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Habs draft Jacob De La Rose with the 34th overall pick (info in OP)

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Old
07-23-2013, 12:41 PM
  #401
Simonster
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
You better kiss him goodbye, he ain't playing in sweden after this season.

It's just an ******* move on the part of Salo. The kid has the right to play wherever the hell he wants. If he's even willing to let money on the table to come to Canada, it means he probably has enough of the way he and the other young players are treated in Swedish leagues - like complete sacks of **** to be more explicit.

After following Collberg last season and the way he was treated, I wish all of your promising prospects realize they can't develop in this bs league and come to America to learn and play a North-American game on smaller rinks.
I'm sorry, but you can't judge an entire league by the story of one player in one team. And the rest of your post is just an excellent example of claiming rights where you have none. Furthermore, if you truly believe JDLR is being treated like a sack of ****, you are utterly misinformed.

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07-23-2013, 12:44 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Simonster View Post
I said he joined Leksand at 15 years old, but as I also described we do have youth teams all the way to ~age 6. JDLR started playing in our U-16 and U-18 teams at that point. His first senior contract was signed before last season and it is a 2-year deal.




The point is he isn't your player yet. On some people here it sounds like you believe that Leksand is obligated to act as to make JDLR as good a player as possible for when the Habs decide to bring him over. He won't be put on a 1st or 2nd line to improve for you, he will be put there if he earns it and it is quite unlikely. I understand that you wish that things are maximised for his development, but you can't demand it and you do not have a case if it doesn't happen.

Leksand's business is winning hockey games in Sweden and using our players as we see fit to achieve this. That include JDLR being everywhere from 1st line to outside the team depending on how he performs. Leksand's business is not developing prospects for the NHL. A lot of Swedish hockey fans are not happy with the deal the Swedish Hockey Association has with the NHL where you pretty much can snatch whoever whenever for a relatively small sum as it is undermining the ambition for SHL and its teams to be internationally competitive and attractive.

I guess the economic side of things also do play a small role in this. The deal between Sweden and NHL is that the clubs a player has represented the last four years are getting payed a quarter of the total sum per season he represented them. If JDLR stays one more year with us we will get 4/4 if this money but if he left now we'd only get 3/4 as he has only been here for three seasons to this date. This is only a minor reason though I'd say and definitely not at the core of the issue.
Rare is it when we receive new posters who are calm and rational on this board.

Welcome.

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07-23-2013, 12:49 PM
  #403
Son Oncle Jerry
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Originally Posted by Simonster View Post
I'm sorry, but you can't judge an entire league by the story of one player in one team. And the rest of your post is just an excellent example of claiming rights where you have none. Furthermore, if you truly believe JDLR is being treated like a sack of ****, you are utterly misinformed.
Yeah, I'm sure they'll give him TONS of ice time and invest in his development when the kid has stated repeatedly he can't wait to get the hell out of there.

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07-23-2013, 12:51 PM
  #404
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The fact that NHL-teams can snatch players who are under contract without buy-out clauses for a low standardised price is bad enough (like Michael Raffl's move from Leksand to Flyers earlier this summer). When we start to surrender players under contract to junior leagues without getting to name a price, well that would be the day we might as well stop using contracts altogether and just let players represent the team they feel like from day to day. The SHL is not a North American minor league.

In Sweden, teams are clubs, not franchises. There is no such lottery event like the NHL-draft that randomly decides what team a player ends up in. Instead, all clubs have their own junior teams all the way down to about age 6 and players are brought up in this system so we have a lot of local talent representing their respective team. Jacob de la Rose has been in Leksand since age 15 and Filip Forsberg for example has represented Leksand his whole life. Naturally, it is not in the interrest of the club to spend time and money on a player (including that spent on the majority that don't make it to a pro level), if when he finally reaches age and skill enough to contribute to the club we have to release him to CHL for an unsignificant sum of money just because "it's better for the Montreal Canadiens". We couldn't care less about the Montreal Canadiens (no offense).
I understand and agree with your perspective, and I have to add that many Canadians are envious of your national hockey system--mainly that Sweden is fortunate to even have one.

I'm sure that you're aware Canada does not even have an exclusively Canadian national professional league of its own, so some of us are not entirely tickled pink about the NHL either, which, after all, is a largely foreign owned and controlled business from our perspective as well.

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07-23-2013, 12:53 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by boynickname View Post
Only because the Canadiens made the suggestion...he also stated he has no problem playing in Sweden.

The good news is everyone wants Jacob De La Rose
I am starting to think we have a steal of a 2nd round pick
Its pretty awesome that there's all this fuss over him. Whenever you got a kid making the national WJC team (one of the best in the world) at 17, you know he's gotta have something. Even if he got there because of injuries. His offensive skills look decent enough that they can definitely be worked upon. His skating and size will more than make up for any lack of skills.

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07-23-2013, 12:55 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
You better kiss him goodbye, he ain't playing in sweden after this season.

It's just an ******* move on the part of Salo. The kid has the right to play wherever the hell he wants. If he's even willing to let money on the table to come to Canada, it means he probably has enough of the way he and the other young players are treated in Swedish leagues - like complete sacks of **** to be more explicit.

After following Collberg last season and the way he was treated, I wish all of your promising prospects realize they can't develop in this bs league and come to America to learn and play a North-American game on smaller rinks.
No, he doesn't. You can disagree with the system in place all you want, but Leksand hasn't done anything outside of their rights.

The NHL drafts players before they're legal adults with no prior consent from the player himself and retains exclusive rights to that player for the next decade. The player has to spent 10 years providing services to the club and the league before he's allowed to seek his maximum value on the free market. Do you call that "fair", or do you just not question it because "that's the way the NHL does it"?

Besides, we drafted Leksand's player. They didn't ask us to, and surely made no guarantees they would be interested in ending his contract any earlier just because we did. If some team in the KHL drafted Galchenyuk and demanded we turn him over, would you do it? Or would it be more reasonable to want him to finish out his original contract and then make up his mind?

And with regards to your last paragraph, the list of established Swedes who developed staying in Sweden is a lot longer than the list of Swedes who developed in the CHL. So I don't see how you can possibly claim staying there will necessarily be bad for his development.

Quote:
Yeah, I'm sure they'll give him TONS of ice time and invest in his development when the kid has stated repeatedly he can't wait to get the hell out of there.
From the interview Simonster graciously provided:

Quote:
Was it a big disappointment that you won't play for Windsor in the OHL?
- No, absolutely not. It was never that I wanted to leave Leksand because it would be bad there somehow. Montreal wanted me to go over there because it would be best for me. When they presented it, I thought that maybe it would be best for me to go over to try get a feel for the game (over there).
- It has, as I said, never been that I want to leave Leksand and now it'll be Leksand that I'll play for and I think it will be damn good there.
Sure sounds like "wants to get the hell out of there".

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07-23-2013, 01:01 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Yeah, I'm sure they'll give him TONS of ice time and invest in his development when the kid has stated repeatedly he can't wait to get the hell out of there.
Rare to see a poster on here that repeatedly has unintelligent, vitriolic and obtuse
responses, but you are assuredly at the top of the heap.

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07-23-2013, 01:04 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Rare is it when we receive new posters who are calm and rational on this board.

Welcome.
Thanks, it's my pleasure

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Yeah, I'm sure they'll give him TONS of ice time and invest in his development when the kid has stated repeatedly he can't wait to get the hell out of there.
Uhm, he is being kept because Salo and the coaches believe he is needed on the team. It is not super easy to find replacements this late in the off-season and we haven't managed even to replace our other lost players yet. I advise you to read the last 10-15 posts in this thread again and you will see, among other things, what JDLR has stated. It is not quite what you suggest.

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Originally Posted by Timelord View Post
I understand and agree with your perspective, and I have to add that many Canadians are envious of your national hockey system--mainly that Sweden is fortunate to even have one.

I'm sure that you're aware Canada does not even have an exclusively Canadian national professional league of its own, so some of us are not entirely tickled pink about the NHL either, which, after all, is a largely foreign owned and controlled business from our perspective as well.
Makes sense. I have often thought how I'd like to see a genuine Canadian league with promotion/relegation instead of NHL where small Canadian towns can have the dream of being promoted to the top flight. You have the player material to have a system like this that would be the best of its kind in the world. It won't happen though unless somthing really unforeseen occurs. It's a discussion for another thread though I guess.


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07-23-2013, 01:06 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Rare to see a poster on here that repeatedly has unintelligent, vitriolic and obtuse
responses, but you are assuredly at the top of the heap.

WTMIL
I learned something to new today I googled that

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07-23-2013, 01:07 PM
  #410
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Has Grant done any big pieces on JDLR ? If so, would appreciate being directed to where its at, too many posts to go through. Thanks.
He's been too busy talking McCarron.

The main one I remember from him is he felt the average U-18 probably hurt DLR's stock a bit.

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07-23-2013, 01:10 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Rare to see a poster on here that repeatedly has unintelligent, vitriolic and obtuse
responses, but you are assuredly at the top of the heap.

WTMIL
Whatever you say. Leksand wasn't this kid's first pick. What the hell do you people expect him to say? That he's disappointed? He's got a year to spend year. Fortunately, he's more reasonable than both Salo and Rychel, and doesn't get in their little war. That being said, his plan was coming to Windsor, and next season, first thing he'll do is, wait for it, get the hell out of Leksand to come play in the OHL.

There are no winners in this situation. Salo is just as bad as Rychel. He's not thinking in the interests of the kid. It's ridiculous for him to even suggest he is. He knows that DLR is going to Windsor, no matter what happens this year. So to be naive enough to think he'll invest on his long-term developement is just ridiculous.

As for being unintelligent, and "at the top of the heap", I couldn't care less about what a guy who only has hockey in life thinks about me.

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07-23-2013, 01:16 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
No, he doesn't. You can disagree with the system in place all you want, but Leksand hasn't done anything outside of their rights.

The NHL drafts players before they're legal adults with no prior consent from the player himself and retains exclusive rights to that player for the next decade. The player has to spent 10 years providing services to the club and the league before he's allowed to seek his maximum value on the free market. Do you call that "fair", or do you just not question it because "that's the way the NHL does it"?

Besides, we drafted Leksand's player. They didn't ask us to, and surely made no guarantees they would be interested in ending his contract any earlier just because we did. If some team in the KHL drafted Galchenyuk and demanded we turn him over, would you do it? Or would it be more reasonable to want him to finish out his original contract and then make up his mind?

And with regards to your last paragraph, the list of established Swedes who developed staying in Sweden is a lot longer than the list of Swedes who developed in the CHL. So I don't see how you can possibly claim staying there will necessarily be bad for his development.



From the interview Simonster graciously provided:



Sure sounds like "wants to get the hell out of there".
He had barely been drafted, that it was highly speculated he wanted to go to Windsor. So once again, I don't know how true his quote is... And just because he's not dumb like Kovalev of Sergei Kostitsyn, and say what he genuinely thinks to the first reporter who comes at him, doesn't make him any happier about this.

As for the Habs being the ones who wanted him to come to Windsor, well it's even worst. It means Timmins and his group, in their evaluations, judged it would be critical for his development to come here as soon as this, even enough to ask Salo to release him from his contract.

I don't know how anybody can be happy about the outcome of this situation, and how anybody can bash on Rychel for wanting a good player, and say it's a win-win situation for the Habs and the prospect himself.

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07-23-2013, 01:16 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Simonster View Post
I'm sorry, but you can't judge an entire league by the story of one player in one team. And the rest of your post is just an excellent example of claiming rights where you have none. Furthermore, if you truly believe JDLR is being treated like a sack of ****, you are utterly misinformed.
Welcome aboard. Very informative first posts, and hard to disagree with unless you're....awww forget it. :-)

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07-23-2013, 01:18 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Simonster View Post
The point is he isn't your player yet. On some people here it sounds like you believe that Leksand is obligated to act as to make JDLR as good a player as possible for when the Habs decide to bring him over. He won't be put on a 1st or 2nd line to improve for you, he will be put there if he earns it and it is quite unlikely. I understand that you wish that things are maximised for his development, but you can't demand it and you do not have a case if it doesn't happen.

Leksand's business is winning hockey games in Sweden and using our players as we see fit to achieve this. That include JDLR being everywhere from 1st line to outside the team depending on how he performs. Leksand's business is not developing prospects for the NHL. A lot of Swedish hockey fans are not happy with the deal the Swedish Hockey Association has with the NHL where you pretty much can snatch whoever whenever for a relatively small sum as it is undermining the ambition for SHL and its teams to be internationally competitive and attractive.

I guess the economic side of things also do play a small role in this. The deal between Sweden and NHL is that the clubs a player has represented the last four years are getting payed a quarter of the total sum per season he represented them. If JDLR stays one more year with us we will get 4/4 if this money but if he left now we'd only get 3/4 as he has only been here for three seasons to this date. This is only a minor reason though I'd say and definitely not at the core of the issue.
My point is though, wouldn't it be strategically better to make the Habs happy as it would mean they get the player beyond the upcoming season? Of course this is assuming he is good enough to keep on the roster spot.

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07-23-2013, 01:21 PM
  #415
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Welcome aboard. Very informative first posts, and hard to disagree with unless you're....awww forget it. :-)
Unless you're an idiot? Nice passive-aggressive answer here. Whatever floats your boat. The fact I respect you as a hockey scout and still do doesn't make you any more intelligent/clever than anyone here.

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07-23-2013, 01:21 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
He had barely been drafted, that it was highly speculated he wanted to go to Windsor. So once again, I don't know how true his quote is... And just because he's not dumb like Kovalev of Sergei Kostitsyn, and say what he genuinely thinks to the first reporter who comes at him, doesn't make him any happier about this.

As for the Habs being the ones who wanted him to come to Windsor, well it's even worst. It means Timmins and his group, in their evaluations, judged it would be critical for his development to come here as soon as this, even enough to ask Salo to release him from his contract.

I don't know how anybody can be happy about the outcome of this situation, and how anybody can bash on Rychel for wanting a good player, and say it's a win-win situation for the Habs and the prospect himself.
Quote:
What have the Montreal Canadians said about all this whole thing?
- I have spoken with Christer Rockström, Montreal's Swedish scout, and he too believes it will be very good to play in Leksand for me.
Don't think Rockström would have said that if it was so critical he came to Windsor.

I'm happy about this situation, whatever the outcome would have been, so I must be crazy...

EDIT: I suggest you google WTMIL before responding to Grant again.

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07-23-2013, 01:24 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Whatever you say. Leksand wasn't this kid's first pick. What the hell do you people expect him to say? That he's disappointed? He's got a year to spend year. Fortunately, he's more reasonable than both Salo and Rychel, and doesn't get in their little war. That being said, his plan was coming to Windsor, and next season, first thing he'll do is, wait for it, get the hell out of Leksand to come play in the OHL.

There are no winners in this situation. Salo is just as bad as Rychel. He's not thinking in the interests of the kid. It's ridiculous for him to even suggest he is. He knows that DLR is going to Windsor, no matter what happens this year. So to be naive enough to think he'll invest on his long-term developement is just ridiculous.

As for being unintelligent, and "at the top of the heap", I couldn't care less about what a guy who only has hockey in life thinks about me.
Have you actually read any of the kids interviews? It was the Habs that where advising him to consider going to Windsor, and Rychel just wants a shiny new toy to play with (and Salo wants to keep his asset). DLR doesn't really care one way or the other, he just wants to do what is best for his development. If he gets the ice-time and opportunities in Sweden, who cares. He's going into things with the right mentality in that he wants to earn his ice time.

The Habs concern is that he'll be mismanaged, underutilized and moved around, especially after what happened with Collberg last season. If DLR gets his ice-time, then the SHL is a great place to develop. He'll come over with better defensive acumen and be better prepared for the pro game, which can help him slowly develop his offensive game (a la Eller).

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07-23-2013, 01:24 PM
  #418
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Bozo - why are you ALWAYS so full of hate? This guy makes a very intelligent first post offering the opinion of folks in Sweden on the DLR situation, and you, as you often choose to do, spew vitriol at him.... right from the beginning.

Being an internet bully gets you absolutely nowhere in life. You come across as a hate filled man (or more specifically boy)..that's not good for anybody.

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07-23-2013, 01:26 PM
  #419
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Don't think Rockström would have said that if it was so critical he came to Windsor.

I'm happy about this situation, whatever the outcome would have been, so I must be crazy...

EDIT: I suggest you google WTMIL before responding to Grant again.
The kid said the Habs tried to have him join Windsor. That implies that Timmins thought it might be important enough for his development to ask Salo to release him...

Then, he says that in the end, Rockstrom was ok with the outcome, that Leksand will be good for him...

I might be posting "unintelligent" stuff, but it just isn't consistent enough for me to put any credit in the veracity of what he's saying.

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07-23-2013, 01:27 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
He knows that DLR is going to Windsor, no matter what happens this year. So to be naive enough to think he'll invest on his long-term developement is just ridiculous.
Leksand was just promoted to the top league this year. Salo's only interest is keeping us there and not fall back down to the second league where we have struggled for seven seasons. Long-term isn't what's important for a team predicted to be in the lower regions of the standings, surviving the very next season without being relegated is. If he and the coaches believe JDLR is going to be useful, then JDLR will get the chance to prove that. Even if Salo is holding a grudge (which I'm fairly certain he isn't), he wouldn't let that get in the way of Leksand's best interests.

You are only making guesses. Bad ones.

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07-23-2013, 01:28 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
He had barely been drafted, that it was highly speculated he wanted to go to Windsor. So once again, I don't know how true his quote is... And just because he's not dumb like Kovalev of Sergei Kostitsyn, and say what he genuinely thinks to the first reporter who comes at him, doesn't make him any happier about this.
The fact that DLR has said he would be happy to go to Windsor, and then said that he would be happy to stay in Sweden, suggests to me that he is not nearly as crazed to escape the shackles of his birth country as you are implying, but rather is being diplomatic about the whole situation. I believe he wants to go where the Habs want him to go, which was Windsor, but just because he isn't doesn't mean he's going to be in hell by having to stay in Sweden another year.

Quote:
As for the Habs being the ones who wanted him to come to Windsor, well it's even worst. It means Timmins and his group, in their evaluations, judged it would be critical for his development to come here as soon as this, even enough to ask Salo to release him from his contract.
A better option doesn't mean the alternative is the worst option, necessarily. Yes, the rule of thumb with overseas prospects is that closer is better - you can see the kid more often, keep tabs on him better, maybe get in the coach's ear about his situation, etc. Nobody would dispute that. However, there's no reason to believe Leksand is going to be catastrophically worse by comparison.

Look at Alexander Avtsin who came over to North America to play in the AHL instead of developing in Russia - nobody would argue it was the best thing for his development now. Who knows if he would've turned out differently if he stayed in Russia for a couple more years? There's just no way to say for sure.

Maybe in 5 years we can say "gee, maybe it would have been better for DLR to play in Windsor", but even then, what can you do? Nobody can force Salo to turn him over to us and nobody should blame Salo for acting in the best interest of his team and not the Montreal Canadiens. That's the eternal risk with drafting Europeans - you have to give up a measure of control.

Quote:
I don't know how anybody can be happy about the outcome of this situation, and how anybody can bash on Rychel for wanting a good player, and say it's a win-win situation for the Habs and the prospect himself.
Your logic seems to be "if it's not a win, it's a loss". I don't think the situation is nearly as black and white as that.

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07-23-2013, 01:31 PM
  #422
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Bozo - why are you ALWAYS so full of hate? This guy makes a very intelligent first post offering the opinion of folks in Sweden on the DLR situation, and you, as you often choose to do, spew vitriol at him.... right from the beginning.

Being an internet bully gets you absolutely nowhere in life. You come across as a hate filled man (or more specifically boy)..that's not good for anybody.
I don't need to be an internet bully to get me anywhere in life... don't worry. My work and accomplishments already got me in a not so bad spot.

I came out as aggressive for the very reason that year after year, we see posters from Sweden come and justify pretty much EVERYTHING that happens there, whether it be Collberg playing 6 minutes per game, or Salo not willing to give the kid what he reportedly wanted. They're biased, as am I... The difference is that I don't feed crap to the masses and try to make them believe it's chocolate cake. This outcome is not what the Habs initially wanted, not what the kid reportedly initially wanted, and I fail to see how it's good for his development as a hockey player who plans to play for the Habs.

As for calling me a boy... Deforming other people's usernames and calling them names by the same occasion sure isn't the most mature thing to do if you want to throw rocks at people.

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07-23-2013, 01:45 PM
  #423
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Well - since some folks want to try to "speak for the Habs".... okay..just one person.... how about getting it from the horse's mouth?

Timmins has absolutely no issue with DLR staying in Sweden - as he noted to me - he will play in several U-19 and U-20 tournaments in addition to playing for Leksand. At least four of them. TT wasn't upset that Collberg stayed in Sweden last year, and he's not upset that DLR did this season. Sweden is very good at developing players. At the end of the day..Timmins may actually see more of DLR in the various tournaments he'll participate in than he would have in Windsor. He'll be at the Lake Placid and WJC's for sure, and probably the other two events as well since many of the most talented draft eligible players (like Nylander) will participate.

It wouldn't surprise me to see DLR wearing a letter at the WJC's either, having been captain of their last U-18 team. I'm sure there was some pressure from the Swedish federation for Salo to keep him in Sweden for another year.

I was disappointed by Rychel's comments, don't think he should have stirred the pot. I do not blame Salo for wanting to keep DLR on his team..he's under contract, and Salo probably thinks he can help the team THIS season. He's got the skating, size and defensive acumen to play in the SHL, use high end training facilities, compete in a stronger league than the OHL, and also play several times for his country.

There was no losing proposition for DLR this season.

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07-23-2013, 01:47 PM
  #424
aresknights
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Thanks for the intelligently thought out posts Simonster!

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07-23-2013, 02:01 PM
  #425
Son Oncle Jerry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Well - since some folks want to try to "speak for the Habs".... okay..just one person.... how about getting it from the horse's mouth?

Timmins has absolutely no issue with DLR staying in Sweden - as he noted to me - he will play in several U-19 and U-20 tournaments in addition to playing for Leksand. At least four of them. TT wasn't upset that Collberg stayed in Sweden last year, and he's not upset that DLR did this season. Sweden is very good at developing players. At the end of the day..Timmins may actually see more of DLR in the various tournaments he'll participate in than he would have in Windsor. He'll be at the Lake Placid and WJC's for sure, and probably the other two events as well since many of the most talented draft eligible players (like Nylander) will participate.

It wouldn't surprise me to see DLR wearing a letter at the WJC's either, having been captain of their last U-18 team. I'm sure there was some pressure from the Swedish federation for Salo to keep him in Sweden for another year.

I was disappointed by Rychel's comments, don't think he should have stirred the pot. I do not blame Salo for wanting to keep DLR on his team..he's under contract, and Salo probably thinks he can help the team THIS season. He's got the skating, size and defensive acumen to play in the SHL, use high end training facilities, compete in a stronger league than the OHL, and also play several times for his country.

There was no losing proposition for DLR this season.
See: This post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonster View Post
Someone's got to be lying about something somewhere, because from what Simonster reported, it sure sounds like De La Rose said that it's Montreal who told him Windsor was the best way to go.

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