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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-23-2013, 05:27 PM
  #726
Pat Paeplow
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Originally Posted by E = CH View Post
This, a million times this.

If Bergevin can't know basic things about his own team he is not fit to be the GM.

But MB is well aware that Subban is his best player... I have to believe that.
I guess I misspoke somewhat. Obviously PK's talent is undeniable and I'm sure Bergevin recognizes it. What I meant was, maybe Bergevin feels PK is overvalued by other GM's. If Tinordi and Beaulieu both step up and earn themselves a place at the table, I don't know, maybe PK's worth more on the block. If he wins another Norris other GM's may get irrational. If the kids don't step up, just the bite the bullet and give him his top of the market contract.

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07-23-2013, 05:28 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by E = CH View Post
You compared his current deal with a 5 year 25M deal.

If that had happened, then we would be paying 2.25M more than the 2.75M cap hit he has. So we wouldn't have gone after Clowe with the savings cuz there wouldn't have been any.

It appears to be you who do not understand your very own hypothetical situations you make up in your own mind to try and prove points. Just saying...
Wrong...I presented a hypothetical situation where he never wld signed his current deal, thus nothing to compare it with

I wasn't trying to be accurate with current cap space or anything. In this 'hypothetical situation' maybe MB never signs Desharnais/Bouillon...again, I wasn't going for accuracy, was just a 'in a perfect world' type of situation. Even Ryane Clowe was just the first UFA I thought of, cld of been anyone

Hence the term 'hypothetical'

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07-23-2013, 05:29 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by Dopamine Fiend View Post
I guess I misspoke somewhat. Obviously PK's talent is undeniable and I'm sure Bergevin recognizes it. What I meant was, maybe Bergevin feels PK is overvalued by other GM's. If Tinordi and Beaulieu both step up and earn themselves a place at the table, I don't know, maybe PK's worth more on the block. If he wins another Norris other GM's may get irrational. If the kids don't step up, just the bite the bullet and give him his top of the market contract.
It doesn't matter what his value on the block is though. When you have a player with talent like that you hold onto them. We shouldn't even be thinking about dealing this guy. PK's the kind of guy you build with.

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07-23-2013, 05:31 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What are you talking about?

You need cap space to sign players. Shall we never discuss contracts because we don't know how the rest will later be used?

I'm not cap obsessed either. You're turning it into a huge cap thing when I've repeated countless times it wasn't the end of the world. But it's not because it's not the be all end all of things that you have to use the ''who cares'' attitude.

Any space saved helps. Funny you say this but then mention that we saved on the space last year and this up coming one. Then when people mention that the cap will be more important during the competitive years (like to be in the next 2-3-4 years) you go back to ''well give me an example and if you can't, you're wrong'' BS.

It's not even about needing the cap or not, it's about having the flexibility of having a couple extra million there. If we don't use it, then it's pretty irrelevant, but that's using hindsight. But the point stands, any time you can save cash when it's there for the taking, you do it. This is not even debatable. Stop being so hard pressed on making it seem as if cap space is overrated. It is, I agree. But if it's there, you take it.
Would you rather have our current roster with 0M on the cap, or 6M? It's seriously not hard to understand. Stop being stubborn on this issue, you're a better poster.
Mmm... which one is it Kriss? It's important or not important to have cap space in the event you want to use it? Not only are you using hindsight, but your posts are contracting each other. See for yourself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As for the savings, what were they? We had enough cap space last season to have PK signed to a deal doubled his cap hit, and that still applies now. That space we ''saved'' was used for absolutely nothing.
That was actually one of the reason some were saying the deal was a good one, because it would permit Bergevin to get a player around the deadline (he didn't), and then it was because he was going to sign some UFA (he did except not the guy anybody here wanted) but we still have the room.
So what's the point in saving some cash if you don't use it?
Personally, I say that saving that saving 4% in cap next year ($5.5M - $2.875M = $2.625M/$64M cap) is more important than saving 3.5% ($8M - $5.5M = $2.5M/$70M) when the cap goes up and more contracts expire and there is more time to plan around the raise. Must just be me.


Last edited by Habsterix*: 07-23-2013 at 05:37 PM.
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Old
07-23-2013, 05:33 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Boston and Columbus have entirely different line ups. It is completely impossible and unrealistic.
Now the figures thrown around here is PK making 5M next year as opposed to 8M.
Say the roster stays intact, with identical salaries, but with PK making 5M instead of 8M. We currently have 3M free, that would add another 3M in savings, + cap increase.
So very simple question, would you rather have 6M+cap raise or 3M+cap raise?? Very simple question and I ask it because this was actually possible, it's not an unrealistic scenario like switching an entire team.
Well the answer is obvious...again, I'm not an idiot

But that in itself doesn't mean anything in terms of improving your team - which is the only thing that matters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you're trying to convince me that just the simple fact of having free cap space, automatically means you're improved as a team...that's simply not true

Just means you have cap space...

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Old
07-23-2013, 05:36 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It doesn't matter what his value on the block is though. When you have a player with talent like that you hold onto them. We shouldn't even be thinking about dealing this guy. PK's the kind of guy you build with.
I agree with you. I'm just trying to get in Bergevin's head. If he felt exactly this way, it stands to reason he would sign PK right now. The fact that he hasn't leads me to believe that Bergevin believes that PK isn't untouchable.

The only other explanations I can think of are 1. PK's agent is asking for something crazy or 2. Bergevin believes players produce more in contract years. However, option 2 contradicts the Desharnais contract.

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07-23-2013, 05:41 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Well the answer is obvious...again, I'm not an idiot

But that in itself doesn't mean anything in terms of improving your team - which is the only thing that matters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you're trying to convince me that just the simple fact of having free cap space, automatically means you're improved as a team...that's simply not true

Just means you have cap space...
having addntl cap sapce is better... DOESNT mean it will end in a better result, BUT you increase your ODDS. Take a quick logic class on wiki or something so we can stop arguing about this. holy cow, how hard is it to understand that.

It's basic knowledge, you are disregarding ODDS in your favor. It's like if you would go to the casino, and have choice between 2 games, one where your odds of winning are 10%, and one where they are 49%, and you choose the 10% one because odds don't matter only what cards you get.


Last edited by uiCk: 07-23-2013 at 05:48 PM.
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Old
07-23-2013, 05:48 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Dopamine Fiend View Post
I agree with you. I'm just trying to get in Bergevin's head. If he felt exactly this way, it stands to reason he would sign PK right now. The fact that he hasn't leads me to believe that Bergevin believes that PK isn't untouchable.

The only other explanations I can think of are 1. PK's agent is asking for something crazy or 2. Bergevin believes players produce more in contract years. However, option 2 contradicts the Desharnais contract.
Short answer:

I don't know why the hell he didn't just lock him up for 5 for 25. I don't know why he forced 2.8 on him. None of it makes any sense. Esp since we're going to need the cap space in the coming years... not now.

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Old
07-23-2013, 05:50 PM
  #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
having addntl cap sapce is better... DOESNT mean it will end in a better result, BUT you increase your ODDS. Take a quick logic class on wiki or something so we can stop arguing about this. holy cow, how hard is it to understand that.

It's basic knowledge, you are disregarding ODDS in your favor. It's like if you would go to the casino, and have choice between 2 games, one where your odds of winning are 10%, and one where they are 49%, and you choose the 10% one because odds don't matter only what cards you get.
So in the wiki class, does it teach that cap space was also important last year and it will particularly be important when the cap goes down to $64M?

Just curious...

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Old
07-23-2013, 05:54 PM
  #735
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Well the answer is obvious...again, I'm not an idiot

But that in itself doesn't mean anything in terms of improving your team - which is the only thing that matters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you're trying to convince me that just the simple fact of having free cap space, automatically means you're improved as a team...that's simply not true

Just means you have cap space...
No I never said that additional cap=improved team.
I've been clear on this. Hence me saying who you use the cap space on is a whole other debate.
The point was just that having this extra bit of flexibility only helps management. If management is Crap and doesn't use that extra bit of space properly, that's another issue.

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07-23-2013, 05:56 PM
  #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
So in the wiki class, does it teach that cap space was also important last year and it will particularly be important when the cap goes down to $64M?

Just curious...
Yea because MB was itching to go on shopping spree last trade deadline, this off season and next trade deadline. You know, he made it clear that he wanted to compete and go all out and use this much needed cap space PK has braught to us for 1 and 1/2 seasons.

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07-23-2013, 05:59 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Yea because MB was itching to go on shopping spree last trade deadline, this off season and next trade deadline. You know, he made it clear that he wanted to compete and go all out and use this much needed cap space PK has braught to us for 1 and 1/2 seasons.
Mmmm... interesting to say the least.

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07-23-2013, 06:04 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Mmmm... interesting to say the least.
i'm sure it is, must be tough task gauging sarcasm and logic all at once

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07-23-2013, 06:06 PM
  #739
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54% of respondents think that the bridging contract was the right thing. They must all be idiots and have garbage arguments, right?

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07-23-2013, 06:39 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
54% of respondents think that the bridging contract was the right thing. They must all be idiots and have garbage arguments, right?
argumentum ad populum and a strawman all in the same post. I applaud you.

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07-23-2013, 06:43 PM
  #741
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To please the armchairs I think MT should halve Subbans play time to get those numbers down. Then Bergevin can roll over him in negotiations.

It's all about keeping costs down.

Edit:


Last edited by Agnostic: 07-23-2013 at 07:12 PM.
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07-23-2013, 06:49 PM
  #742
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You people need to get over the bridge contract.

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07-23-2013, 06:52 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
having addntl cap sapce is better... DOESNT mean it will end in a better result, BUT you increase your ODDS. Take a quick logic class on wiki or something so we can stop arguing about this. holy cow, how hard is it to understand that.

It's basic knowledge, you are disregarding ODDS in your favor. It's like if you would go to the casino, and have choice between 2 games, one where your odds of winning are 10%, and one where they are 49%, and you choose the 10% one because odds don't matter only what cards you get.
What the hell do casinos have to do with this? I don't know why people keep making analogies to things that don't involve hockey

It doesn't make what you're saying anymore credible

Sorry gotta go...got a 'wiki class', whatever the hell that is

Anyways, i've reached my care limit on this subject...i'll make way for the capologists to do their thing

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07-23-2013, 06:52 PM
  #744
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
You people need to get over the bridge contract.
Worst part is that i'm pretty sure everyone is over it. It's just one of those things people like to argue about endlessly. Someone says something that the other group disagree on and the argument just won't go away.

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07-23-2013, 07:56 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
argumentum ad populum and a strawman all in the same post. I applaud you.
Play nice now, no need to confuse the poor kid

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07-23-2013, 08:05 PM
  #746
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
54% of respondents think that the bridging contract was the right thing. They must all be idiots and have garbage arguments, right?

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07-23-2013, 09:24 PM
  #747
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
argumentum ad populum and a strawman all in the same post. I applaud you.
Not only the same post, but in the same assertion.

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07-23-2013, 09:35 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Mmm... which one is it Kriss? It's important or not important to have cap space in the event you want to use it? Not only are you using hindsight, but your posts are contracting each other. See for yourself...


Personally, I say that saving that saving 4% in cap next year ($5.5M - $2.875M = $2.625M/$64M cap) is more important than saving 3.5% ($8M - $5.5M = $2.5M/$70M) when the cap goes up and more contracts expire and there is more time to plan around the raise. Must just be me.
I am frankly just baffled.

We have a full roster, and still over $3M to go on the cap. Any further moves are most likely going to be of the depth variety. There's no high priced guy left who could be ours if only we had enough cap space. If we're still $3M under when the season starts, then by February you can basically trade for just about any high priced guy in the league, even for just picks/prospects, and stay under the cap. WE DO NOT NEED THE CAP SPACE THIS YEAR. I would rather have the cap space for the three subsequent years where we might need it vs. this year where we do not.

I'll also speculate that the immediate change to the cap is unlikely to be +6M in the first year after the lockout, the NHL will do OK but I cannot imagine they can somehow whip up enough revenues to get an extra $6M per team right away. I think we'll do well to see the cap go up by $3M for 2014-15. Raises to Eller and Emelin should take most of that. It might well be 2014 when we really need the cap space.

And I still don't understand the argument that we have contracts coming off the books so we must surely be OK. Five names:

Subban, Eller, Emelin, Markov, Gionta. 2013-14 cap hit = $17M combined.
Well, come 2014-15 let's give PK $7M, Eller $3.5 and Emelin $3. That's 13.5M, which is probably an underestimate but fine. That leaves us with $3.5M left over plus $3M extra cap, but no Markov or Gionta and you cannot replace those guys for free.

With a not-quite good enough roster, go get a top-3 defense and a scoring winger for $6.5M total, assuming we don't spend the majority of that "savings" to sign Markov at a salary a little less than what he's making now.

The Subban big money deal next offseason is a fait accompli. But claiming a pressing need for the savings this one season doesn't compute.

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07-23-2013, 09:41 PM
  #749
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
argumentum ad populum and a strawman all in the same post. I applaud you.
As the official logical fallacy police, this is no simple feat. (Rate of one per seven words)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Not only the same post, but in the same assertion.
Bonus points.

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07-23-2013, 10:42 PM
  #750
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I believe Marc Bergervin did the right thing. Looking at the numbers, PK Subban hasn't had a year over 38 points, he won the Norris by default. Compared to Drew Doughty, Erik Karlsson and Kris Letang all of whom had 60-70 points season. This year is yet another year to see if PK can prove himself. If he remains one of the top players then yes give him $7 mil, if not then less.

Mind you Karlsson earns $6.5 mil per season and won the Norris with 78 points.
Oh for the love of god. He's won a damn Norris. What more does he have to prove? If that is the mentality of this franchise. It does not bode well for us keeping Subban because he's demanding Letang money and someone will give it to him. Frankly, this "proving himself" notion has gotten ridiculous.

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