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Arron Asham on Torts and his future

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07-22-2013, 09:06 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Lol. Then maybe you can point me to the post where someone claimed that Torts was 100% at fault and the players deserved none of the blame. You know, like you keep claiming other people have said.
offda posted in this thread and blamed everything on Torts. He wouldn't even give him credit for winning.

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07-22-2013, 10:07 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
offda posted in this thread and blamed everything on Torts. He wouldn't even give him credit for winning.
Well, he might have. He's hated Torts for years.

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07-23-2013, 12:05 AM
  #103
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There has never been a team where someone on the roster has not felt disrespected. Get 20 people together in a pressure cooker environment and some will be unhappy. Just the way it is.

Proof?

Pretty friggin broad and general assumption. Two can play your little game.

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07-23-2013, 03:56 AM
  #104
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He didn't have the best team. How often since then has a team repeated as Cup champs. It has become incredibly hard to do that.
There was little roster turnover from 1994 to 1995 and from 1992 to 1993.

Very little.

The truth is that Neilson, Campbell, Renney and Tortarella never preached or strategized puck pursuit, confronting the puck, and pressing the puck.

Keenan made a science out of it. The guy took three different teams to the SCF in seven years. Three. All three never recovered after he left. The 1995 Hawks being the lone exception.

I love when people try to marginalize Keenan's impact on the 1994 team.

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07-23-2013, 10:25 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by JCrusty View Post
You do put words in people's mouths or you infer a dramatic or altered version of the intended message.
I might misunderstand a message but i ask for a clarification of what the poster meant. In this thread and In others I have been accused of wanting to keep Torts even when I plainly said the opposite.

Everyone here sometimes wrongly infers comments, but I give the opportunity to clarify a position. If someone attempts to clarify a statement and then slightly alters the topic I say so. I understand that that can be irritating to some, but if someone is going to make a statement like Callahan should have stood up to Torts and didn't, it raises obvious questions.

How does the poster know this?

Besides Messier, who do we know that has done this?

Is that part of a captain's job?

We all have opinions based on what we see and hear. We can disagree about how to interpret this data, but when anyone makes a statement that is near impossible to verify, it is fair to ask where it came from.

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07-23-2013, 10:28 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
No it wasn't. Not my first comment at least.

And mark Messier played hockey.

Welcome aboard.
Your snarky comment aside, you seem to be agreeing with me that the only instance of this is Messier, and even a casual fan understands that Messier wielded far more power than Callahan does.

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07-23-2013, 10:30 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Lol. Then maybe you can point me to the post where someone claimed that Torts was 100% at fault and the players deserved none of the blame. You know, like you keep claiming other people have said.
People still use lol?

Weak.

If you can't find multiple posts ripping Torts to shreds.....

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07-23-2013, 10:35 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Proof?

Pretty friggin broad and general assumption. Two can play your little game.
I played college hockwy, minor league baseball, coached hockey, basketball, and baseball and have never been on a team where someone didn't feel they should be getting more playing time. It is human nature.

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07-23-2013, 11:12 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
People still use lol?

Weak.

If you can't find multiple posts ripping Torts to shreds.....
Yeah, guess I'm old school. Is lirl the new one? So much better.

Anyway, you still completely miss the point. I have criticized Torts. So have many others. That isn't the problem. The problem is that you continue to assert that these same fans are absolving the players of all blame. It has been stated repeatedly, in no uncertain terms, that there is more than enough blame to go around.

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07-23-2013, 11:27 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Proof?

Pretty friggin broad and general assumption. Two can play your little game.
I played college hockwy, minor league baseball, coached hockey, basketball, and baseball and have never been on a team where someone didn't feel they should be getting more playing time. It is human nature.

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07-23-2013, 11:32 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Yeah, guess I'm old school. Is lirl the new one? So much better.

Anyway, you still completely miss the point. I have criticized Torts. So have many others. That isn't the problem. The problem is that you continue to assert that these same fans are absolving the players of all blame. It has been stated repeatedly, in no uncertain terms, that there is more than enough blame to go around.
I think only the fringe folks on this board have placed total blame on one thing or another. For me, it comes down to who you place most of the blame on. And I've seen a TON of posters framing their arguments as if Tortorella deserved the lion's share of blame. And thats what I don't agree with.

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07-23-2013, 11:52 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think only the fringe folks on this board have placed total blame on one thing or another. For me, it comes down to who you place most of the blame on. And I've seen a TON of posters framing their arguments as if Tortorella deserved the lion's share of blame. And thats what I don't agree with.
Posters who give the 'lion share' of blame to Tort's are just closet 'total' blamers

Months ago I said the weight Henrik holds with this team was being underestimated. If he thought Torts wasn't the answer going forward how could they deny him ? Henrik holds most of the cards, the Captain may be Cally but the team follows Hank as he comes and goes. We've seen it on the ice two seasons, more actually, but lets just say the past two more than ever. Off the ice its no different.

Seriously, I can't believe this conversation has been going on as long as it has but tis the offseason.

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07-23-2013, 11:57 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Posters who give the 'lion share' of blame to Tort's are just closet 'total' blamers

Months ago I said the weight Henrik holds with this team was being underestimated. If he thought Torts wasn't the answer going forward how could they deny him ? Henrik holds most of the cards, the Captain may be Cally but the team follows Hank as he comes and goes. We've seen it on the ice two seasons, more actually, but lets just say the past two more than ever. Off the ice its no different.

Seriously, I can't believe this conversation has been going on as long as it has but tis the offseason.
Wanna argue about Sylvain Lefebvre instead?

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07-23-2013, 12:11 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think only the fringe folks on this board have placed total blame on one thing or another. For me, it comes down to who you place most of the blame on. And I've seen a TON of posters framing their arguments as if Tortorella deserved the lion's share of blame. And thats what I don't agree with.
That's fair. For what it's worth, I think Torts did a good job up until this last year. I don't completely agree with his methods, but I can't deny that the players fully bought into it in 2011-12. And I can't deny that we had our best year since 97 as a result.

But this year, for whatever reasons, the coach and the players weren't on the same page. The strategies that were employed were no longer as effective. Whether one believes that the strategies themselves were the issue, or that we lacked the right players to execute those strategies (or some combination thereof), is really moot at this point. It wasn't working and something had to change. It's far easier to change the coach than it is the players.

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07-23-2013, 12:13 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Wanna argue about Sylvain Lefebvre instead?
Torts was one of our assistant coaches Syl's first year with the team

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07-23-2013, 12:27 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
That's fair. For what it's worth, I think Torts did a good job up until this last year. I don't completely agree with his methods, but I can't deny that the players fully bought into it in 2011-12. And I can't deny that we had our best year since 97 as a result.

But this year, for whatever reasons, the coach and the players weren't on the same page. The strategies that were employed were no longer as effective. Whether one believes that the strategies themselves were the issue, or that we lacked the right players to execute those strategies (or some combination thereof), is really moot at this point. It wasn't working and something had to change. It's far easier to change the coach than it is the players.
In a nutshell, I think the roster turnover jettisoned a lot of players that were willing to sacrifice a ton to win hockey games, and imported guys that simply don't know how to win and/or weren't willing to make the same types of sacrifice. I like a team thats willing to do whatever it takes, and I think searching for a head coach that can placate whatever type of team this one is, is heading in the wrong direction. Hope Im wrong.

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07-23-2013, 01:31 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Torts was one of our assistant coaches Syl's first year with the team
But can we relate them both to Kevin Bacon somehow?

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07-23-2013, 02:06 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Posters who give the 'lion share' of blame to Tort's are just closet 'total' blamers

Months ago I said the weight Henrik holds with this team was being underestimated. If he thought Torts wasn't the answer going forward how could they deny him ? Henrik holds most of the cards, the Captain may be Cally but the team follows Hank as he comes and goes. We've seen it on the ice two seasons, more actually, but lets just say the past two more than ever. Off the ice its no different.

Seriously, I can't believe this conversation has been going on as long as it has but tis the offseason.
I don't think the weight Lundqvist held was ever in question.

Whether or not he would ever use that weight...

Well we know the answer now. And if Hanks assessment was what I think it was, I agree.

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07-23-2013, 02:16 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
But can we relate them both to Kevin Bacon somehow?
Sylvain Lefebvre was a teammate of Brian Leetch who was a teammate of Tim Sweeney who was a teammate of Cam Neely who was in Dumb and Dumber with Jim Carrey who was in The Truman Show with Laura Linney who was in Mystic River with Kevin Bacon.

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07-23-2013, 02:20 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Sylvain Lefebvre was a teammate of Brian Leetch who was a teammate of Tim Sweeney who was a teammate of Cam Neely who was in Dumb and Dumber with Jim Carrey who was in The Truman Show with Laura Linney who was in Mystic River with Kevin Bacon.
Fantastic.

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07-23-2013, 02:23 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Posters who give the 'lion share' of blame to Tort's are just closet 'total' blamers

Months ago I said the weight Henrik holds with this team was being underestimated. If he thought Torts wasn't the answer going forward how could they deny him ? Henrik holds most of the cards, the Captain may be Cally but the team follows Hank as he comes and goes. We've seen it on the ice two seasons, more actually, but lets just say the past two more than ever. Off the ice its no different.

Seriously, I can't believe this conversation has been going on as long as it has but tis the offseason.
I think you're right. But the reason this continues to be a topic of conversation for me is because I think its ridiculous that a goaltender's feelings towards offense can sway huge decisions within an organization. And its a prime example of how inept Glen Sather's management style is.

I love Lundqvist, but he gets paid to stop pucks. If Ranger management got together, collectively were not happy with the direction of the team, made the change, and then conveyed the type of hockey they'd like to see played, I'd be able to live with that.

But firing a coach because their goaltender wasn't happy with the lack of support? Or because some players complained about being yelled at too much?

Its just not a way forward. Its knee-jerk crap.

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07-23-2013, 02:28 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
But can we relate them both to Kevin Bacon somehow?
You know I can.

Lefebvre coached Milan Hejduk on the 2009-10 Avalanche
Hejduk played on the 2005-06 Avalanche with Ian Laperriere
Ian Laperriere was in This is 40 with Paul Rudd
Paul Rudd was in The 40 Year Old Virgin with Steve Carrell
Steve Carrell was in Crazy, Stupid, Love with Kevin Bacon

Tortorella coached Rick Tocchett on the 1997-98 Coyotes
Rick Tocchet was on the 1995-96 Bruins with Cam Neely
Cam Neely was in Dumb and Dumber with Jeff Daniels
Jeff Daniels was in the Squid and the Whale with Laura Linney
Laura Linney was in Mystic River with Kevin Bacon

edit: damn you, SBOB

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07-23-2013, 02:46 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
You know I can.

Lefebvre coached Milan Hejduk on the 2009-10 Avalanche
Hejduk played on the 2005-06 Avalanche with Ian Laperriere
Ian Laperriere was in This is 40 with Paul Rudd
Paul Rudd was in The 40 Year Old Virgin with Steve Carrell
Steve Carrell was in Crazy, Stupid, Love with Kevin Bacon

Tortorella coached Rick Tocchett on the 1997-98 Coyotes
Rick Tocchet was on the 1995-96 Bruins with Cam Neely
Cam Neely was in Dumb and Dumber with Jeff Daniels
Jeff Daniels was in the Squid and the Whale with Laura Linney
Laura Linney was in Mystic River with Kevin Bacon

edit: damn you, SBOB
Really impressive stuff. Someone get this guy a front office job.

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07-23-2013, 02:48 PM
  #124
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Really impressive stuff. Someone get this guy a front office job.
It's definitely a transferable skill.

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07-23-2013, 03:17 PM
  #125
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I don't think the weight Lundqvist held was ever in question.

Whether or not he would ever use that weight...

Well we know the answer now. And if Hanks assessment was what I think it was, I agree.
I say months ago because you could see that he was not happy and it wasn't about one look at a Dman after a goal is scored like in previous years. You could tell it was the workload and the constant need for him to be almost perfect. That came from not just the inadequate goal totals, the chances were not even close most nights.

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think you're right. But the reason this continues to be a topic of conversation for me is because I think its ridiculous that a goaltender's feelings towards offense can sway huge decisions within an organization. And its a prime example of how inept Glen Sather's management style is.

I love Lundqvist, but he gets paid to stop pucks. If Ranger management got together, collectively were not happy with the direction of the team, made the change, and then conveyed the type of hockey they'd like to see played, I'd be able to live with that.

But firing a coach because their goaltender wasn't happy with the lack of support? Or because some players complained about being yelled at too much?

Its just not a way forward. Its knee-jerk crap.
I agree with the inept management style, but thats all the more reason for me to trust a player like Hank who has seen championships in the last dozen years and decide nows a good time to change. If it were up to the buffoon it would just be business as usual at Kramerica industries, and that's not good enough.

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