this roster will be built

And anyone saying the opposite is just doing guesswork

There will be NO WAY to EVER determine whether the bridge deal or the alternative of signing him to a long term deal off ELC was right or wrong...it's impossible

Actually, the only way would be if the Habs sign PK to a long term deal at 7.5M-8M and he totally flops

But I don't think anyone here, nor in management, believes that to be a plausible outcome

417 is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 05:54 PM
  #631
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 22,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
So why can't you believe this specific decision was the right one as well?
Because we're not talking about an unrestricted free agent here, not about a young prospect who's outcome was still a big question mark. PK was and is our #1 Dman, there was no question about this. The question was more about just how good will he actually be, franchise material or just really solid.
So when you have a sure player like him, you usually want to lock him up for long and cheap. The players that get signed for 1-2 years are those that either need to prove themselves, have little left or are big question marks. PK doesn't fall in any of these categories.
But the way his contract was forced on him and the way Therrien used him (especially before Diaz's injury) leads me to believe they felt he was unproven.
No way you sign a young star player you feel is proven to a short term deal, gimme one example of a team that did this.

All the signs point to them just misreading PK, and now we'll pay him more than what we could have, so to me that is a mistake. Not a huge one, not the end of the world, but it's still a mistake and I don't want them to do the same.

Kriss E is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 05:55 PM
  #632
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 22,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I didn't explicitly and exclusively say it shouldn't be saved or tightly managed because of that, no
But that's what your post leads to believe.

Kriss E is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 06:56 PM
  #633
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
It's not a matter of hindsight.
Really, that's not hindsight?

Quote:
That space we ''saved'' was used for absolutely nothing. That was actually one of the reason some were saying the deal was a good one, because it would permit Bergevin to get a player around the deadline (he didn't), and then it was because he was going to sign some UFA (he did except not the guy anybody here wanted) but we still have the room.
Then you need to review the definition.


Last edited by Habsterix*: 07-22-2013 at 07:32 PM.
Habsterix* is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 07:20 PM
  #634
Andy
Registered User
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,619
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Really, that's not hindsight?


Than you need to review the definition.
I still don't see how its matter of hindsight. You need to do a better job at articulating it

Also, I'm not going to repeat why it's not a matter of hindsight. I already explained in the post you quoted partially. Go back and read it if you want to know why, though I don't expect you to

Andy is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 07:32 PM
  #635
Habsterix*
@Habsterix
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,475
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I respect other opinions. Yours and some others, on this matter, are just not worthy of it.
Yep, those who agree with you. How convenient.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As for your previous post, I didn't see the need to respond to it considering you wrote the same thing to LG and he countered your points well.
LG has been excellent at moving the goal post and not responding to what I brought forward. Let's see if you follow in the same trend...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
MaxPac almost got decapitated, how you conveniently leave this out makes me lose respect for your post. This isn't something that you can just shove under the rug. He also, as you mentioned, just scored 24pts. I don't care in how many games, the sample size is just way too small for it to warrant a long term investment.
24 points... including 14 goals in only 37 games! He was becoming the power forward needed with this team... decapitated or not. Andrei Markov had just received two major knee surgeries and received a $5.75M contract per season... what's your point? Are you suggesting that had it not been for the Chara hit, Pacioretty would have signed long term?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As for Price, no, he didn't steal the starting job from Huet. They were both used evenly, and then Gainey moved Huet giving Price the position, it left a lot of people scratching their heads. Now that this is clear. Price also LOST the #1 spot to Halak. How you again leave this out shows you're only trying to find excuses.
He stole the starting job from Huet by outperforming him. He lost his job (temporarily I must add) to a goalie who became hot for a stretch and they (rightfully) went with the hot hand. Not because of Price's skills. But again, it doesn't take away what Price had accomplished, I might add. Are you suggesting that Price would have signed long term had Halak flopped?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What about Kane? Toews? and the many others who have been gambled on and it paid off??
You need to review the definition of "risk" and "might". Those are no certainties, but just like it doesn't guarantee that Subban would for sure slump, it doesn't mean either that he wouldn't have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As for Myers, he struggled in his sophomore year, a lot. Then he got injured. Never been the same since. But really a 10M signing bonus? Not at all comparable to PK. Skinner is the same, those kids showed signs of dropping after their rookie year. Not PK.
Oh boy, splitting hair. And what about Subban's issues with his teammates and his maturity? No sign for concern? Definitely is in the real world. Remember though, something you and your buddies struggle with is going back when the negotiations where happening, not in hindsight...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
First off, I think your points are garbage because they are that, not because you disagree with me.
Yeah right! lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
1- Bridge contract is one thing, I have mentioned I could let this go. Forcing your star player to miss the beginning of the season because you want him to sign a way below value deal is something completely different.
How do YOU know that it's the organization forcing him to miss the start of the season and not Subban holding back for the long term deal? Or is it possible that it takes two to tango and both were holding off based on the length of the contract and not the amount, as they both reported in the media? A bit of bias, perhaps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
2- The cap will go down, and we had enough space with the compliance buy outs.
Define enough without using hindsight. You claim loud and clear to whomever wants to buy the kool-aid you're selling that the Habs are building for 2 to 4 years down the road, yet we're talking about a team who finished second in the East this past year. Most reasonable fan was saying that the previous year was bad luck due to injuries, that the Habs were better than what their record showed... and they simply proved it by being somewhat healthy (except in the playoffs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
3- Gionta and Markov's contracts will come off by next year, but you're assuming they won't be re-signed or replaced. Gionta maybe can be let go, but Markov, if he has a similar year or even improves shouldn't. You also don't mention there are other FAs up for re-signals like Emelin and Eller, and perhaps Diaz if we keep him. Not to mention, addition of UFAs.
I did not assume anything about Gio and Markov. I even said that even signing Subban for $8M, there was $12M left to sign replacements/other RFAs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
4- Subban having issues in the locker room is media hoopla garbage. Nothing factual came of this other than Gill telling PK to pick up his jersey when he threw it on the floor, or others telling him to change the music. It's completely speculative from your part. He did fight in practice, but if you see it's from him battling with guys in corners. Plekanec has been involved as well, so did DD, so do a million of other guys. Obviously the guy that has a bigger personality gets the bad rep.
Yes, media cameras lie for your convenience Kriss. It's all made up. But my stuff is garbage. I understand now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Otherwise, PK's work ethic is irreproachable, he is a professional, never caught doing something bad, off ice training is amazing, always in camp in great shape. But ya, he has issues..
I've never, ever attacked Subban's work ethic so you bringing this up is irrelevant. I agree with you on that. Nice try though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
5- Completely speculative. Players can hold grudges via coaches or GMs. It's not because it's a business that every decision from management is right, and when it's wrong, players have every right to be upset.
Arbitration is completely different than making your star miss the start of the year, seemingly alienate him from the team, and force him to take a well below value deal. They are world apart. For the record, I never thought arbitration would make Plekanec leave.
There you go again blaming the organization for Subban missing the start of the season... smoke screen at best as something tells me that Subban also had something to do with missing the start of the season.

As for the "below his true value", let's agree to disagree. We're talking about a RFA with little rights here, not a UFA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
6/7- Again, a bridge contract is one thing, forcing him to take well below his value is another. If Gally ends up having two 80pts+ season back to back, I'll be very surprised if he agrees to 2y/4M. Same can be said of every other player.
Why such low dollars? IF (and that's a big if) he puts out those numbers, he'll get more than $4M I would think... but it may not be $8M. We'll have to see though. But the point is not to try to predict numbers, but rather the FACT that Bergevin instated a way of conducting business with a bridging contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
8- Yes, Bergevin has no choice but to give him his big pay day now. He could have had him for cheaper before, he decided to make the commitments and risks on local less important players like DD and Bouillon.
What do DD and Bouillon, two players who had UFA in their contracts, have to do with Subban? The last I checked, Subban doesn't play center and he can't spend 60 minutes on the ice. Better Bouillon to groom Tinordi than Subban at this point in their career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The cap hit is where it differs, this is also following your numbers only.

You're right that the cap will be the lowest next year, but that's not when it'll be the most important to us. The cap hit will be the most important when we're closer to contention, that's hopefully between 2-4years. That's when we'll have a few players off their ELC, some entering their prime, and we'll need as much cash saved off them so we can go after big names and over pay.
Again with the speculation of 2-4 years when the team just finished second in the East. Many fans will disagree with you there and I'm one of them. When you make the playoffs and finish that high, you're closer than 2-4 years, at least in my opinion. But see, it's opinions here (yours and mine), not facts. While what I brought up was a fact (saving on the cap when it's at its lowest). Pride aside, do you notice the difference? I hope so anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Also, entirely speculative that PK never bought into a team concept before, and I have a hard time understanding where this comes from when it's clear he's a huge team player. Always praises his teammates, always defends them, never throws anyone under the bridge.
No, you're right Kriss...



Last edited by Habsterix*: 07-22-2013 at 07:40 PM.
Habsterix* is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 08:01 PM
  #636
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,311
vCash: 500
Habsterix,

Have you never had an argument with a coworker?

DAChampion is online now  
Old
07-22-2013, 08:49 PM
  #637
HiggsBozon
LOLZ, keep hating
 
HiggsBozon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,997
vCash: 500
Couturier signed a 2 years extension under 2M per season... but... BUT WHAT IF HE BECOMES A SELKE CANDIDATE?! WHY DIDN'T THEY GIVE HIM 8 YEARS AT 3.75/4M per season?!!!

HiggsBozon is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 08:51 PM
  #638
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 15,447
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post

No, you're right Kriss...

You bought into that CBC BS ? Laughable. That **** happens all the time. PJ Stock... rofl.

E = CH² is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 08:52 PM
  #639
WhiskeySeven
Enlarged Member
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,676
vCash: 500
I refuse to believe that Habsterix watches games and has opinions of his own. It's just vague typhoid-like wisps of media-generated nothingness.

WhiskeySeven is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 08:56 PM
  #640
HiggsBozon
LOLZ, keep hating
 
HiggsBozon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,997
vCash: 500
Hey guys, I've got a wonderful idea. Let's keep defending plugs like Gorges and Gionta who get paid ridiculous amounts of money, and let's focus on bashing the signing of a Norris trophy winner to a salary he's actually worth!

You look at teams around who build champions, they build their roster by giving their franchise players huge contract, and confirm the identity of their teams with key, depth, role players and secondary players.

Signing Subban to a contract he deserves isn't a problem.
Signing Subban to a 5M/per year contract, after two seasons in this league, never breaking once the 40 points mark as an offensive d-man, with reported issues with his teammates (as unwarranted as it might have been, it's still what we were at before this season) would have been gambling on his potential. He was likely going to achieve that potential, but then again, I don't see what's the big deal here.

Some around here have way too few things to worry about if it's really what they're making a big fuss about. Just on that team, several other cases of overpayments could be raised...

But making a big deal out of paying a Norris winner what he's worth? I guess Habs fans REALLY aren't used to having winners on their squad anymore...

HiggsBozon is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 09:25 PM
  #641
WhiskeySeven
Enlarged Member
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,676
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Hey guys, I've got a wonderful idea. Let's keep defending plugs like Gorges and Gionta who get paid ridiculous amounts of money, and let's focus on bashing the signing of a Norris trophy winner to a salary he's actually worth!

You look at teams around who build champions, they build their roster by giving their franchise players huge contract, and confirm the identity of their teams with key, depth, role players and secondary players.

Signing Subban to a contract he deserves isn't a problem.
Signing Subban to a 5M/per year contract, after two seasons in this league, never breaking once the 40 points mark as an offensive d-man, with reported issues with his teammates (as unwarranted as it might have been, it's still what we were at before this season) would have been gambling on his potential. He was likely going to achieve that potential, but then again, I don't see what's the big deal here.

Some around here have way too few things to worry about if it's really what they're making a big fuss about. Just on that team, several other cases of overpayments could be raised...

But making a big deal out of paying a Norris winner what he's worth? I guess Habs fans REALLY aren't used to having winners on their squad anymore...
I hope you understand that the nonsense you spew daily about your nemesis Gorges really discredits a lot of what you have to say.

Subban at this time last year, had proven as much as many of his other contemporaries who were getting much larger second contracts. The ONLY reason Subban is still a Hab is because he LOVES being a Hab. Any other player, Canadian or Russian, would've said F Off! to that handsome idiot in the GM office and forced a trade. Subban played in all situations, against the toughest opponents and demonstrated fantastic awareness and growth. He's big, he's fast, he's smart, he's consistent and he's tremendously respectful to his team and modest toward the media. And this was all him at this time last year.

If Bergevin did well by giving Subban a "bridge" deal (which, surprise, doesn't exist anymore.) then he ought to have done something similar with Desharnais. But he didn't, so either he messed up with DD or messed up with Subban (hint: he messed up with both!). Do you know any other 21min/night d-men who are fast, consistent can score on the PP, and can play physical in the NHL... and are paid anything less than 4mil? There were games in which Subban logged major, major minutes and looked none worse for wear the next game.

Just like the club rewarded Gorges for his professionalism and dedication - they ought to have rewarded Subban. But what happened was the opposite, Subban rewarded the Habs by accepted that ludicrous offer. His agent was probably ripping his hair out. You don't think Philly attempted to offer-sheet him with something more substantial than fkn 2.7mil? AND SUBBAN TURNED THEM DOWN.

WhiskeySeven is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 09:52 PM
  #642
HiggsBozon
LOLZ, keep hating
 
HiggsBozon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,997
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I hope you understand that the nonsense you spew daily about your nemesis Gorges really discredits a lot of what you have to say.
HAH! You're talking about nonsense? Ok. Here we go.

Quote:
The ONLY reason Subban is still a Hab is because he LOVES being a Hab. Any other player, Canadian or Russian, would've said F Off! to that handsome idiot in the GM office and forced a trade.
Assumption #1

Quote:
If Bergevin did well by giving Subban a "bridge" deal (which, surprise, doesn't exist anymore.) then he ought to have done something similar with Desharnais. But he didn't, so either he messed up with DD or messed up with Subban (hint: he messed up with both!).
Fake premise. Desharnais wasn't at his second contract. In fact, he had a "bridge deal" right before his current contract.

Quote:
Do you know any other 21min/night d-men who are fast, consistent can score on the PP, and can play physical in the NHL... and are paid anything less than 4mil? There were games in which Subban logged major, major minutes and looked none worse for wear the next game.
Who is arguing against that exactly? Fact is, while he looked great, and while under 3M a year might have been a low deal, it doesn't affect the team. It doesn't affect it on the short-term. It doesn't affect it on the long-term.

Quote:
Just like the club rewarded Gorges for his professionalism and dedication - they ought to have rewarded Subban. But what happened was the opposite, Subban rewarded the Habs by accepted that ludicrous offer.
I agree with you on that, if a glorified depth, soft, offensively inapt and defensively not always so good d-man can fetch 3.9M per season, so could have Subban.

Quote:
His agent was probably ripping his hair out. You don't think Philly attempted to offer-sheet him with something more substantial than fkn 2.7mil? AND SUBBAN TURNED THEM DOWN.
Assumption #2

That's two assumptions in a few paragraphs.

As for my "cruisade against" Gorges (who btw I didn't mind before his crying and his implosion in the playoffs) taking away my credibility, what does it say about you and your aversion for Brian Gionta? On a hockey forum, guess what. You'll see members/fans hating on some players, and loving some others. You'll see all kinds of opinions.

My point always was and remains that; if we so desperate for money that we wish we would have had Subban for 2-3M under his market value, there are MANY other pieces in the puzzle that can be taken out/re-shaped... especially on a roster paying a more and more inefficient captain 5M, and a guy who arguably was our 6th best d-man last season 3.9M.

HiggsBozon is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 10:14 PM
  #643
Alexdaman
Registered User
 
Alexdaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,163
vCash: 50
Oh boy this is turning out to be worst than the DD thread.

Alexdaman is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 10:23 PM
  #644
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,012
vCash: 50
There's positives on both sides of the argument. I was pro-signing him long term pre-Norris. Now I'd wait and see how he plays and extend him midseason like the did with Desharnais. If his play for whatever reason falls off you won't be stuck paying him 7-8M. There's nothing much really he can do to increase his value further...Norris is as good as it gets for a defenseman.

Watsatheo is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 10:26 PM
  #645
WhiskeySeven
Enlarged Member
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,676
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
HAH! You're talking about nonsense? Ok. Here we go.
By "here we go" I'm now assuming you actually meant to say "here we go to middle school debate class". I'm not going to quote every one of your points one by one, and assumptions are a natural part of a conversation (especially about hockey, especially when we're fans) so pointing them out doesn't discredit my overall point.
Quote:
Fake premise. Desharnais wasn't at his second contract. In fact, he had a "bridge deal" right before his current contract.
I said something similar for Desharnais, calling it whatever doesn't change the fact that DD hadn't played all too many NHL games at a very high level. Also, PK has more NHL games under his belt than Desharnais by ~20.

So what does that say of the undrafted, undersized Desharnais getting a much, much larger contract over PK Subban despite having played less games in the NHL and at an overall lower-level? That Bergevin messed up, that Bergevin was wrong, that we (folks who are ultimately opposed to this bridge-deal nonsense) are right to criticize our increasingly-inept management.

Quote:
Who is arguing against that exactly? Fact is, while he looked great, and while under 3M a year might have been a low deal, it doesn't affect the team. It doesn't affect it on the short-term. It doesn't affect it on the long-term.
Nonsense or drivel, take your pick. Subban signed at ~5mil is a much better asset than Subban signed at ~7mil. He's worth 7mil on the open market, and his agent will be sure to stress that. So would you take 4 lower-first-round picks in exchange for Subban? Because it's either that or sign him at 7.

Quote:
I agree with you on that, if a glorified depth, soft, offensively inapt and defensively not always so good d-man can fetch 3.9M per season, so could have Subban.
Gorges is great defensively, he reads plays very well and neutralizes a lot of the top offensive game-plans in the league with his simple but effective play. He was coming off an ACL injury and looked no worse for wear and he regularly leads the league in blocked shots. He's NOT an offensive defenseman, and he's NOT a bruiser but he is still a very good d-man. 3.8 is fair, there are many d-men who get more and are much worse, and I'm guessing that 3.8/6years are the kind of deal to lock down a core leader of the team who ACTUALLY sacrifices his body night-in night-out.

No one has the time to tell you that "defensively not always so good" means jack in any grown-up hockey discussion. Gorges is good defensively. Our defensive scheme last year unraveled and it didn't make anybody seem good. If it continues next year, don't expect Therrien to finish the season with the Habs - we got figured out and figured out hard and it wasn't that every d-man-except-Subban suddenly forgot how to play hockey, it was a greater tactical failing. We all saw it.

So maybe that's what clouding your judgement toward Gorges? I don't care, it's still nonsense. He's not the best player, he's not even an untouchable player, but he's massively underrated by fans who can't appreciate defensive soundness.
Quote:
As for my "cruisade against" Gorges (who btw I didn't mind before his crying and his implosion in the playoffs) taking away my credibility, what does it say about you and your aversion for Brian Gionta? On a hockey forum, guess what. You'll see members/fans hating on some players, and loving some others. You'll see all kinds of opinions.
By "crying" you mean his stance during the owner-imposed lockout? If you were on any side but the NHLPA you probably still thought the players were the greedy ones this offseason weren't you?

You do make a valid point that people will have different opinions about different players. Doesn't make yours any less arbitrary and stupid however. Do you want a team full of Douglas Murrays and Emelins? Or a team full of Markovs and Diazs? No, there have to be some defensively sound players who don't play huge but aren't freaking superstars. If we had two Gorges to soak in wave-after-wave of attack we'd be money right now. We need another player like him next to Diaz to just eat minutes with minimal fuss. Bouillon is far worse than Gorges.

Quote:
My point always was and remains that; if we so desperate for money that we wish we would have had Subban for 2-3M under his market value, there are MANY other pieces in the puzzle that can be taken out/re-shaped... especially on a roster paying a more and more inefficient captain 5M, and a guy who arguably was our 6th best d-man last season 3.9M.
Bouillon was worse than Gorges, Diaz ended the season worse than Gorges, Beaulieau the rookie was awful, Tinordi the rookie was mediocre-at-best and Drewiskie was so bad he was a trade acquisition that got beat out by the aforementioned two rookies.

I'm not arguing that Gionta shouldn't get the F out of this team, nor that Gorges is toward the upper of his value (he'd be a steal at 3.3, but the difference of 0.5 when you have Gomez, Kaberle and Gionta on the books is literally pocket change) But having Subban at 5 and Subban at 7 IS significant because his contract becomes that much more sensitive (injury issues), that much more immobile and that much less attractive as a trade asset. Subban at 5 gives us a steal, Subban at 7 doesn't.

WhiskeySeven is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 10:36 PM
  #646
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,169
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
LG has been excellent at moving the goal post and not responding to what I brought forward. Let's see if you follow in the same trend...
What are you talking about? You have been cut to shreds in this thread dude. I haven't been unfair with you at all. You just don't have a leg to stand on here. And 417's argument that 'cap space doesn't matter' is without logic as well.

We argued that PK would raise his value and that we'd pay more in the long run. That's exactly what's happened here. The best that can be said about this mess is that our star player didn't demand a trade during his holdout.

Here's the bottom line: Neither of you have a viable argument for MB having made this move. You keep clinging to this argument that it's "an opinion" but your opinion is so poorly supported that it's indefensible. This one is cut and dry and it's beyond reason that you guys can't see this.

Please carry on, but don't sit there and talk like I've "moved the goalposts" because that's absolute BS.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 10:40 PM
  #647
WhiskeySeven
Enlarged Member
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,676
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
What are you talking about? You have been cut to shreds in this thread dude. I haven't been unfair with you at all. You just don't have a leg to stand on here. And 417's argument that 'cap space doesn't matter' is without logic as well.

We argued that PK would raise his value and that we'd pay more in the long run. That's exactly what's happened here. The best that can be said about this mess is that our star player didn't demand a trade during his holdout.

Here's the bottom line: Neither of you have a viable argument for MB having made this move. You keep clinging to this argument that it's "an opinion" but your opinion is so poorly supported that it's indefensible.
Especially interesting as Bergevin gave Desharnais a much, much bigger deal despite him having played LESS NHL GAMES than PK Subban and playing a position we were overloaded with and [all the other DD flaws].

I think any time someone tries to defend Bergevin we should just bring up the DD and Briere signings. At best Bergevin messed up a buncha times, at worst he's an arrogant, stubborn (extending the absolutely useless Drewiskie) Francophile who's going to waste another few years of our core players' primes.

WhiskeySeven is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 10:50 PM
  #648
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,169
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Especially interesting as Bergevin gave Desharnais a much, much bigger deal despite him having played LESS NHL GAMES than PK Subban and playing a position we were overloaded with and [all the other DD flaws].

I think any time someone tries to defend Bergevin we should just bring up the DD and Briere signings. At best Bergevin messed up a buncha times, at worst he's an arrogant, stubborn (extending the absolutely useless Drewiskie) Francophile who's going to waste another few years of our core players' primes.
As I pointed out in this post:http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=428

PK actually has more points than DD does... Not by much but when you look at the games played and factor in that Subban is a blueliner...

But I guess that's just moving the goalposts.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 11:09 PM
  #649
UsernameWasTaken
Let's Go Blue Jays!
 
UsernameWasTaken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,610
vCash: 500
I wasn't sure where to post this - but thought I'd ask it here.

...are you guys at all worried that Bergevin's 'hard ball'/'bridge contract' technique, while saving money in the short term, might encourage your higher profile players to be equally aggressive when seeking their next contract?

I guess the reason I was surprised re PK is that he's a player you'd hope will be a franchise d-man - and are you at all worried he'll start negotiating later in way so as to 'pick up' the $ he feels he "lost", if you will, on this bridge contract.

...this is probably outside the scope of this thread - but are you guys anticipating Bergevin will try to hard ball Galchenyuk re a bridge contract?

Topic? I mis-read the thread as being 'should" not "does" bergevin have to sign PK - and said, yes - he should try to re-sign him.

UsernameWasTaken is offline  
Old
07-22-2013, 11:15 PM
  #650
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,169
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
I wasn't sure where to post this - but thought I'd ask it here.

...are you guys at all worried that Bergevin's 'hard ball'/'bridge contract' technique, while saving money in the short term, might encourage your higher profile players to be equally aggressive when seeking their next contract?
Yes.

And we were lucky that Subban didn't ask for a trade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
I guess the reason I was surprised re PK is that he's a player you'd hope will be a franchise d-man - and are you at all worried he'll start negotiating later in way so as to 'pick up' the $ he feels he "lost", if you will, on this bridge contract.

...this is probably outside the scope of this thread - but are you guys anticipating Bergevin will try to hard ball Galchenyuk re a bridge contract?

Topic? I mis-read the thread as being 'should" not "does" bergevin have to sign PK - and said, yes - he should try to re-sign him.
I sincerely hope he learns from the mistakes he made with PK. If Galchenyuk plays well (and that remains to be seen -too early to say) and MB pulls that tough guy act again, we alienate our younger star, pay more in the long run and run the risk of him asking for a trade.

If MB does this again, he should be shot twice and pissed on.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:18 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.