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Old
07-25-2013, 03:33 AM
  #1
Paper
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Flames-Flyers


Giordano @ 3M cap/year (total salary retained is ~3M over the next 3 years)
Glencross


B. Schenn
Meszaros @ 2M cap/year (total salary retained is 2.75M this year due to his salary being 5.5M)

This assumes that the players waive their NTC and it should keep the Flyers just cap compliant if they are able to utilize Prongers full LTIR, depending on who exactly makes the team. If not adjust salaries until they are.

The Flames move 2 of their current top players. At 29 and 30 they aren't old fogies but they are likely past their prime when the rebuild ends. Losing that much veteran presence does hurt but it's the only chance at all to bring in elite young talent without moving their own. Schenn will hopefully develop into a top 6 center creating a nice 1-2 punch with Monahan. Add in Backlund and Jankowski and the Flames finally start to have some center depth developing. Meszaros isn't the ideal defenseman to provide veteran presence and stability on the backend but it's a cost of getting a young center. Worst case scenario is he becomes tradebait at the deadline.

The Flyers have Giroux, Lecavalier and Couturier down the middle, add in Laughton and they are looking good even without Schenn. Since they might be moving him to wing anyways where he'll be a fast gritty forward hopefully providing offense, Glencross provides the same role (although less skilled). Over a full season he might be able to chip in close to 30 goals like he's been on pace for over the last couple years. It's still obvious that Glencross is going to be a huge downgrade to Schenn in a couple years but Giordano is an obvious upgrade over Meszaros. With Glencross at 2.55M and Giordano at 3M for the next couple seasons they will be making combined as much as David Clarkson in Toronto. That will provide cap flexibility for the near future while players like Lecavalier, Streit, Timmonen, and Hartnell are capable of playing at their current levels.

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Old
07-25-2013, 03:50 AM
  #2
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The Flames wouldn't be moving both Giordano and Glencross without high picks / prospects coming back. By all means, this proposal is extremely unlikely.
Calgary would like to support its youth movement with a veteran presence and that comes in the form of players such as Glencross and Giordano who are valued highly not just for what they bring on the ice but off it as well - therefore, the old adage "x player is worth more to their team" comes into play. The Flames club might be a basement club right now but they have a good group of young talent coming in and that group will require leadership in order to transition successfully into the NHL.

Schenn's a great piece but with the way Calgary is ranked as a club right now, they don't need to trade to get a player like him or potentially better within the next two seasons as they can likely develop their own through the draft. In other words, this trade's probably 3 years too late for the Flames club.

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Old
07-25-2013, 03:56 AM
  #3
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Originally Posted by Autograph View Post
The Flames wouldn't be moving both Giordano and Glencross without high picks / prospects coming back.
Schenn is a 5th overall, 21 year old. It's not like he's too old.

I agree with veteran presence and developing own talent. But if your main concern is because Schenn has actually played in the NHL, making him not a prospect, that's some backwards thinking.


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Old
07-25-2013, 04:08 AM
  #4
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The Flyers have no need for another Top 4 Defensemen, also they have no need for Glencross. If the Flyers would trade Schenn for another offensive player, they would want a young winger with similar upside such as him back.
I, as a Flyers fan wouldn't do that move.

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07-25-2013, 05:35 AM
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If the Flyers deal Meszaros, it's going to be for his cap space, so retaining salary defeats the purpose, as does adding another expensive defenseman. Are the Flames short on cash?

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07-25-2013, 05:55 AM
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No thanks.

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Old
07-25-2013, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyRoutine View Post
The Flyers have no need for another Top 4 Defensemen
Really? A top 4 of Timonen, Schenn, Streit and Coburn seems pretty terrible for a team that is expecting to try and compete.

Timonen's a decent number 1 guy if his age doesn't catch up to him but at 38 he's bound to lose a step some time. Schenn seems like a number 3 guy. He could play on the top pairing but I wouldn't call him a number 2, at least yet. While Streit was already losing traction at the end of this year. He's 35, he might not bounce back from his injury so easily. If that's why he was playing like he was. And the Flyer management must see something different after that last contract but I definitely don't think Coburn is anything more than a number 4 on a team with crappy depth. I suppose Gustafsson enters the equation, but he has quite the ways to go before sneaking into a top 4 position.

I understand not wanting to move Schenn for a top 4 defenseman (and Giordano's a top 2) but no need at all? I have a feeling this year the Flyer fanbase will do the unthinkable and blame the goaltending if things don't go to well.

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07-25-2013, 07:34 AM
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You'll have a hard time convincing any Flyers fan this being a good idea for them.

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Old
07-25-2013, 07:58 AM
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Glencross would not likely waive to go to Philly.

And I'm not sure the Flames really need Schenn at this point. They've got Monahan now with Jankowski in the wings.

Also under 25 they have Backlund and Reinhart.

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07-25-2013, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by madmike77 View Post
Glencross would not likely waive to go to Philly.
And I'm not sure the Flames really need Schenn at this point. They've got Monahan now with Jankowski in the wings.

Also under 25 they have Backlund and Reinhart.


I'm pretty sure he would wait it to go to any other team, aside from maybe 2 others

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07-25-2013, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post


I'm pretty sure he would wait it to go to any other team, aside from maybe 2 others
Glencross owns a ranch in Alberta and is a part of the Stampede each year.
He signed his contract with the owner present taking a pay cut down to 2.5M in order to get the NMC and never be asked to waive it.

This is said in every Glencross proposal...

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07-25-2013, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post


I'm pretty sure he would wait it to go to any other team, aside from maybe 2 others
Failed

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07-25-2013, 08:35 AM
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The Flyers wouldn’t trade Schenn in a package for Weber last summer prior to the offer sheet, so this idea seem even less likely. And they unfortunately would end up with no cap relief from the deal due to Schenn’s bonus structure.

In terms of retaining salary, the recent Jokinen, Pominville and Bernier trades all involved less than $1 million. Given the Flyers’ current cap predicament, they’re probably the last team that would consider it, especially at a suggested price ($2.75 million) more than three times higher than the Hurricanes paid to move Jokinen ($900,000).

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07-25-2013, 08:55 AM
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In terms of retaining salary, the recent Jokinen, Pominville and Bernier trades all involved less than $1 million. Given the Flyers’ current cap predicament, they’re probably the last team that would consider it, especially at a suggested price ($2.75 million) more than three times higher than the Hurricanes paid to move Jokinen ($900,000).
Fair enough on the first point about Schenn, but I think you're missing my reasoning for the retained salary. The Flames are also retaining salary in case you missed it. The Flyers retain 2.75M over 1 year while the Flames retain 3.06M over 3 years on Giordano's contract. In actual salary it's not much different.

The reasoning is with Pronger on the LTIR, they are going to be over the cap regardless (outside of a trade) this year. They wont be banking cap at all and any bonus earned will count towards next years cap. So if they have the ability to they might as well be spending as much as possible. There's enough cap space to use for a callup for minor injuries, but that's about it and not entirely different then the situation they are in now. With the creative accounting they pay a little bit more now but end up saving a bit and get a 1.02M savings for the next 2 years on Giordano's contract.

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07-25-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Paper View Post
Really? A top 4 of Timonen, Schenn, Streit and Coburn seems pretty terrible for a team that is expecting to try and compete.

Timonen's a decent number 1 guy if his age doesn't catch up to him but at 38 he's bound to lose a step some time. Schenn seems like a number 3 guy. He could play on the top pairing but I wouldn't call him a number 2, at least yet. While Streit was already losing traction at the end of this year. He's 35, he might not bounce back from his injury so easily. If that's why he was playing like he was. And the Flyer management must see something different after that last contract but I definitely don't think Coburn is anything more than a number 4 on a team with crappy depth. I suppose Gustafsson enters the equation, but he has quite the ways to go before sneaking into a top 4 position.

I understand not wanting to move Schenn for a top 4 defenseman (and Giordano's a top 2) but no need at all? I have a feeling this year the Flyer fanbase will do the unthinkable and blame the goaltending if things don't go to well.
Yes, the Flyers try to be competitive, but they also try to rebuild, why else you think they would have traded two of their best players two years ago for young promising players and picks?

The Flyer's have already enough Top-4 D-Men in their roster right now. There is no need to discuss with you about that. Also we have three promising D prospects with at least Top-4 D potential.
Giordano is not that bad, but he is no exact need from a Flyer's POV. They need a #1D or one with #1 upside. Why should the Flyer's trade one of their valueable trade assets for another Top 4 D?

If there is no cromprehensible trade to be made for a (potential) #1D, I am OK with that too, there is no need to panic now. The Flyers should rather be patient and build around their youth, exactly what the Flames should do too.

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07-25-2013, 09:19 AM
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I would want a young D man coming back instead of forwards IMO.

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07-25-2013, 09:25 AM
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The trade is basically Glencross and Giordano for B. Schenn since Meszaros has little to no value. Not a chance the Flames make that move since they could get a lot more by dealing Glencross and Giordano separately.

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07-25-2013, 09:27 AM
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Fair enough on the first point about Schenn, but I think you're missing my reasoning for the retained salary. The Flames are also retaining salary in case you missed it. The Flyers retain 2.75M over 1 year while the Flames retain 3.06M over 3 years on Giordano's contract. In actual salary it's not much different.

The reasoning is with Pronger on the LTIR, they are going to be over the cap regardless (outside of a trade) this year. They wont be banking cap at all and any bonus earned will count towards next years cap. So if they have the ability to they might as well be spending as much as possible. There's enough cap space to use for a callup for minor injuries, but that's about it and not entirely different then the situation they are in now. With the creative accounting they pay a little bit more now but end up saving a bit and get a 1.02M savings for the next 2 years on Giordano's contract.
Bonus carryover isn't and shouldn't be a concern for Philly.

1. Next season they will have ~12M in cap space WITHOUT putting Pronger on LTIR OR factoring in any cap increases. They could have close to 20M in cap space next year.

2. Schenn has bonuses in his contract that are virtually impossible for him to attain. He must play all 82 games and skate 25 min/g. Not gonna happen. Once Schenn fails to attain his bonus the Flyers only have Couturiers 450k bonus to worry about.

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07-25-2013, 09:45 AM
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Really? A top 4 of Timonen, Schenn, Streit and Coburn seems pretty terrible for a team that is expecting to try and compete.

Timonen's a decent number 1 guy if his age doesn't catch up to him but at 38 he's bound to lose a step some time. Schenn seems like a number 3 guy. He could play on the top pairing but I wouldn't call him a number 2, at least yet. While Streit was already losing traction at the end of this year. He's 35, he might not bounce back from his injury so easily. If that's why he was playing like he was. And the Flyer management must see something different after that last contract but I definitely don't think Coburn is anything more than a number 4 on a team with crappy depth. I suppose Gustafsson enters the equation, but he has quite the ways to go before sneaking into a top 4 position.

I understand not wanting to move Schenn for a top 4 defenseman (and Giordano's a top 2) but no need at all? I have a feeling this year the Flyer fanbase will do the unthinkable and blame the goaltending if things don't go to well.
It's not great, but "terrible" is a bit over the top. And moving Schenn for Giordano doesn't change this team's outlook for the better at all.

And 2 things for the record, Giordano's a good defenseman who anyone can use and he plays on your top pair....but that doesn't make him fit the true "top pairing defenseman" desciption. Also, you're out of your mind if you think Coburn is just a #4 on a team with crappy depth.

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07-25-2013, 10:39 AM
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I'm pretty sure he would wait it to go to any other team, aside from maybe 2 others
Actually he has made it very clear he loves living in Western Canada and that's his priority. He might waive it for Edmonton, but I really don't think he wants to go East.

He signed a sweetheart deal with the Flames so he could stay in the area.

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07-25-2013, 10:41 AM
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Fair enough on the first point about Schenn, but I think you're missing my reasoning for the retained salary. The Flames are also retaining salary in case you missed it. The Flyers retain 2.75M over 1 year while the Flames retain 3.06M over 3 years on Giordano's contract. In actual salary it's not much different.

The reasoning is with Pronger on the LTIR, they are going to be over the cap regardless (outside of a trade) this year. They wont be banking cap at all and any bonus earned will count towards next years cap. So if they have the ability to they might as well be spending as much as possible. There's enough cap space to use for a callup for minor injuries, but that's about it and not entirely different then the situation they are in now. With the creative accounting they pay a little bit more now but end up saving a bit and get a 1.02M savings for the next 2 years on Giordano's contract.
With the retained salaries mentioned, it’s really a matter of perspective. In the long term, the Flyers would save an average of $310,000 over the next three years. But in the short term for the upcoming season, they would actually lose $1.75 million in cap space, which isn’t exactly an ideal scenario at the moment. And that doesn’t even factor in the additional space that they would lose on Glencross that they don’t even have right now.

Pronger won’t be placed on LTIR until the season begins, which gives the Flyers even less flexibility to consider an offer along these lines. As for bonuses earned this season, they would count against this year’s cap at the end of the season and any overages would be charged against next year’s cap.

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Old
07-25-2013, 10:53 AM
  #22
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Actually he has made it very clear he loves living in Western Canada and that's his priority. He might waive it for Edmonton, but I really don't think he wants to go East.

He signed a sweetheart deal with the Flames so he could stay in the area.
that doesnt mean anything if it means he has a shot at a cup and he won't be getting that in CGY over the next two seasons.

Maybe not this season, but next year in the last year of his contract, if a cup contender inquires about him, why would he stay in CGY?

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07-25-2013, 10:58 AM
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Bonus carryover isn't and shouldn't be a concern for Philly.

1. Next season they will have ~12M in cap space WITHOUT putting Pronger on LTIR OR factoring in any cap increases. They could have close to 20M in cap space next year.

2. Schenn has bonuses in his contract that are virtually impossible for him to attain. He must play all 82 games and skate 25 min/g. Not gonna happen. Once Schenn fails to attain his bonus the Flyers only have Couturiers 450k bonus to worry about.
Bonus carryover shouldn’t be a concern, but there is $5.9 million less to spend this summer with the cap drop and $183,000 in bonus overages from last year’s shortened season against this year’s cap. It might seem like small beans and wouldn’t be a concern if they were in better cap shape, but at this point it’s just another obstacle to make moves, as they currently have the least flexibility of any team with Pronger’s cap hit absorbing the majority of the permitted 10% offseason cap ceiling overage. Even if Schenn doesn’t reach some of his bonus incentives, they’re still likely to pay overages again next year given where things currently stand.

Pronger won’t be placed on LTIR until the season begins, which would get them close to $17 million in available space for next summer if there are no other changes. They will have at least nine roster spots to fill, the most significant and costly of which are finding a suitable replacement for Timonen and determining a starting goaltender. And that doesn’t even include renewing Schenn or Read. There are some big challenges ahead.


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07-25-2013, 11:15 AM
  #24
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Terrible for Calgary. Feaster hangs up and goes back to eating his salad.

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07-25-2013, 11:39 AM
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I'm pretty sure he would wait it to go to any other team, aside from maybe 2 others


Pretty sure you have no clue what your talking about.

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