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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-22-2013, 11:21 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Couturier signed a 2 years extension under 2M per season... but... BUT WHAT IF HE BECOMES A SELKE CANDIDATE?! WHY DIDN'T THEY GIVE HIM 8 YEARS AT 3.75/4M per season?!!!
1) Norris >> Selke
2) Subban was more likely to win a Norris than Couturier is to ever win a Selke.

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07-22-2013, 11:22 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
1- Yep, those who agree with you. How convenient.

2- LG has been excellent at moving the goal post and not responding to what I brought forward. Let's see if you follow in the same trend...

3- 24 points... including 14 goals in only 37 games! He was becoming the power forward needed with this team... decapitated or not. Andrei Markov had just received two major knee surgeries and received a $5.75M contract per season... what's your point? Are you suggesting that had it not been for the Chara hit, Pacioretty would have signed long term?

4- He stole the starting job from Huet by outperforming him. He lost his job (temporarily I must add) to a goalie who became hot for a stretch and they (rightfully) went with the hot hand. Not because of Price's skills. But again, it doesn't take away what Price had accomplished, I might add. Are you suggesting that Price would have signed long term had Halak flopped?

5- You need to review the definition of "risk" and "might". Those are no certainties, but just like it doesn't guarantee that Subban would for sure slump, it doesn't mean either that he wouldn't have.

6- Oh boy, splitting hair. And what about Subban's issues with his teammates and his maturity? No sign for concern? Definitely is in the real world. Remember though, something you and your buddies struggle with is going back when the negotiations where happening, not in hindsight...

7- How do YOU know that it's the organization forcing him to miss the start of the season and not Subban holding back for the long term deal? Or is it possible that it takes two to tango and both were holding off based on the length of the contract and not the amount, as they both reported in the media? A bit of bias, perhaps?

8- Define enough without using hindsight. You claim loud and clear to whomever wants to buy the kool-aid you're selling that the Habs are building for 2 to 4 years down the road, yet we're talking about a team who finished second in the East this past year. Most reasonable fan was saying that the previous year was bad luck due to injuries, that the Habs were better than what their record showed... and they simply proved it by being somewhat healthy (except in the playoffs).

9- I did not assume anything about Gio and Markov. I even said that even signing Subban for $8M, there was $12M left to sign replacements/other RFAs...

10- Yes, media cameras lie for your convenience Kriss. It's all made up. But my stuff is garbage. I understand now.

11- I've never, ever attacked Subban's work ethic so you bringing this up is irrelevant. I agree with you on that. Nice try though.

12- There you go again blaming the organization for Subban missing the start of the season... smoke screen at best as something tells me that Subban also had something to do with missing the start of the season.

13- As for the "below his true value", let's agree to disagree. We're talking about a RFA with little rights here, not a UFA.

14- Why such low dollars? IF (and that's a big if) he puts out those numbers, he'll get more than $4M I would think... but it may not be $8M. We'll have to see though. But the point is not to try to predict numbers, but rather the FACT that Bergevin instated a way of conducting business with a bridging contract.

15- What do DD and Bouillon, two players who had UFA in their contracts, have to do with Subban? The last I checked, Subban doesn't play center and he can't spend 60 minutes on the ice. Better Bouillon to groom Tinordi than Subban at this point in their career.

16- Again with the speculation of 2-4 years when the team just finished second in the East. Many fans will disagree with you there and I'm one of them. When you make the playoffs and finish that high, you're closer than 2-4 years, at least in my opinion. But see, it's opinions here (yours and mine), not facts. While what I brought up was a fact (saving on the cap when it's at its lowest). Pride aside, do you notice the difference? I hope so anyway.


17- No, you're right Kriss...

I've numbered your post because if I split them up as you did it'll take half the page.

1- No, just not yours.

2- LG responded to everything in your posts, more than once, he just gave up because there's no point with you anymore. I'm getting close to doing the same.

3- 37 games. That's it. 37 freaking games. That's not even half a season. Had he finished the year and continued his scoring, who knows how it would have went down. For one, management might have waited until the season finished before extending him. Second, good chance MaxPac wouldn't have agreed to such a cheap deal. But that's all irrelevant. Point stands, MaxPac was nowhere near where PK was when he signed his extension. He had 37 games to negotiate with. PK had two full seasons + POs.
As for Markov, he was a proven veteran. It has nothing to do with someone coming off his ELC.

4- You have a poor memory. Price was having a pretty decent rookie year but even in it, he was sent down to Hamilton just a couple months before Huet was traded. Didn't he also cry once after a loss just before being sent down?
The kid didn't steal anything, he showed some good potential, but in no way had he earned the #1 spot when we traded Huet.
It doesn't matter if Halak was just a hot hand, Price lost his spot to him. If Halak flopped and Price was mediocre, as he was that year, then no, it would have changed nothing because he hadn't improved his game.
So no, Price was not the solid proven youngster you seem to want to paint.

This is not even debatable. Price and MaxPac were not, at all, where PK was at the end of their ELC. Not at all. Stop trying to argue otherwise, you're only making yourself look worse.

5- There was no reason to believe PK would have slumped. Many believed he wasn't going to. Hindsight shows he didn't. So either some of us are geniuses, or it was pretty obvious. If you're not able to make the difference between where PK was or where MaxPac and Price were, then I'm not surprised you have difficulty understanding this point.

6- No, not a cause for concern. If by immaturity we were talking about a guy that doesn't eat well, doesn't train properly, is late for team meetings or practices, is inconsistent, is out partying, then ya, you can be worried. If it's because he makes certain mistakes in the game or tries to do too much, then that's a lack of experience, not maturity. If it's because he likes to play a style of unpopular music in the dressing room, then who freaking cares.
As for his issues with his teammates, most of it is media garbage. He gets into little shoving matches with teammates in practice because he practices too hard. Big whoop. We don't know what the arguments are about, yet you assume it's an issue, and only on his part. What about Gorges flat out slapping a puck at Prust? I guess we should assume Gorges and Prust have issues too. Arguments between teammates happen every where, in every sport. Most of it is benign.
PK is the first to jump on anybody that does anything dirty to one of his teammates, he's the first to jump in the air and congratulate them for a goal, he's always giving them credit and never bad mouthed anybody. But ya, he's got issues..Sure.

7- How do I know it's the organization?? Because the deal he got is well below his value. Heck, Michael freaking Del Zotto got signed for 2.55M. It's pretty clear to me which side was being less reasonable.

8- You often say ''easy using hindsight'', but at the time we had finished 15th. A big part of our success last year was due to our youngsters improving, two of which were rookies, and the return of Markov. So ya, before the season started, I'm pretty sure most would agree the window to contend was about 3-5 years.
But even today, yes, our window is more likely to be in 2-4 years because it's when our youngsters will be coming into their own a little more, and others like MaxPac and Price will be in their prime, with some veterans like Plekanec and Gorges still effective. For someone that has a blog you sure have a hard time understanding quite a few things.

9- Yes you did. You said Markov and Gionta are coming off the books. If you think they're going to be re-signed then I don't see why you'd mention that..
20ish M left with Gionta, Markov, Emelin, Eller, Diaz, Bouillon, White and Parros to either replace or re-sign. As many others have said, once you get pretty close to the cap with a bunch of roster spots to fill, any extra bit of cash helps.

10- God knows the media doesn't exaggerate crap here in Mtl..

11- Ya, don't you hate those damn trouble makers that have solid work ethics??? Not sure how someone that has issues and is immature can be professional and have a solid work ethic. This probably makes sense in the world where PK at 2.8M is fair value, but not in the real one.

12- Sure, if you're argument is that PK took the decision to not agree to a crap deal therefore he's just as much at fault. But I'm not gonna blame the guy who doesn't want to sign a crap deal.

13- 2.8M for your top #1 Dman that has proven to also be a top 30 Dman in the NHL. That is effectively shutting down tough opponents and that can play well in all three zone. He can skate, hit, stickhandle, shoot, pass, great defensive vision, wins his battles, consistent, strong, and more. Just because he has a RFA next to his name he's worth less than 3M. Michael freaking Del Zotto makes 2.55M but PK is only worth 2.8M to you.
Here's some comparable names, Del Zotto, Spurgeon, Alzner, and Leddy. Ya, you're so right, PK wasn't signed to a deal below value, these guys were on par with him..
And you have a blog....


14- As I previously stated, I can live with the bridge deal. I think it's stupid to make anything black/white. You need to be able to adapt and you have to realize not every player coming up will be the same. Exceptions should be part of the game.
In any event, the real issue here is signing him to a deal that is CLEARLY BELOW HIS VALUE, keeping this dispute till after the start of the season and alienating him from team. (yes it was below value, if you think he's comparable to the names mentioned then you and I have nothing left to discuss) Bergevin handled the situation like a rookie GM.

15- What they have to do with it is that they are much less talented, and a lot less important, yet are extended to deals they really shouldn't have signed. Whether they were set to become UFA is irrelevant, there was no urgency in extending them.
Also, as mentioned by others, DD has less games played than PK, heck, even less point despite being a center playing with our best player or forward (according to your own words) for 2 years. Bouillon and Drewiske have no business playing on the same team. RFA or UFA, there was no need to extend them this early.

16- We played half a season last year, were starting to struggle at the season's end, and benefited from a healthy roster. I agree with you on us not being a bottom place team the year prior, but in the same manner, we're not a top seed team either.
A lot of it falls onto the shoulders of our youngsters, and aside from PK, they're all unproven. A window of 2-4 years is being conservative and safe, which is the route Bergevin seem to take. Heck, he even said so himself. I'm paraphrasing but it was something like ''now is not the time to make the big push'' in regards to getting deadline players or UFAs.

17- Lol..that's so lame.
Do you even remember the setting of this? This was in the POs just a few months ago. MaxPac gave PK a suicide pass down the middle, a pass PK seemingly had no interest in receiving because he knew the Ottawa player was coming, he did a touch pass as soon as he could, had to take the blindside hit, got up and skated to the bench. MaxPac was completely in the wrong. Furthermore, this happens just 2 games after Eller got sent to ER after taking a suicide pass from Diaz. He had every right to be pissed at MaxPac.
But yes Habsterix, this is just PK being immature and having some deep issues with teammates.
I can't believe you thought posting a video of PJ Stock criticizing PK (as he always does) was somehow going to prove your point. It just completely discredited you.


As I said before, your points are garbage. I've ripped them apart more than once and so did LG. Save face and call it quits.


Last edited by Kriss E: 07-23-2013 at 12:38 AM.
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Old
07-22-2013, 11:38 PM
  #653
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Old
07-23-2013, 12:14 AM
  #654
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I've numbered your post because if I split them up as you did it'll take half the page.

1- No, just not yours.

2- LG responded to everything in your posts, more than once, he just gave up because there's no point with you anymore. I'm getting close to doing the same.

3- 37 games. That's it. 37 freaking games. That's not even half a season. Had he finished the year and continued his scoring, who knows how it would have went down. For one, management might have waited until the season finished before extending him. Second, good chance MaxPac wouldn't have agreed to such a cheap deal. But that's all irrelevant. Point stands, MaxPac was nowhere near where PK was when he signed his extension. He had 37 games to negotiate with. PK had two full seasons + POs.
As for Markov, he was a proven veteran. It has nothing to do with someone coming off his ELC.

4- You have a poor memory. Price was having a pretty decent rookie year but even in it, he was sent down to Hamilton just a couple months before Huet was traded. Didn't he also cry once after a loss just before being sent down?
The kid didn't steal anything, he showed some good potential, but in no way had he earned the #1 spot when we traded Huet.
It doesn't matter if Halak was just a hot hand, Price lost his spot to him. If Halak flopped and Price was mediocre, as he was that year, then no, it would have changed nothing because he hadn't improved his game.
So no, Price was not the solid proven youngster you seem to want to paint.

This is not even debatable. Price and MaxPac were not, at all, where PK was at the end of their ELC. Not at all. Stop trying to argue otherwise, you're only making yourself look worse.

5- There was no reason to believe PK would have slumped. Many believed he wasn't going to. Hindsight shows he didn't. So either some of us are geniuses, or it was pretty obvious. If you're not able to make the difference between where PK was or where MaxPac and Price were, then I'm not surprised you have difficulty understanding this point.

6- No, not a cause for concern. If by immaturity we were talking about a guy that doesn't eat well, doesn't train properly, is late for team meetings or practices, is inconsistent, is out partying, then ya, you can be worried. If it's because he makes certain mistakes in the game or tries to do too much, then that's a lack of experience, not maturity. If it's because he likes to play a style of unpopular music in the dressing room, then who freaking cares.
As for his issues with his teammates, most of it is media garbage. He gets into little shoving matches with teammates in practice because he practices too hard. Big whoop. We don't know what the arguments are about, yet you assume it's an issue, and only on his part. What about Gorges flat out slapping a puck at Prust? I guess we should assume Gorges and Prust have issues too. Arguments between teammates happen every where, in every sport. Most of it is benign.
PK is the first to jump on anybody that does anything dirty to one of his teammates, he's the first to jump in the air and congratulate them for a goal, he's always giving them credit and never bad mouthed anybody. But ya, he's got issues..Sure.

7- How do I know it's the organization?? Because the deal he got is well below his value. Heck, Michael freaking Del Zotto got signed for 2.55M. It's pretty clear to me which side was being less reasonable.

8- You often say ''easy using hindsight'', but at the time we had finished 15th. A big part of our success last year was due to our youngsters improving, two of which were rookies, and the return of Markov. So ya, before the season started, I'm pretty sure most would agree the window to contend was about 3-5 years.
But even today, yes, our window is more likely to be in 2-4 years because it's when our youngsters will be coming into their own a little more, and others like MaxPac and Price will be in their prime, with some veterans like Plekanec and Gorges still effective. For someone that has a blog you sure have a hard time understanding quite a few things.

9- Yes you did. You said Markov and Gionta are coming off the books. If you think they're going to be re-signed then I don't see why you'd mention that..
12M left with Gionta, Markov, Emelin, Eller, Diaz, Bouillon, White and Parros to either replace or re-sign. As many others have said, once you get pretty close to the cap with a bunch of roster spots to fill, any extra bit of cash helps.

10- God knows the media doesn't exaggerate crap here in Mtl..

11- Ya, don't you hate those damn trouble makers that have solid work ethics??? Not sure how someone that has issues and is immature can be professional and have a solid work ethic. This probably makes sense in the world where PK at 2.8M is fair value, but not in the real one.

12- Sure, if you're argument is that PK took the decision to not agree to a crap deal therefore he's just as much at fault. But I'm not gonna blame the guy who doesn't want to sign a crap deal.

13- 2.8M for your top #1 Dman that has proven to also be a top 30 Dman in the NHL. That is effectively shutting down tough opponents and that can play well in all three zone. He can skate, hit, stickhandle, shoot, pass, great defensive vision, wins his battles, consistent, strong, and more. Just because he has a RFA next to his name he's worth less than 3M. Michael freaking Del Zotto makes 2.55M but PK is only worth 2.8M to you.
Here's some comparable names, Del Zotto, Spurgeon, Alzner, and Leddy. Ya, you're so right, PK wasn't signed to a deal below value, these guys were on par with him..
And you have a blog....


14- As I previously stated, I can live with the bridge deal. I think it's stupid to make anything black/white. You need to be able to adapt and you have to realize not every player coming up will be the same. Exceptions should be part of the game.
In any event, the real issue here is signing him to a deal that is CLEARLY BELOW HIS VALUE, keeping this dispute till after the start of the season and alienating him from team. (yes it was below value, if you think he's comparable to the names mentioned then you and I have nothing left to discuss) Bergevin handled the situation like a rookie GM.

15- What they have to do with it is that they are much less talented, and a lot less important, yet are extended to deals they really shouldn't have signed. Whether they were set to become UFA is irrelevant, there was no urgency in extending them.
Also, as mentioned by others, DD has less games played than PK, heck, even less point despite being a center playing with our best player or forward (according to your own words) for 2 years. Bouillon and Drewiske have no business playing on the same team. RFA or UFA, there was no need to extend them this early.

16- We played half a season last year, were starting to struggle at the season's end, and benefited from a healthy roster. I agree with you on us not being a bottom place team the year prior, but in the same manner, we're not a top seed team either.
A lot of it falls onto the shoulders of our youngsters, and aside from PK, they're all unproven. A window of 2-4 years is being conservative and safe, which is the route Bergevin seem to take. Heck, he even said so himself. I'm paraphrasing but it was something like ''now is not the time to make the big push'' in regards to getting deadline players or UFAs.

17- Lol..that's so lame.
Do you even remember the setting of this? This was in the POs just a few months ago. MaxPac gave PK a suicide pass down the middle, a pass PK seemingly had no interest in receiving because he knew the Ottawa player was coming, he did a touch pass as soon as he could, had to take the blindside hit, got up and skated to the bench. MaxPac was completely in the wrong. Furthermore, this happens just 2 games after Eller got sent to ER after taking a suicide pass from Diaz. He had every right to be pissed at MaxPac.
But yes Habsterix, this is just PK being immature and having some deep issues with teammates.
I can't believe you thought posting a video of PJ Stock criticizing PK (as he always does) was somehow going to prove your point. It just completely discredited you.


As I said before, your points are garbage. I've ripped them apart more than once and so did LG. Save face and call it quits.
Well said. Nothing to add.

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Old
07-23-2013, 01:06 AM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yes.

And we were lucky that Subban didn't ask for a trade.

I sincerely hope he learns from the mistakes he made with PK. If Galchenyuk plays well (and that remains to be seen -too early to say) and MB pulls that tough guy act again, we alienate our younger star, pay more in the long run and run the risk of him asking for a trade.

If MB does this again, he should be shot twice and pissed on.
i guess it all depends on how the players end up. the hawks have tended towards generosity with the younger players they deem important. they gave leddy 2 yrs/ 2.7m...but if they were to get aggressive - what would they have saved? $300k / yr? does it really matter...and the hawks are publicity obsessed enough they would never stomach a 'sit out'.

hopefully bergevin gets w/ it enough he pays out Galchenyuk ... b/c you run the risk that someone from your conference scrapes together enough cap space they bone you w/ an offer sheet, no?

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07-23-2013, 03:36 AM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
In any event, the real issue here is signing him to a deal that is CLEARLY BELOW HIS VALUE, keeping this dispute till after the start of the season and alienating him from team.
1, teams and players werent allowed to sign deals before the new CBA was agreed on, from then they only had a few days of practice before start of the season... fair deal or not, unless P.K. decided to agree on the first offer he received it was damn clear he would miss part of the season. P.K. and his agent knew that, and by deciding on not accepting the first offer they, as well, alienated him from the team

2. his value NOW is higher, but at the time he was a 30+ pts defenseman who was barely above average defensively.

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07-23-2013, 06:11 AM
  #657
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
2. his value NOW is higher, but at the time he was a 30+ pts defenseman who was barely above average defensively.
I don't know how many players like you described above go on to win the Norris a year later as 23 year olds after having missed training camp and beginning of season.

Either we're talking about a player who took one of the most gigantic leap forward ever, or your description is completely wrong.

Given that many, including me, saw PK as our best player already before his Norris season, I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that your evaluation of Subban was/is dead wrong.

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07-23-2013, 06:30 AM
  #658
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I don't know how many players like you described above go on to win the Norris a year later as 23 year olds after having missed training camp and beginning of season.

Either we're talking about a player who took one of the most gigantic leap forward ever, or your description is completely wrong.

Given that many, including me, saw PK as our best player already before his Norris season, I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that your evaluation of Subban was/is dead wrong.
well, for starters we're talking about a still very young player so YES they can make gigantic leaps... and, his offensive game was good already, he didnt go from 0.5 PPG to a PPG by changing everything, a few tweaks here and there (not going end to end every time he has a chance to, not slapping everytime he's fed a pass on the PP - those two alone change a lot in his overall game even though they're just minor adjustments)... he mostly improved defensively, went from slightly above average to very good...

had you ever played in a highly competitive sport, you'd get that minor adjusments can change EVERYTHING in your competitiveness/productivity.

Just have to look around, difference between top athletes and middle of the pack are splitt seconds, a pound or two, slightly more power, using a different stick or baseball bat, new footwear, having your feet twisted a little more, your hand an inch lower, etc... none of them become top athletes by changing their game completely...

so yeah! again, it is possible...





but hey! guess I'm wrong in my evaluation, from good to Norris calibre within a half season, everyone would have predicted that right ?

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07-23-2013, 06:35 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
well, for starters we're talking about a still very young player so YES they can make gigantic leaps... and, his offensive game was good already, he didnt go from 0.5 PPG to a PPG by changing everything, a few tweaks here and there (not going end to end every time he has a chance to, not slapping everytime he's fed a pass on the PP - those two alone change a lot in his overall game even though they're just minor adjustments)... he mostly improved defensively, went from slightly above average to very good...

had you ever played in a highly competitive sport, you'd get that minor adjusments can change EVERYTHING in your competitiveness/productivity.

Just have to look around, difference between top athletes and middle of the pack are splitt seconds, a pound or two, slightly more power, using a different stick or baseball bat, new footwear, having your feet twisted a little more, your hand an inch lower, etc... none of them become top athletes by changing their game completely...

so yeah! again, it is possible...





but hey! guess I'm wrong in my evaluation, from good to Norris calibre within a half season, everyone would have predicted that right ?
If they were minor changes than it's easy to predict and your description is a gross misrepresentation.

If Gorges makes minor changes to his game he can't reach anywhere near the level Subban has and will. Don't kid yourself.

Either way, the part where you said Subban was a 30+ pts guy who was barely above average defensively was ridiculous. He was playing 2nd most ice time on the team (for dmen) on the PK on 2nd best PK in the league. He was playing big minutes and against top notch opposition. While he was on the ice, the team actually had a positive +/-. We finished last because when he wasn't the team sucked hard. I don't understand how you infer he was barely above average defensively from having watched his 2nd season. I just don't. You were wrong, you are still wrong.

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Old
07-23-2013, 08:24 AM
  #660
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Old
07-23-2013, 08:26 AM
  #661
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i guess it all depends on how the players end up. the hawks have tended towards generosity with the younger players they deem important. they gave leddy 2 yrs/ 2.7m...but if they were to get aggressive - what would they have saved? $300k / yr? does it really matter...and the hawks are publicity obsessed enough they would never stomach a 'sit out'.

hopefully bergevin gets w/ it enough he pays out Galchenyuk ... b/c you run the risk that someone from your conference scrapes together enough cap space they bone you w/ an offer sheet, no?
It all depends on how the player is playing... As an RFA, the team has leverage and it's why RFA's wind up taking fewer dollars than they're worth.

Truth be told my initial thought was that a bridge would make sense as I figured Meehan was pushing for a long contract at 7 mil a year. So I figured... sure, give him a bridge at 4.5 or 5 mil for a couple of years and then pay the 7 mil down the road. It became very clear that the demands were far more reasonable and they were looking in the ballpark of 5 for 25. We should've taken that deal and run. And you bring up a good point, not only were we lucky that PK didn't demand a trade we were lucky there wasn't an offer sheet as well.

As for Galchenyuk, its too early to discuss what he should be offered. As a general statement though, the whole lowballing strategy is a very bad one. At the very least I hope that we've learned from this because it was an error that we don't need repeated again. And yes, we're going to pay through the nose now for making this mistake.

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07-23-2013, 08:58 AM
  #662
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Why can't we all get along....
In the Dark Future of Habs Board...

There is only War.


War. War never changes.

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Old
07-23-2013, 09:12 AM
  #663
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
In the Dark Future of Habs Board...

There is only War.


War. War never changes.
We will have a ceasefire on parade day.

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Old
07-23-2013, 09:18 AM
  #664
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Habsterix,

Have you never had an argument with a coworker?
Yes. Never in public, especially not on national TV.

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I refuse to believe that Habsterix watches games and has opinions of his own. It's just vague typhoid-like wisps of media-generated nothingness.
Solid argument Whiskey. I've lived to see 10 Habs' Stanley Cups. I don't need (or want) the media to make my opinion. The only reason why Stock is in this video is because that's the only youtube that I found with the Subban/Pacioretty incident.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As I said before, your points are garbage. I've ripped them apart more than once and so did LG. Save face and call it quits.
Speaking of garbage, I've skipped quoting the rest of it in your post to avoid hurting the eyes of the people reading it. The blinders that you and LG are wearing, your way of comparing apples and oranges (referring to DD and Bouillon, amongst other things), your mistaking of facts and opinions, your moving the goal posts to better suit your garbage... Are you sure it's not the same account?

Again though, unlike you, even if I strongly disagree with your opinion, I respect it even if/when I feel it's garbage. I do question your ability to see both sides of a medal however but it might come with time. Where there's life, there's hope and I prefer seeing the positive in things instead of being in a constant panic mode.

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Old
07-23-2013, 09:39 AM
  #665
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Yes. Never in public, especially not on national TV.


Solid argument Whiskey. I've lived to see 10 Habs' Stanley Cups. I don't need (or want) the media to make my opinion. The only reason why Stock is in this video is because that's the only youtube that I found with the Subban/Pacioretty incident.


Speaking of garbage, I've skipped quoting the rest of it in your post to avoid hurting the eyes of the people reading it. The blinders that you and LG are wearing, your way of comparing apples and oranges (referring to DD and Bouillon, amongst other things), your mistaking of facts and opinions, your moving the goal posts to better suit your garbage... Are you sure it's not the same account?

Again though, unlike you, even if I strongly disagree with your opinion, I respect it even if/when I feel it's garbage. I do question your ability to see both sides of a medal however but it might come with time. Where there's life, there's hope and I prefer seeing the positive in things instead of being in a constant panic mode.
Please explain how I "moved the goalposts" on you.

I answered everything you've had directly. I haven't ducked anything. I'll post a couple of links where your arguments were dismantled. Please tell me how I was not fair to you here:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=428

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=430

If you can point to something that I've ducked, please tell me and I will be happy to reply. I feel your arguments are very weak sauce, but I want to be fair to them and answer them properly. So if I've missed something, point it out.

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Old
07-23-2013, 09:40 AM
  #666
E = CH²
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Yes. Never in public, especially not on national TV.


Solid argument Whiskey. I've lived to see 10 Habs' Stanley Cups. I don't need (or want) the media to make my opinion. The only reason why Stock is in this video is because that's the only youtube that I found with the Subban/Pacioretty incident.


Speaking of garbage, I've skipped quoting the rest of it in your post to avoid hurting the eyes of the people reading it. The blinders that you and LG are wearing, your way of comparing apples and oranges (referring to DD and Bouillon, amongst other things), your mistaking of facts and opinions, your moving the goal posts to better suit your garbage... Are you sure it's not the same account?

Again though, unlike you, even if I strongly disagree with your opinion, I respect it even if/when I feel it's garbage. I do question your ability to see both sides of a medal however but it might come with time. Where there's life, there's hope and I prefer seeing the positive in things instead of being in a constant panic mode.
The only thing people need to be spared from are your blog entries

EDIT:

So I decided to go check your blog to see if you had written anything more terrible than last time I checked.. and I saw that on the twitter feed on the side :

Quote:
If/when participating on hockey forums, I need to learn to not debate with idiots as they drag you down and beat you up with experience.
I laughed. You are incredible.

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Old
07-23-2013, 10:18 AM
  #667
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Speaking of garbage, I've skipped quoting the rest of it in your post to avoid hurting the eyes of the people reading it. The blinders that you and LG are wearing, your way of comparing apples and oranges (referring to DD and Bouillon, amongst other things), your mistaking of facts and opinions, your moving the goal posts to better suit your garbage... Are you sure it's not the same account?

Again though, unlike you, even if I strongly disagree with your opinion, I respect it even if/when I feel it's garbage. I do question your ability to see both sides of a medal however but it might come with time. Where there's life, there's hope and I prefer seeing the positive in things instead of being in a constant panic mode.
What's that? A hate post in which you say you respect my opinion??
Classic Habsterix.

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Old
07-23-2013, 10:27 AM
  #668
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
1, teams and players werent allowed to sign deals before the new CBA was agreed on, from then they only had a few days of practice before start of the season... fair deal or not, unless P.K. decided to agree on the first offer he received it was damn clear he would miss part of the season. P.K. and his agent knew that, and by deciding on not accepting the first offer they, as well, alienated him from the team

2. his value NOW is higher, but at the time he was a 30+ pts defenseman who was barely above average defensively.
1- They could have agreed on a deal prior to the CBA. They could have been in negotiations despite the CBA, just like teams aren't supposed to talk to players before the deadline. I understand it's harder to negotiate during a lockout as you don't know how some new rules may apply, still, you can have ongoing talks.
The CBA framework arrangement was agreed to on January 6th, the season started the 19th. They had two weeks to figure it out.

2- PK was already a top 30 Dman in the NHL. Spinning it the way you want to, PK was worth a lot more than Del Zotto or Spurgeon.

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Old
07-23-2013, 10:32 AM
  #669
Habsterix*
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What's that? A hate post in which you say you respect my opinion??
Classic Habsterix.
You can disagree all you want. It wasn't a hate post, it was an attempt to show you how you react. If you took it as a hate post, then how were your other posts then?

I've been saying all along that there are pros and cons to both sides and both sides have solid arguments. You disagree with that. That's fine, I'm truly fine with that but I won't agree.

I will however never agree with you and LG that there is no solid argument(s) for Bergevin's decision in this case. Why? Because it isn't true, no matter if you two get blue in the face debating. For that reason and that reason alone, as I won't change your opinion (not that I was trying to) and you won't change mine, I will stop debating this. At some point, someone has to take the high road.

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Old
07-23-2013, 10:41 AM
  #670
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
You can disagree all you want. It wasn't a hate post, it was an attempt to show you how you react. If you took it as a hate post, then how were your other posts then?

I've been saying all along that there are pros and cons to both sides and both sides have solid arguments. You disagree with that. That's fine, I'm truly fine with that but I won't agree.

I will however never agree with you and LG that there is no solid argument(s) for Bergevin's decision in this case. Why? Because it isn't true, no matter if you two get blue in the face debating. For that reason and that reason alone, as I won't change your opinion (not that I was trying to) and you won't change mine, I will stop debating this. At some point, someone has to take the high road.
There are pros and cons to pretty much everything. Lemme rob a bank, pros, you'll have more money. Does this mean you should do it? Does it make it smart? No.

The point here isn't that there aren't pros to the bridge deal, I just think they're not worth it and I've explained why. I also think the pros to a longer cheap deal far outweighs the ones of a bridge deal.
The part where I see no pros is offering such a cheap bridge deal that you're forcing your star Dman to sit out the start of the year and alienate him from the team. That was completely stupid and there are no pros. This was a rookie GM move.

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Old
07-23-2013, 11:31 AM
  #671
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It's always funny to see how people go out of their way to discredit or talk down on PK. At the end of the day, it has to be a race issue because even tho he won the Norris, you keep hearing the '' I like PK but... ''

Lol one guy even said that he was a 30+ point player average defensively

And the Flyers just gave 20 millions to Mark Streit

You guys just cannot be dumb like that...

My conclusion is that it's a race issues

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Old
07-23-2013, 11:41 AM
  #672
Dr Gonzo
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I will stop debating this. At some point, someone has to take the high road.
As if that option even exists anymore. That would have been 10 pages ago. At this point everyone is just dragging themselves in the mud.

There is no moral superiority to be had here, despite several attempts .

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Old
07-23-2013, 11:51 AM
  #673
417
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There are pros and cons to pretty much everything. Lemme rob a bank, pros, you'll have more money. Does this mean you should do it? Does it make it smart? No.

The point here isn't that there aren't pros to the bridge deal, I just think they're not worth it and I've explained why. I also think the pros to a longer cheap deal far outweighs the ones of a bridge deal.
The part where I see no pros is offering such a cheap bridge deal that you're forcing your star Dman to sit out the start of the year and alienate him from the team. That was completely stupid and there are no pros. This was a rookie GM move.
Come on Kriss E...even if you don't agree with it.

That statement is not true

Edit - Sorry, I misread that...carry on. One quick note though, he didn't force PK to sit out.

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Old
07-23-2013, 11:57 AM
  #674
uiCk
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Come on Kriss E...even if you don't agree with it.

That statement is not true

Edit - Sorry, I misread that...carry on. One quick note though, he didn't force PK to sit out.
Same way Bettman didn't force a lock out with his initial offer?

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Old
07-23-2013, 12:04 PM
  #675
Forsead
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I don't know how many players like you described above go on to win the Norris a year later as 23 year olds after having missed training camp and beginning of season.

Either we're talking about a player who took one of the most gigantic leap forward ever, or your description is completely wrong.


Given that many, including me, saw PK as our best player already before his Norris season, I think it's a pretty safe bet to say that your evaluation of Subban was/is dead wrong.
Just recently there have been similar situations with Subban, Karlsson, Doughty, Letang and Mike Green. Subban was still a very good player, but the change in production is the main reason for the Norris.

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