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Old
10-30-2006, 03:09 PM
  #26
mikedifr
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Look, this team is struggling right now, not question about it. A move to shake the team up a little might be a good idea. However, there are 4 players on this team IMO that are untouchable, Gagne, Carter, Richards and Pitkanen. If we want to shake it up a little, how about packaging something like Umberger and Ruzkica or one of the other prospects for a good #3-4 dman that is around age 28-30. Someone along the lines of a Mike Van Ryn in Florida who I have heard is rumored to be on the move.

Trading Gagne, regardless of what some thing about him on this board, would be an absolute mistake from a team perspective and a PR perpective. To me that says not only have we given up on this year, but we have given up on the next couple years as well. He is only 25 years old and can still get better. Even with how bad the team has played, he is still on pace for a 40+ goal season.

As I said before, let the young guys take their lumps for half the season. If they have not improved by then, blow it up!!! If they are showing some improvement, take a couple forward prospects like Umberger and Ruzicka as the keys to a package deal and get a good #3 dman and maybe a 3rd liner back in return. (How about Phoenix. Do they have any good dmen available? How about a package for Scatchard and one of their dmen. Just a thought)

We have players like Downie, Potulny and Giroux coming up in the next year or two. I think if the team can improve by mid season, make some moves for guys to bridge the gap between Forsberg/Knuble and the teenagers on this team maybe (if the price is right) we resign Forsberg and Knuble for 2 more years and all the young guys blossom in one year with the two of them as the veterans leading us to the cup. Kinda like when all those guys blossomed at the same time in TB, or Carolina.

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10-30-2006, 03:31 PM
  #27
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mike, I like your thinking. Part of the appeal of prospects is that they can be moved to get pieces that are useful now/in the near term. Stockpiling prospects just for the sake of stockpiling them is useless. As for your trade proposal, I like what Scatchard would bring to the team (a hard nosed, defensively solid, good faceoff guy for the third line), and they seem to have a bit of depth that would allow them to move a dman, perhaps Derek Morris? I never make trade proposals so I'm not sure what it would take to pry those two away, but I think that'd be a good move to make.

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10-30-2006, 03:59 PM
  #28
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Here's another link for those who want to know more:

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/phi061030.html

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10-30-2006, 04:28 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockit View Post
this is why people watch tsn and not sportsnet.


That's true!

Cullimore is clearly the only name that they're "hearing" but it's known that the Hawks want rid of him so of course he'd be a throw-in. No way he'd be the centre piece of a deal for Gagne.

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10-30-2006, 05:10 PM
  #30
mikedifr
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Originally Posted by Stonehands77 View Post
mike, I like your thinking. Part of the appeal of prospects is that they can be moved to get pieces that are useful now/in the near term. Stockpiling prospects just for the sake of stockpiling them is useless. As for your trade proposal, I like what Scatchard would bring to the team (a hard nosed, defensively solid, good faceoff guy for the third line), and they seem to have a bit of depth that would allow them to move a dman, perhaps Derek Morris? I never make trade proposals so I'm not sure what it would take to pry those two away, but I think that'd be a good move to make.
Right, i hate making trade proposals as well and rarely do but I was sitting up last night (little battle with insomnia) and scanning the other team's rosters on TSN to see what we could use on the Flyers. A Sean Avery from LA?? Someone like Scatchard who is a big physical guy, from what I hear he is good in the locker room can play center for us (in Primeau's role) or move to the RW with Richards and pop in 25 goals as he has in the past. Brings some of the grit we need on the bottom two lines. On defense, not sure who they would move but I wouldnt mind packaging a couple prospects as long as it is for players that are between 27-30 and not 32+

All I ask is please please please no Cullimore. He is another pylon! If Holmgren brings him in here, it proves to me that this orgnaziation is just plain old clueless!

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10-30-2006, 05:21 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyMan1990 View Post
Here's another link for those who want to know more:

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/phi061030.html
"Meanwhile, the Blackhawks have offered supposedly the Flyers defenseman Jassen Cullimore for an unconfirmed return."

That unconfirmed return better be Hatcher!

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10-30-2006, 07:39 PM
  #32
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Not a Flyers fan, but Gagne is still young...Richards, Carter, Pik, Umberger, etc...all young guns.

You guys have a good base to start from if your team is considering rebuilding...but why someone would trade Gagne is beyond me.

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10-30-2006, 09:08 PM
  #33
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I've given Gagne a ton of crap on this board of late, but there is no way I want to see him gone. Someone said earlier about him being the perfect bridge between the sophomores and the veterans-that is one of my main reasons for wanting him to stay. I know some people will say that no one is untradeable, but for me, that short list untradeables would be Richards, Pitkanen and yes, Gagne. He has a lot to offer this team, which is why I've been so harsh of late. I want to see him far exceed his expectations, as I truly think he can.

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10-30-2006, 09:11 PM
  #34
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I think Gagne is a good player...but he isnt a great player. If he is going to make 5 million a year...i want him to play like it...and he hasnt. If they can get a true worth while deal for him...id be cool with it...but it would have to be a very good deal.

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10-30-2006, 10:51 PM
  #35
mikedifr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyFlyers1796 View Post
I think Gagne is a good player...but he isnt a great player. If he is going to make 5 million a year...i want him to play like it...and he hasnt. If they can get a true worth while deal for him...id be cool with it...but it would have to be a very good deal.
Um no. I know Jester and I bascially talk to brick walls when we say this over and over and over and over again, but Gagne is paid to score goals and be very good defensively. He is not paid to make pretty plays or to rack up meaningless assists.

He is on pace for 40+ goals, while not playing very well. Just think what he would be doing if the team was playing well?

Unless you are getting a 25 year old 50 goal scoring winger for Gagne, it is not worth trading him.

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10-30-2006, 10:52 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
I've given Gagne a ton of crap on this board of late, but there is no way I want to see him gone. Someone said earlier about him being the perfect bridge between the sophomores and the veterans-that is one of my main reasons for wanting him to stay. I know some people will say that no one is untradeable, but for me, that short list untradeables would be Richards, Pitkanen and yes, Gagne. He has a lot to offer this team, which is why I've been so harsh of late. I want to see him far exceed his expectations, as I truly think he can.
Why does any player have to exceed expectations? Did you ever think your expectations may be too high? Why should he be expected to exceed expectations and no one else should?

Gagne is a streaky goal score and is on pace for 40+ goals, as I expect at this point in the season. Has the rest of his game been 100% there, No, but neither has the rest of the team.

The players not living up to expectations are Richards, Carter, Calder and Umberger.

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10-31-2006, 12:39 AM
  #37
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Horcoff, Torres, Bergeron,Schremp and 1st rd pick
for Gagne and Pitkanen

You guys get some speed,skill,youth, and cap space

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10-31-2006, 12:48 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafters View Post
Horcoff, Torres, Bergeron,Schremp and 1st rd pick
for Gagne and Pitkanen
That's not enough for Pitkanen alone.

If you don't know much about Pitkanen's value, think Phaneuf of the East.

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10-31-2006, 01:05 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafters View Post
Horcoff, Torres, Bergeron,Schremp and 1st rd pick
for Gagne and Pitkanen

You guys get some speed,skill,youth, and cap space
No.

The biggest reason, and it's not necessarily value, is the Flyers need good defensemen. Ridding themselves of their best one (and arguably one of the best in the league) and switching him on the blueline with MA Bergeron is a big downgrade and defeats the purpose of trading at all.

I don't believe Edmonton has the depth on the blueline (on their roster or in prospects) to be a trading partner with the Flyers.

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10-31-2006, 01:06 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Wolf View Post
That's not enough for Pitkanen alone.

If you don't know much about Pitkanen's value, think Phaneuf of the East.
Honestly I am not a big fan of Phanuef...he hits like a truck has a big shot, but from what i have seen so far seems to lack Hockeysense and has to play sheltered minutes...of course he is young and may improve in these areas

Since you do not see the Oilers play much:

Horcoff- two-way center that can outscore/outplay many elite centers(just ask Thornton from last years playoffs),maybe the fastest Oiler,Very good on faceoffs,locked into reasonable 3 yr contract.
Torres- young 25-35 goalscorer, that can change a game with his physical play...His hit on Mikalek in the San Jose series changed the momentum and lead to the Oilers winning the next 4 in that series, also young and cheap.
Bergeron- 10-20 goalscorer from the defence, undersized but makes up for it with strength and speed, has a rocket shot and a cheap contract for the next couple seasons.
Schremp- Oilers top prospect,has 1st line skills and COULD be a future star...

You add 3 young, fast, cheap, talented forwards,downgrade your defense and add a 1st rd pick........there have been rumours about Pitkanens lack of effort....you will not have that problem with the players coming in and increase you forward depth


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10-31-2006, 01:12 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
No.

The biggest reason, and it's not necessarily value, is the Flyers need good defensemen. Ridding themselves of their best one (and arguably one of the best in the league) and switching him on the blueline with MA Bergeron is a big downgrade and defeats the purpose of trading at all.

I don't believe Edmonton has the depth on the blueline (on their roster or in prospects) to be a trading partner with the Flyers.
our Depth on defence is fine,nice mix of youth(Smid,Greene,Bergeron) and vets(Smith,Staios,Tjanqvist) just no true top paring guy like Pitkanen, also have a few nice prospects on defense

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10-31-2006, 02:03 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Rafters View Post
Torres- young 25-35 goalscorer, that can change a game with his physical play...His hit on Mikalek in the San Jose series changed the momentum and lead to the Oilers winning the next 4 in that series, also young and cheap.
Maybe it's a bit premature to be calling Torres a 25-35 goalscorer. Yes he had 27 last year, but correct me if I'm wrong, he was playing on the 4th Line this year before Moreau got hurt. That's not exactly the spot you'd expect a 25-35 goalscorer to be sitting in.

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10-31-2006, 03:07 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafters View Post
our Depth on defence is fine,nice mix of youth(Smid,Greene,Bergeron) and vets(Smith,Staios,Tjanqvist) just no true top paring guy like Pitkanen, also have a few nice prospects on defense
It doesn't matter. Pitkanen is the only thing good about our defense, why would we trade him for a downgrade to Bergeron regardless of all the forwards in the trade? All the good forwards in the world can't make up for the crappiest defense in the league.

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10-31-2006, 03:10 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Rafters View Post
there have been rumours about Pitkanens lack of effort....you will not have that problem with the players coming in and increase you forward depth
What? There has?

Even if such a rumour ever existed, he's a franchise defenseman that you just can't get lucky with any old draft year. He's a special player that is not going anywhere.

Imagine if Calgary had a top 6 of Phaneuf, Hatcher, Rathje, Gauthier, Jones and Meyer. Would Calgary do your trade only for Phaneuf instead of Pitkanen? No ****ing way. So then neither would Philly.

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10-31-2006, 04:54 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Why does any player have to exceed expectations? Did you ever think your expectations may be too high? Why should he be expected to exceed expectations and no one else should?

Gagne is a streaky goal score and is on pace for 40+ goals, as I expect at this point in the season. Has the rest of his game been 100% there, No, but neither has the rest of the team.

The players not living up to expectations are Richards, Carter, Calder and Umberger.
I never said he "had" to exceed expectations, so please don't put words in my mouth. I said I'd like to see him do so, for one simple reason: I think he can. I believe that he is absolutely capable of doing the things the pro-Gagne people on this board say he will, when you strip back all the layers, that's all I'm asking. As for the rest of the team, I agree 100%-especially about Calder.

EDIT: Mike, one question though, as of today, do you think Gagne has been playing like a $5.25 million player? Not the rest of the team, just Gagne.


Last edited by flyersfan97: 10-31-2006 at 05:04 AM.
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10-31-2006, 10:28 AM
  #46
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On HockeyBuzz.com. Holmgren mentioned so much on Versus last night, that he receives calls from other GMs:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=3466

I talked to a GM, not Paul Holmgren, who informed me that many teams are calling the Flyers about Gagne. He said the following, "Many teams know the Flyers, and Mr. Snider is not the kind of guy who will allow the team to stay in last place. So there is a bit of a feeding frenzy to see if someone can steal Gags in a trade that the new regime would make just to put their mark on the team and make a trade for trade's sake. The kind that would shake up a team. Paul Holmgren won't allow that to happen. He is a very calculated GM. He is the opposite of reactionary. It would have to be Christmas before that kind of trade would occur if the Flyers fall off the map. And it won't happen becauae there are too many players. These are the same guys that scored a bunch of goals last year."

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10-31-2006, 10:38 AM
  #47
mikedifr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
I never said he "had" to exceed expectations, so please don't put words in my mouth. I said I'd like to see him do so, for one simple reason: I think he can. I believe that he is absolutely capable of doing the things the pro-Gagne people on this board say he will, when you strip back all the layers, that's all I'm asking. As for the rest of the team, I agree 100%-especially about Calder.

EDIT: Mike, one question though, as of today, do you think Gagne has been playing like a $5.25 million player? Not the rest of the team, just Gagne.
Didnt mean to put words in your mouth, that is just how I interpreted your post.

Please dont think I am trying to dodge your question, bare with me for a minute, I just dont think it is as simple as a yes or no and depends on your definition of a $5.25 million player. (If I had to give a simple answer I would lean towards yes by a hair)

I have not watched 100% of the games this year, but from what I have seen, I am satisfied with Gagne. Can he do better? Im sure he could, but he is the least of my worries and this is why:

Offense:
He is currently on pace for 45 goals, 15 assists and 60 points for the year. Since it is so early in the year it is tough to compare statistics but only 19 players in the league have more goals then him, and 13 of those 19 have 7 or 8. Would we like to see a few more assists? Sure. But he is a goal scorer and his job is to score goals.

Defense:
From what I have seen he has been fine defensively, it is the overall team defense that has been terrible in my mind, not any one player (at forward that is).

The 5.25 million is largely decided by the market value at the time someone is signed. The only players I can think of off the top of my head at around the same salary are Briere and Gomez at this point. He has more goals then both, but less assists. Again, Gagne's job is not to rack up assits it is to score goals. The assists will come when other players start popping in goals, we start getting some lucky bounces, etc.

If I go by what I expect of Gagne, meaning score 40-50 goals, play some good defense, skate hard MOST of the time (no player in the league is perfect 100% of the time), then Yes, I think he is earning his money.

Now, if I go by what some on this board want from him (not to single you out, just the overall complaints I see about him) carry the puck, create his own chances, carry the team on his back, lead us to the promised land etc. then he will never earn his money!!! He has never been, is now, or never will be that type of player. People need to accept that and appreciate what the guy does.

So to summarize, my simple answer would be yes, by a hair, but I will admit as much as the next person that he can play better.

Finally, just to add to that, I kept the team aspect out of it but it makes a difference as well. If he was playing on a team as hot as the Sabres, Thrashers, Penguins etc. his stats would probably look nicer, dont you think??

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10-31-2006, 10:54 AM
  #48
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Absolutely, to answer your last question. I completely understand a lot of what you are saying, and no, I am not one of those players who thinks he needs 'to make his own chances.' That is not who he is. I would, however, like to see some more assists, and although, it may also not be who he is, I'd like (and I think we need him to) to see him take, or at least try to take, this team by the horns. We can talk all we want about Richards and Pitkanen as our future, but first and foremost is Gagne. We've paid him, and given him the years, this organization clearly sees him as a cornerstone of our future-as do I.

As hard as it is for many to believe, I do not dislike Gagne. Do I think he was/is worth his salary, no, I do not. I may be proven wrong over the years of his contract and I am fine with that, in fact, I welcome it--that's one thing I'd certainly love to be wrong about. My biggest problem is reading people who say Richards "sux" and Gagne is perfect. Neither is the case. And PS, also IMO, Simon's defense has been less than stellar-again, the whole team is poor in this department, but if I put Brindy on this team, he still will be a great defensive forward regardless of who else is wearing the same jersey as he is.

Lastly, I'd like to thank you for your respectful reply. Unfortunately, that's one thing I don't see a ton of around here. Enjoy your day--Happy Halloween!!!

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10-31-2006, 10:56 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
On HockeyBuzz.com. Holmgren mentioned so much on Versus last night, that he receives calls from other GMs:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=3466

I talked to a GM, not Paul Holmgren, who informed me that many teams are calling the Flyers about Gagne. He said the following, "Many teams know the Flyers, and Mr. Snider is not the kind of guy who will allow the team to stay in last place. So there is a bit of a feeding frenzy to see if someone can steal Gags in a trade that the new regime would make just to put their mark on the team and make a trade for trade's sake. The kind that would shake up a team. Paul Holmgren won't allow that to happen. He is a very calculated GM. He is the opposite of reactionary. It would have to be Christmas before that kind of trade would occur if the Flyers fall off the map. And it won't happen becauae there are too many players. These are the same guys that scored a bunch of goals last year."
This is good. A team could call trying to steal Gagne and end up with a deal for other players.

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11-01-2006, 10:34 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafters View Post
Horcoff, Torres, Bergeron,Schremp and 1st rd pick
for Gagne and Pitkanen

You guys get some speed,skill,youth, and cap space

I would easily do that. However, we dont need the cap space as much as you think, and we would be giving up speed and youth in Gagne and Pitkanen.

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