HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

OT - Detroit drafting well a myth ??

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-13-2009, 08:28 PM
  #176
Melvin Udall
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=Tom Kostopoulos;14818648]It is a myth and there is a lot of luck involved.
If they thought Zetterberg or Datsyuk would be superstars, they would have drafted them in the first or second round. Anything below those rounds is mainly luck.

Luck?...............Really?

So how is it that 1 team can get so repeatedly "lucky" while none of the other 29 NHL teams can do so (as least repeatedly)?

So, the "LUCKY" Detroit Red Wings drafted - not in the first round...........

Round - 3: Johan Franzen
Round - 2: Jiri Hudler
Round - 7: Henrik Zetterberg
Round - 6: Pavel Datsyuk
Round -10: Tomas Holmstrom
Round - 3: Nicklas Lidstrom
Round - 4: Sergei Fedorov

MANY OF THOSE YEARS THE WINGS HAD NO 1ST ROUND DRAFT CHOICE.

Wouldn't it be great if the Habs could get that "lucky" even once!

Melvin Udall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2009, 08:33 PM
  #177
r0bert8841
Registered User
 
r0bert8841's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 6,600
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to r0bert8841
Quote:
Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Wow, I just notice that this was an old thread. Reading this was pretty funny cuz we all sorta had the same idea last summer....oh how strangely things have shaped up.
Yes it is pretty interesting how things ended up
But anyone want to give an update on the Habs draftees accomplishments this season? to compare.

r0bert8841 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2009, 09:53 PM
  #178
Nedved
Registered User
 
Nedved's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,790
vCash: 500
the bluejays are incredible.

Nedved is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-13-2009, 10:00 PM
  #179
Analyzer*
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Renfrew, ON.
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,999
vCash: 50
[QUOTE=ND Irish;19042787]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kostopoulos View Post
It is a myth and there is a lot of luck involved.
If they thought Zetterberg or Datsyuk would be superstars, they would have drafted them in the first or second round. Anything below those rounds is mainly luck.

Luck?...............Really?

So how is it that 1 team can get so repeatedly "lucky" while none of the other 29 NHL teams can do so (as least repeatedly)?

So, the "LUCKY" Detroit Red Wings drafted - not in the first round...........

Round - 3: Johan Franzen
Round - 2: Jiri Hudler
Round - 7: Henrik Zetterberg
Round - 6: Pavel Datsyuk
Round -10: Tomas Holmstrom
Round - 3: Nicklas Lidstrom
Round - 4: Sergei Fedorov

MANY OF THOSE YEARS THE WINGS HAD NO 1ST ROUND DRAFT CHOICE.

Wouldn't it be great if the Habs could get that "lucky" even once!
Est-ce que tu connait Andrei Markov ?

Just incase you're English too... Do you know Andrei Markov ?

I think we got lucky. We just haven't really gotten lucky on our forwards. Streit too, but he's gone.

Analyzer* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2009, 01:04 AM
  #180
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 9,262
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kostopoulos View Post
It is a myth and there is a lot of luck involved.
If they thought Zetterberg or Datsyuk would be superstars, they would have drafted them in the first or second round. Anything below those rounds is mainly luck.

Detroit is still overally the best managed organization.
This has more to do with their success than the drafting on it's own...

they are very good, or have been very good over the past decade+ at developping their drafted players and creating a good environment for them to succeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1111111111111000 View Post
Detroit was drafting late in rounds and had not much of first round choice while they were trading hem to get players for the playoffs.

Then here's a look at the players that both teams drafted in second round and later since 1998

Detroit Red Wings :

Datsyuk - 171 overallsigned long term
Zetterberg - 255 overallsigned long term
Kopecky - 38 overall27, still with the team, UFA
Fillpula - 95 overallsigned long term
Fleishman - 63 overallused in deadline trade to aquire Lang
Hudler - 58 overall24, still with team, RFA
Franzen - 97 overallre-signed long term

Montreal Canadiens :

Ryder - 216 overallgone as UFA, 25-30 goal scorer- zero return
Markov - 162 overallsigned long term
Ribeiro - 45 overalltraded for Niniimaa, now ppg player- zero return
Plekanec - 71 overall25, still with team RFA
Halak - 271 overall23, still with team
Streit - 262 overallgone as UFA, 7th dmen points, 25+min/game, zero return
Sergei Kostitsyn - 200 overall21, still with team
Latendresse - 45 overall21, still with team
asset management... it's the name of the game.
The red wings are pretty much the best in the league at developping and retaining their own talent.

Drafts, Trades and UFA's signings all have an element of "luck" or "crap-shoot" about them, but there is a clear difference between GM's/Franchises that do a good job of controlling what they can and maximizing the assets they have, and those teams that repeatidly "waste" their assets.

Habs aren't the worst, but we still aren't even close to the Red Wings in that department.
This summer is perhaps the greatest test of this. With so many UFA's, the pressure is squarely on Gainey to show that his "plan" is still on track.

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2013, 07:23 AM
  #181
FerrisRox
Registered User
 
FerrisRox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,406
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I think you have a great difficulty understanding what "close to in overall quality and quantity" implies. It doesn't imply that they are "similar in exact quality" nor in exact quantity, it rather implies that if you would calculate (if possible) an overall for each player and add them up altogether, the O-V-E-R-A-L-L would be close. The word overall is the key word here, as this adjective implies that the mix of quality AND quantity is close. Not that the quality is the same. Maybe you have great difficulty with critical text analysis or maybe I should've added the word 'ratio' although it seemed quite evident that it was implied. Also, notice the fact I said "close" not "similar", as similar implies that they are about the same. Close implies that the distance or difference is not far but that there is a difference. Nice try twisting my words, changing the implication of what I've said.

First off, if you don't consider Markov a superstar in this league (he wasn't chosen on the first all-star team for nothing right?), we should end this discussion right away and you should stop questioning my supposed bias.

Now, are you able to understand that NONE on Detroit's list OTHER THAN Zetterberg and Datsyuk are even close to what Markov, Ribeiro, Ryder and Plekanec are. Even Streit stands out from the others on the Detroit list. You could compare the others to what Latendresse and Kostitsyn are at the moment (and even Kostitsyn should be considered better than the other 5 in the list, but what you actually state in your comment is totally the opposite).

Also, I don't know if you realize but Ribeiro finished 13th overall for most points in the entire league this year, just 9 points less than Zets and 13 points less than Datsyuk. He should also be considered a NHL superstar/elite player, granted he doesn't play with Detroit, one of the best coaching system in the league, with THE best defenseman in the entire league, so no point of arguing about the team's achievments that are recorded individualy for the two Detroit players.

As for Plekanec he finished 41st pointer of the entire league, that makes him an obvious star in this league. Luckily for you, we aren't 2-3 years into the future as I'm convinced Pleks will still improve, as Datsyuk and Zetterberg also did with time, as I hope you also realize that both of them didn't dominate from the get-go as they do now. Also in the sake of talking about future progression, S Kostitsyn (0.52ppg) has shown as much as both Detroit players (HZ 0.56 ppg PD 0.50 ppg) did in their rookie seasons and also SKost did it at a younger age, but I will still leave him out and not consider him as only the future will tell of his progression, but it is safe to say he can easily be compared to Franzen in terms of production (at a much younger age as Franzen didn't show as much in his rookie season and came into the league in his mid-twenties) and should be (Skost) considered as higher stock than that Detroit player.

Maybe a quick rundown will make you better understand what I mean by overall quality and quantity. We will give the players an overall that should be relatively close to what they are. Now I will base this on what the players have accomplised, their talent, and the age they made their accomplishments (if close) to the others. I will try to this similarly to what hockey games do with the overalls (from 0 to 100). Keep in mind that this is based on my personal opinion and that I try to be partial as much as one can be, so don't come crying bias like someone who lacks substance to create an argument, because if you would've done this same process by yourself, the results would be close, unless you have a marked bias (as I presume, because you've completely ignored the difference between Ribeiro, Plekanec, Streit and Ryder compared to the rest of the Detroit bunch outside of Zets and Dats, and the difference in accomplishment and talent is very notable).

Datsyuk 97
Zetterberg 97
Markov 92
Ribeiro 90
Plekanec 85
Streit 80
Kostitsyn 78
Ryder 75 (note that Ryder has accomplished much more personaly than Franzen at a much younger age, and more than Hudler at this point)
Hudler 75
Franzen 74
Filppula 70
Latendresse 68
Fleischmann 65
Kopecky 65
Halak 60 (even tho he shows great potential)

So we have an overall average of 78,5 for the Habs and an average of 77,6 for Detroit.

Note that I don't think this makes it better for Montreal, because Detroit does have Zetterberg and Datsyuk, but to say that the ""Detroit group of players is unquestionably better then the Montreal group"" is pure non-sense and shows your own bias, as your assertion implies that the likes of Ribeiro, Markov, Plekanec, Streit, Kostitsyn and even Ryder don't have an impact on their own team and relegate them to the same level as the lesser players in Detroit's group, which in fact is complete lunacy as they've accomplished much much more than the Franzen, Hudler, Filppula, Kopecky and Fleishmman.

I can actually state this as certainty, that you made this biased, ridiculous assertion, when you said and I quote :




Which would imply that this includes Ryder, Kostitsyn, Streit, Latendresse and Halak.

And you went on and said :


meaning outside of Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

So from this, we should correctly understand that (the first line I actually agree on) :

Zetterberg Datsyuk > Markov >

The previous are better than the next (as the next are "good guys") :

Plekanec Ribeiro = Franzen, Hudler, Filppula, Kopecky and Fleishmman

The previous are better than (as the next are "sold support players" :

Ryder, Kostitsyn, Streit, Latendresse and Halak

This is absolutely ridiculous and screams of bias. Maybe you are just piss poor at analysis, but please next time don't say I have "great difficult seeing past my bias".

You are truly unable to differentiate degrees of talent and accomplishment, ergo unable to fully formulate a comparison between the two groups.

An actual assesment with one's head not up his arse would give this :

Top 1% of the league :
Zetterberg and Datsyuk
Top 2-3% of the league :
Ribeiro and Markov
Top 6-7% of the league :
Plekanec
Top 10-15% of the league :
Streit
Top 15-20% of the league :
Kostitsyn, Hudler
Top 20-25% of the league :
Ryder, Franzen, Filppula
Top 25-50% of the league :
Latendresse, Fleishmman, Kopecky, Halak

Montreal as many more above-average players in their group, while Detroit, aside from the 2 top 1%, have players that are in the average of the league in this present group.

That's why I say the OVERALL quality and quantity is close.
Here's a "Let's check out this thread five years from now" thread, and, well, it's five years later.

FerrisRox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2013, 07:25 AM
  #182
Madevilz
Registered User
 
Madevilz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 3,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Moen View Post

Detroit is still overally the best managed organization.
Detroit should hire the Red Wings staff to manage their city.
Srs


Last edited by Madevilz: 07-23-2013 at 07:26 AM. Reason: dammit, strong bump poster above me
Madevilz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2013, 08:16 AM
  #183
pezcore
Registered User
 
pezcore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: St-Hubert, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 295
vCash: 500
I dont know if they're drafting is far superior than anyone else in the NHL but if you want to compare them to us, I believe they have/had the luxury of player development as we didnt.

Most would say that some of our good rookies were rushed in the NHL as for Detroit, you usually play a year or two in Grand Rapids and must players are in their 20s before they crack the roster.

pezcore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2013, 08:21 AM
  #184
Frozenice
the random dude
 
Frozenice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,009
vCash: 500
Maybe it's more about having a purpose and a plan when you draft that's important, rather then drafting random BPA and hoping it will work out in the end, some way, somehow.

Frozenice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2013, 08:26 AM
  #185
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 33,738
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=Melvin Udall;19042787]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kostopoulos View Post
It is a myth and there is a lot of luck involved.
If they thought Zetterberg or Datsyuk would be superstars, they would have drafted them in the first or second round. Anything below those rounds is mainly luck.

Luck?...............Really?

So how is it that 1 team can get so repeatedly "lucky" while none of the other 29 NHL teams can do so (as least repeatedly)?

So, the "LUCKY" Detroit Red Wings drafted - not in the first round...........

Round - 3: Johan Franzen
Round - 2: Jiri Hudler
Round - 7: Henrik Zetterberg
Round - 6: Pavel Datsyuk
Round -10: Tomas Holmstrom
Round - 3: Nicklas Lidstrom
Round - 4: Sergei Fedorov

MANY OF THOSE YEARS THE WINGS HAD NO 1ST ROUND DRAFT CHOICE.

Wouldn't it be great if the Habs could get that "lucky" even once!
Most of those picks are 15+ years ago. When we talk about "best drafting teams" I could care less about the 1990's. Tell me who's drafted better the last 10 years, or since the cap first came in. The importance of drafting has gone up dramatically with the salary cap. In the old days big market teams spent their money moreso on FA's instead of on scouting.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2013, 11:53 PM
  #186
Toro
Registered User
 
Toro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Windsor
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,788
vCash: 500
Detroit's great drafting has ended. They no longer have a recent past of great success as they did long ago. In the last 5 yrs they have drafted few NHL'ers. Detroit has been feeling the pinch of a dried up talent pool for a few years and is getting worse. Heck even Detroit's management ranks have been decimated.

Montreal has probably the best draft record the last 10 yrs!
I don't think any other team has drafted or produced as many NHL'ers.

Montreal has a pipeline filled with potential NHL'ers like no other team.

I have no problem believing in this team to win a cup in next 3 yrs as long as management doesn't do anything stupid.

Toro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 06:05 AM
  #187
beowulf
Not a nice guy.
 
beowulf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 41,620
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to beowulf
Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Uhhh maybe you should check Detroit's average drafting position compared to Montreal's. Kinda left that part out of your expert analysis.
And the fact they were not afraid to trade away first round picks.

beowulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 07:22 AM
  #188
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 33,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
And the fact they were not afraid to trade away first round picks.
That was the pre-cap era. They could trade away picks because they could outspend 95% of the NHL on the UFA market and there was no salary cap...same for NYR Phillie Toronto

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 08:55 AM
  #189
Whitesnake
Steel your Habs away
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 53,815
vCash: 725
Detroit has become the team they were in the past decade and more based on numerous things but first and foremost, their key players were drafted players. Players you have a tough time acquiring. That's key. They might not have had tons of quantity but again, strangely, we keep hearing that Montreal was able to do so much, not having too many high picks....well how about Detroit? How come that excuse doesn't come up for them?

In the end, quality over quantity. Detroit is proving it. But you also need to surround your quality, which they also were able to do.

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 10:51 AM
  #190
Chris Cutter
Devil's Advocate
 
Chris Cutter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Beauce
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,857
vCash: 500
Detroit did a lot better job at developing their prospects, especially by letting them play a couple seasons in the AHL, that's the difference imo between Montreal and Detroit in the last 5 years.

Chris Cutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 10:56 AM
  #191
Burke the Legend
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,614
vCash: 500
Drafting Zetterberg & Datsyuk saved them from having to do a rebuild once the Yzerman/Shannahan era guys retired they were able to seemlessly replace their top 6 anchor talent in-house without trading, UFA or draft programs that don't always work out.

Burke the Legend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 11:23 AM
  #192
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 31,271
vCash: 883
I hope those who think they're overrated are right seeing how their success will directly affect us now. Sadly, I can see a guy like Nyqvist breaking out just as they enter our division.

Watsatheo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 11:38 AM
  #193
Axey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cape Breton, NS
Country: Canada
Posts: 17
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toro View Post
Detroit's great drafting has ended. They no longer have a recent past of great success as they did long ago. In the last 5 yrs they have drafted few NHL'ers. Detroit has been feeling the pinch of a dried up talent pool for a few years and is getting worse. Heck even Detroit's management ranks have been decimated.

Montreal has probably the best draft record the last 10 yrs!
I don't think any other team has drafted or produced as many NHL'ers.

Montreal has a pipeline filled with potential NHL'ers like no other team.

I have no problem believing in this team to win a cup in next 3 yrs as long as management doesn't do anything stupid.
Are you aware Detroit's AHL team just won the Calder cup with the key players being young talent they drafted? Nyquist, Tatar, Frk, Jurco, Almquist, Mrazek, Sheahan, Ferraro, Andersson, Sproul, Ouellet, Pulkkinen.. Not a bad pipeline, especially considering some of these guys are NHL ready.


Last edited by Axey: 07-24-2013 at 11:46 AM.
Axey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 11:44 AM
  #194
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 33,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I hope those who think they're overrated are right seeing how their success will directly affect us now. Sadly, I can see a guy like Nyqvist breaking out just as they enter our division.
I don't see any of their young players remotely coming close to replacing Lidstrom Zetterberg and Datsyuk. That's why they are just an average to slightly above average team since Lidstrom passed his prime, and now retired. If Dat and Zet decline they may miss the playoffs.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 11:45 AM
  #195
thom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,266
vCash: 500
Sam Pollock is a legend but do people remenber Ray Martininuik from Flin Flon,Cam Conner from Flin flon,Pierre Sadler from Edmonton,Peter Lee from Ottawa and Dan Geoffrion from Cornwall.These were 1st round picks from Sam Pollock'-s scouting staff.Most were busts or borderline players.

thom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 11:46 AM
  #196
AJMHABS
#31 for Vezina
 
AJMHABS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,658
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Moen View Post
It is a myth and there is a lot of luck involved.
If they thought Zetterberg or Datsyuk would be superstars, they would have drafted them in the first or second round. Anything below those rounds is mainly luck.

Detroit is still overally the best managed organization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1111111111111000 View Post
I agree with that and they play hockey like all 30 teams should play it.
Agreed, they are the classiest organization and the best runned, even 5 years after.


Last edited by AJMHABS: 07-24-2013 at 11:53 AM.
AJMHABS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 11:51 AM
  #197
habsfan29
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 46
vCash: 500
before anyone forgets, they drafted MANTHA

habsfan29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 11:55 AM
  #198
bud12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,732
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axey View Post
Are you aware Detroit's AHL team just won the Calder cup with the key players being young talent they drafted? Nyquist, Tatar, Frk, Jurco, Almquist, Mrazek, Sheahan, Ferraro, Andersson, Sproul, Ouellet, Pulkkinen.. Not a bad pipeline, especially considering some of these guys are NHL ready.
go watch the Hamilton Bulldogs 07 Rosters. Only A.Kost was a regular NHl'er in that roster

bud12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 12:09 PM
  #199
Chris Cutter
Devil's Advocate
 
Chris Cutter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Beauce
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,857
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
go watch the Hamilton Bulldogs 07 Rosters. Only A.Kost was a regular NHl'er in that roster
I suggest you do the same with the Grand Rapids' roster, much younger than the Bulldogs roster. We had guys like Manlow, Baynes and others who were in their late 20s early 30s. Plus O'Byrne, Chipchura, Lapierre and Price/Halak came out from that team.

Chris Cutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-24-2013, 05:09 PM
  #200
CrAzYNiNe
Registered User
 
CrAzYNiNe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,120
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to CrAzYNiNe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Moen View Post
It is a myth and there is a lot of luck involved.
If they thought Zetterberg or Datsyuk would be superstars, they would have drafted them in the first or second round. Anything below those rounds is mainly luck.

Detroit is still overally the best managed organization.
This type of thinking is absurd. If Detroit knew they had talent, but the rest of the league never saw them, why would they waste their top picks on players no one else is going to draft? It's always a risk, but no way do you take players early that aren't on anyone elses boards when you can get other good players and draft these guys later.

CrAzYNiNe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:18 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.