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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-23-2013, 11:26 PM
  #751
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Personally, I say that saving that saving 4% in cap next year ($5.5M - $2.875M = $2.625M/$64M cap) is more important than saving 3.5% ($8M - $5.5M = $2.5M/$70M) when the cap goes up and more contracts expire and there is more time to plan around the raise. Must just be me.
It wasn't more important. We were eligible for 2 compliance buyouts, which was more than enough to cover for PK at 2.7M more for last year and this upcoming one.
We were in a transitional phase as well, cap space isn't what matters seeing how you are waiting for older contracts to run out, build through prospects, and make timely free agent signings.
2-3-4 years from when PK signed was when the youngsters would take much higher roles on our team, have a bigger impact, and that's when you go all out on more expensive free agents that you'll have no choice but to overpay.

There is no hindsight. We had enough space to fit PK under, we were/are in a transitional phase, we had finished last in East, MB said there's a lot of work to be done, that he wants to rebuild through drafting and prospects.
You have the chance to sign a young proven star to a long term cheap deal that gives you no cap issues. You do it.

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07-24-2013, 01:14 AM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Short answer:

I don't know why the hell he didn't just lock him up for 5 for 25. I don't know why he forced 2.8 on him. None of it makes any sense. Esp since we're going to need the cap space in the coming years... not now.
we save money for 5 years and then lose him trough FA once he enter his prime at 27/28, awesome!

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07-24-2013, 01:30 AM
  #753
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
we save money for 5 years and then lose him trough FA once he enter his prime at 27/28, awesome!
Why would we nor be able to resign Subban?

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07-24-2013, 02:40 AM
  #754
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Why would we nor be able to resign Subban?
you really want to take that risk, and watch 29 other GM making crazy offers to P.K. in his prime ?

if that were to happen, we'd have to pay maximum salary in 5 years (whatever that max is at that tme)... 9 Mil ? 9.5 Mil ? more ?

if that's the risk youre willing to take, at the very least dont say MB was stupid (not you personally, dont remember if you said so anyway) for risking to overpay Subban... you know.

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07-24-2013, 08:10 AM
  #755
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you really want to take that risk, and watch 29 other GM making crazy offers to P.K. in his prime ?

if that were to happen, we'd have to pay maximum salary in 5 years (whatever that max is at that tme)... 9 Mil ? 9.5 Mil ? more ?

if that's the risk youre willing to take, at the very least dont say MB was stupid (not you personally, dont remember if you said so anyway) for risking to overpay Subban... you know.
Good point.

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07-24-2013, 08:36 AM
  #756
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I would have no problem with MB giving PK an 8 year deal in the range of 6-6.5M per right now.

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07-24-2013, 10:44 AM
  #757
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
argumentum ad populum and a strawman all in the same post. I applaud you.
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Not only the same post, but in the same assertion.
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Originally Posted by danisonfire View Post
As the official logical fallacy police, this is no simple feat. (Rate of one per seven words)



Bonus points.
Oh look. Chiwawa comments trying to bite ankles, in a big dogs' argument. How cute.

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07-24-2013, 10:45 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you really want to take that risk, and watch 29 other GM making crazy offers to P.K. in his prime ?

if that were to happen, we'd have to pay maximum salary in 5 years (whatever that max is at that tme)... 9 Mil ? 9.5 Mil ? more ?

if that's the risk youre willing to take, at the very least dont say MB was stupid (not you personally, dont remember if you said so anyway) for risking to overpay Subban... you know.
No reason why we couldn't extend him, and how much he'll ask in 5 years is anyone's guess. But we would have had him for 5 years at below market value, as opposed to 2.

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07-24-2013, 10:48 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Oh look. Chiwawa comments trying to bite ankles, in a big dogs' argument. How cute.

Hey look, an argumentum ad hominem. How predictable.




Next I suggest you use the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy, or perhaps even the under-used tu quoque.

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07-24-2013, 10:48 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It wasn't more important. We were eligible for 2 compliance buyouts, which was more than enough to cover for PK at 2.7M more for last year and this upcoming one.
We were in a transitional phase as well, cap space isn't what matters seeing how you are waiting for older contracts to run out, build through prospects, and make timely free agent signings.
2-3-4 years from when PK signed was when the youngsters would take much higher roles on our team, have a bigger impact, and that's when you go all out on more expensive free agents that you'll have no choice but to overpay.

There is no hindsight. We had enough space to fit PK under, we were/are in a transitional phase, we had finished last in East, MB said there's a lot of work to be done, that he wants to rebuild through drafting and prospects.
You have the chance to sign a young proven star to a long term cheap deal that gives you no cap issues. You do it.
  1. Amnesty buyouts were great to get under the cap. I fail to see how the additional money can't be used in a trade for a key player now or at the deadline.
  2. You keep coming back with the 2-4 years down the line, yet the team finished second in the East last year. Is it remotely possible that the Habs could have a shot this year (or next), and that Bergevin is building a team for now and the future?

Yet, I still don't understand you. Apparently, the cap is important only for the sake your your own argument, otherwise it doesn't count. Stop contradicting yourself.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What are you talking about?

You need cap space to sign players. Shall we never discuss contracts because we don't know how the rest will later be used?

I'm not cap obsessed either. You're turning it into a huge cap thing when I've repeated countless times it wasn't the end of the world. But it's not because it's not the be all end all of things that you have to use the ''who cares'' attitude.

Any space saved helps. Funny you say this but then mention that we saved on the space last year and this up coming one. Then when people mention that the cap will be more important during the competitive years (like to be in the next 2-3-4 years) you go back to ''well give me an example and if you can't, you're wrong'' BS.

It's not even about needing the cap or not, it's about having the flexibility of having a couple extra million there. If we don't use it, then it's pretty irrelevant, but that's using hindsight. But the point stands, any time you can save cash when it's there for the taking, you do it. This is not even debatable. Stop being so hard pressed on making it seem as if cap space is overrated. It is, I agree. But if it's there, you take it.
Would you rather have our current roster with 0M on the cap, or 6M? It's seriously not hard to understand. Stop being stubborn on this issue, you're a better poster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As for the savings, what were they? We had enough cap space last season to have PK signed to a deal doubled his cap hit, and that still applies now. That space we ''saved'' was used for absolutely nothing.
That was actually one of the reason some were saying the deal was a good one, because it would permit Bergevin to get a player around the deadline (he didn't), and then it was because he was going to sign some UFA (he did except not the guy anybody here wanted) but we still have the room.
So what's the point in saving some cash if you don't use it?
Zzzing!

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Old
07-24-2013, 12:58 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Oh look. Chiwawa comments trying to bite ankles, in a big dogs' argument. How cute.
Argumentum ad hominem. The question in this thread is subjective. A "big dog" would rely on supporting evidence to broadcast their claim, not a personal attack. They also would not need to self-proclaim themselves a big dog, their posts supported by evidence would speak for themselves. I have enjoyed your thought out posts regarding subjective topics in past threads. When you resort to committing logical fallacies, it weakens your argument. I would love to read (in one future post preferably) your claims and support from this thread outlined. It would help the other side arguing against to better understand you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
  1. Amnesty buyouts were great to get under the cap. I fail to see how the additional money can't be used in a trade for a key player now or at the deadline.
  2. You keep coming back with the 2-4 years down the line, yet the team finished second in the East last year. Is it remotely possible that the Habs could have a shot this year (or next), and that Bergevin is building a team for now and the future?

Yet, I still don't understand you. Apparently, the cap is important only for the sake your your own argument, otherwise it doesn't count. Stop contradicting yourself.
Understanding the other side arguing against you in a subjective question is important. It will help you better state your subjective opinion.

I agree with your fundamental root message in this thread. The delivery is where you are running into problems with condescending overtones. If you have clearly stated your claims with support and people still disagree with you, they are entitled to that. It doesn't make them or you wrong. Subjective questions are always open for debate. For myself, one thought out post (which you have many in the past), is stronger than several outbursts from the other side of an argument.

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07-24-2013, 02:52 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
  1. Amnesty buyouts were great to get under the cap. I fail to see how the additional money can't be used in a trade for a key player now or at the deadline.
  2. You keep coming back with the 2-4 years down the line, yet the team finished second in the East last year. Is it remotely possible that the Habs could have a shot this year (or next), and that Bergevin is building a team for now and the future?

Yet, I still don't understand you. Apparently, the cap is important only for the sake your your own argument, otherwise it doesn't count. Stop contradicting yourself.
1- Cap dropped by 6M. Amnesty buyouts clear just under 12M. We had more than enough space to sign PK to an extra 2.7M and get another player.
2- When PK signed his deal we just finished last. This year, we finished 2nd, after 48 games and a pretty healthy line up. I don't think we're a 2nd place team. In any event, I said 2-4 years (from when PK signed) meaning this upcoming year could be the start of it and next off summer would be the time to really go after bigger names available. So any cap spaced saved next year would have been better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Zzzing!
Two different quotes. One where hindsight is possible, one where it isn't.

In one instance, PK is signed for 1 1/2 seasons. That means Bergevin only has over a year to use this extra bit of space. We now know it wasn't. So what's the point.

In the other instance, PK is signed for 5 years, that means Bergevin has 5 full seasons to use it. If after 5 years, season after season we ended up with an extra 3M cap then you can say it was irrelevant.

But the point still stands, when you do not know what's going to happen in the future, having flexibility (over a longer period of time) is better.

At this point I don't expect you to understand much of anything anyways.

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07-24-2013, 03:05 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by danisonfire View Post
Argumentum ad hominem. The question in this thread is subjective. A "big dog" would rely on supporting evidence to broadcast their claim, not a personal attack. They also would not need to self-proclaim themselves a big dog, their posts supported by evidence would speak for themselves. I have enjoyed your thought out posts regarding subjective topics in past threads. When you resort to committing logical fallacies, it weakens your argument. I would love to read (in one future post preferably) your claims and support from this thread outlined. It would help the other side arguing against to better understand you.



Understanding the other side arguing against you in a subjective question is important. It will help you better state your subjective opinion.

I agree with your fundamental root message in this thread. The delivery is where you are running into problems with condescending overtones. If you have clearly stated your claims with support and people still disagree with you, they are entitled to that. It doesn't make them or you wrong. Subjective questions are always open for debate. For myself, one thought out post (which you have many in the past), is stronger than several outbursts from the other side of an argument.
In all due respect, I've written a 1,300 words article on the topic and two or three lenghty posts clarifying the position. I don't feel like having to re-state everything every time someone feels like they need more clarification. It's a waste of time. A quick search of my username in the thread will show just that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
1- Cap dropped by 6M. Amnesty buyouts clear just under 12M. We had more than enough space to sign PK to an extra 2.7M and get another player.
2- When PK signed his deal we just finished last. This year, we finished 2nd, after 48 games and a pretty healthy line up. I don't think we're a 2nd place team. In any event, I said 2-4 years (from when PK signed) meaning this upcoming year could be the start of it and next off summer would be the time to really go after bigger names available. So any cap spaced saved next year would have been better.



Two different quotes. One where hindsight is possible, one where it isn't.

In one instance, PK is signed for 1 1/2 seasons. That means Bergevin only has over a year to use this extra bit of space. We now know it wasn't. So what's the point.

In the other instance, PK is signed for 5 years, that means Bergevin has 5 full seasons to use it. If after 5 years, season after season we ended up with an extra 3M cap then you can say it was irrelevant.

But the point still stands, when you do not know what's going to happen in the future, having flexibility (over a longer period of time) is better.

At this point I don't expect you to understand much of anything anyways.
Oh don't worry, I fully understand. Convenience for your argument. It counts when YOU feel it should and doesn't count when it goes against YOUR opinion. I understood a long time ago.

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Old
07-24-2013, 03:10 PM
  #764
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Okay guys enough.....Look at it this way.....life could be much worst than wondering if MB should or could have signed PK.....for example your name could be George Alexander Louis....

In all seriousness, I'll guess I'll simplify it too much, but I hate seeeing policies that are immovable. At one point, creating an "exception" for a guy is just that...an exception of a guy OF exception. There was no need for a bridge contract. You do that when you are still not sure of a guy's progress. Everybody knew PK was a stud. They should have found a way to sign him long term. Same people who are defending MB right now would incredibly praise him based on the contracts that d-men just signed and will be signing. Now, we have a trophy to add to that. That's hindsight, but the greatness of his play wasn't as we pretty much all predicted it. It's all about trying to make the best deal possible so that you can build a greater team. MB tried to do that with DD....we'll see if that pays out. Now, PK has every right to demand the type of contract we thought was stupid of him to ask just 1 year ago.....


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07-24-2013, 03:14 PM
  #765
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Haven't been following this thread at all. What do you guys think Subban will get per year next contract?

I'm thinking 7.25. Scared of anything higher than that.

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07-24-2013, 03:15 PM
  #766
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Oh don't worry, I fully understand. Convenience for your argument. It counts when YOU feel it should and doesn't count when it goes against YOUR opinion. I understood a long time ago.
No you clearly didn't, either that or you're playing dumb. You choose.

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07-24-2013, 03:18 PM
  #767
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Originally Posted by Dagistitsyn View Post
Haven't been following this thread at all. What do you guys think Subban will get per year next contract?

I'm thinking 7.25. Scared of anything higher than that.
anywhere between 6-8 depending on next season. unless he wins norris again, then its 8++

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07-24-2013, 03:48 PM
  #768
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
No reason why we couldn't extend him, and how much he'll ask in 5 years is anyone's guess. But we would have had him for 5 years at below market value, as opposed to 2.
we have him for less $ for three years, but have to pay him 9 mil + after... when he's a FA, when he's in his prime... and we have to compete with 29 other GMs to re-sign him.

good damn! that sounds like such a great idea! maybe we'll get lucky and see the cap raise enough to finally have our first player making 10 per! can't wait!

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07-24-2013, 04:26 PM
  #769
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anywhere between 6-8 depending on next season. unless he wins norris again, then its 8++
That would be the dream, to see PK win the Norris a second time in a row.

I wouldn't care paying the bug bucks.

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07-24-2013, 04:43 PM
  #770
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
we have him for less $ for three years, but have to pay him 9 mil + after... when he's a FA, when he's in his prime... and we have to compete with 29 other GMs to re-sign him.

good damn! that sounds like such a great idea! maybe we'll get lucky and see the cap raise enough to finally have our first player making 10 per! can't wait!
Not necessarily.

5 years from 2013 bring us to the 2016-2017 where Subban turns 28 in May. Before that time he could of signed an extension (He is a habs fan, and like you would you take more money to play else where? I wouldn't)for 8 years, taking him to 36 years old, where you can front load a contract following these simple rules: 35% year to year rule + the 50% of lowest to highest.

Still a better outcome than this stupid bridge contract shenanigans.

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07-24-2013, 05:13 PM
  #771
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Not necessarily.

5 years from 2013 bring us to the 2016-2017 where Subban turns 28 in May. Before that time he could of signed an extension (He is a habs fan, and like you would you take more money to play else where? I wouldn't)for 8 years, taking him to 36 years old, where you can front load a contract following these simple rules: 35% year to year rule + the 50% of lowest to highest.

Still a better outcome than this stupid bridge contract shenanigans.
for 1.5 or 2 Mil more ? you would, no need to pretend otherwise, everyone (except Brodeur) would.

and By then, a P.K. IN HIS PRIME and UFA would cost you WAY more.


Agreed, how stupid it is to have to pay him 7 Mil when you can wait two or three more years and pay him 9... right ?



it's actually such a wonderful idea, I think MB should do that to our other RFA, extend them till their FA years! can you imagine all the cap saved!! =)


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07-24-2013, 05:25 PM
  #772
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
for 1.5 or 2 Mil more ? you would, no need to pretend otherwise, everyone (except Brodeur) would.

and By then, a P.K. IN HIS PRIME and UFA would cost you WAY more.


Agreed, how stupid it is to have to pay him 7 Mil when you can wait two or three more years and pay him 9... right ?
Yes you sign him in his prime, but 8 years after 28, he is 36. No longer his prime. Front load the contract, within the rules. What do you not understand?

2017-2018 ---> 9,000,000$ (end of the season he is 29)
2018-2019 ---> 9,000,000$ (end of the season he is 30)
2019-2020 ---> 9,000,000$ (end of the season he is 31)
2020-2021 ---> 5,850,000$ (end of the season he is 32)
2021-2022 ---> 5,850,000$ (end of the season he is 33)
2022-2023 ---> 5,850,000$ (end of the season he is 34)
2023-2024 ---> 4,500,000$ (end of the season he is 35)
2024-2025 ---> 4,500,000$ (end of the season he is 36)
Cap hit of 6.69 million cap hit.

Look at the cap hit, very reasonable.

Cap hit of 5 million from 2013 until that contract

2013 ---------> 5,000,000$ (end of the season he is 24)
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$ (end of the season he is 25)
2014-2015 ---> 5,000,000$ (end of the season he is 26)
2015-2016 ---> 5,000,000$ (end of the season he is 27)
2016-2017 ---> 5,000,000$ (end of the season he is 28)

If not for this bridge, Subban would never have a cap hit over 7 million. Now he will. GET IT?


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07-24-2013, 05:31 PM
  #773
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Beside, if you think about it using the 5y contract example people said Subban apparently wanted. It would have saved us money only over 3 years. Current situation is 2y 2.4 M, with most likely 8y at 7.5m, give or take.

Their alternative would have been 5y 5M. But following that year,considering Subban's development and salary cap increase (not to forget likely horrendous UFA inflation that will make this summer look mild) we could easily have to pay between 9 to 11M 5 years henceforth.

Which means the final comparison should be:

2.4 v 5
2.4 v 5
7.5 v 5
7.5 v 5
7.5 v 5
7.5 v 10
7.5 v 10
7.5 v 10
7.5 v 10
7.5 v 10

We can possibly consider a 5 year cap discount in the future.

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07-24-2013, 05:33 PM
  #774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Beside, if you think about it using the 5y contract example people said Subban apparently wanted. It would have saved us money only over 3 years. Current situation is 2y 2.4 M, with most likely 8y at 7.5m, give or take.

Their alternative would have been 5y 5M. But following that year,considering Subban's development and salary cap increase (not to forget likely horrendous UFA inflation that will make this summer look mild) we could easily have to pay between 9 to 11M 5 years henceforth.

Which means the final comparison should be:

2.4 v 5
2.4 v 5
7.5 v 5
7.5 v 5
7.5 v 5
7.5 v 10
7.5 v 10
7.5 v 10
7.5 v 10
7.5 v 10

We can possibly consider a 5 year cap discount in the future.
Your numbers are wrong. Give him 8 years after the 5 at 5 and do it front loaded since this 8 year contract ends at 36 years old.

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07-24-2013, 05:37 PM
  #775
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Your numbers are wrong. Give him 8 years after the 5 at 5 and do it front loaded since this 8 year contract ends at 36 years old.
Your numbers are all wrong, buddy. You seriously expect the cap to remain the same in 5 years? You think Subban.would go for anything less than a 10 cap hit, even if the contracts ends at his 36?

Don't dream, buddy. Teams will be hungry for a veteran as skilled as Subban, and won't hesitate to shell out the cash. For god's sake, just look at this year's selection of UFA, and what they have been paid!!

AND THE CAP IS GOING DOWN

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