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Byfuglien, Bogosian, Wheeler

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Old
07-25-2013, 01:18 PM
  #101
Mikeyg
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
well your right you can't. They are the only two dmen to outproduce him in the last three years. But no one's said Buff is THE best offensive defencemen so that seems fair.

We are talking about Offensive D men right? As in Ability to produce offence?

While buff is arguably top 3, and unequivocally top 5. Suter is not an offensive D man. He may be a better Defencemen then Byfuglien, but he's not a better Offensive D man then byfuglien.

Subban has been, for one season. Since he's trending in the right directioun you could MAYBE make that argument, but until he does it again (ie next year) it could be considered a fluke.

What i would consider fair value for Buff? Pretty much what brent Burns got.

under 25 top six forward/top 4 d

top 30 prospect ( i believe coyle was ranked in the top 20 at the time of the trade)

first round pick.
Well Ill just make it clear that the leafs dont want/cant fit buff on the team in anyway, but are you telling me that franson and a 1st and colborne is significantly more valuable then franson and a 1st? I just think that value is too high imo

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07-25-2013, 01:20 PM
  #102
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As I said earlier, you are just looking at 1 vantage point, if buff is so much better then letang, where is he on the norris voting? serious question
Because that's the vantage point that's being discussed by others - offensive d-man.

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07-25-2013, 01:22 PM
  #103
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Buff for Franson + 1st doesnt really make sense for either team so why even talk about whether the value is off or not.

Some Jets fans will overrate our players. Some think Buff is a fat POS. Most of us are somewhere in between.

Would I want Buff over Letang, Subban, Suter, etc? No. But is he better than them at creating offense alone? It's certainly arguable.

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07-25-2013, 02:09 PM
  #104
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Choice of Pitkanen or Gleason, Ruutu, Rask and/or Peters


To
Byfuglien


Thoughts?

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Old
07-25-2013, 02:36 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
Well Ill just make it clear that the leafs dont want/cant fit buff on the team in anyway, but are you telling me that franson and a 1st and colborne is significantly more valuable then franson and a 1st? I just think that value is too high imo

somethings missed here.

we have a very good comparable in the brent burns trade. a very high end offensive d man who gets traded.

he returned, a young top 6 forward (not necessarily one with toplinie potential) a top 30 prospect, and a 1st.

so i would also accept a young top 4 d man (though it would probably have to be a #4 and not a #3) in place of the top six forward.

i'll cook up an example under 3 assumptions:

The hockeys future list i'm going to use is gospel. They had coyle ranked as #18 at the time of that trade. So we will use a player HF ranks beween 15-25.


Winnipeg is committed to trading Buff

The team i choose to trade with is committed to acquiring Buff.

We will pay no attention to either team needs positionally.


so based off this, for dustin Byfuglien (edit) and a 2nd round pick in 2015 , in the above vaccume:





From St Louis:



Patrick Berglund (consistently 6th to 7th in TOI per game over the last four seasons on his team, and a .52 PPG production. Very Comparable to setoguch though i acknowledge higher defencive value. [To better clarify i would take whoever is deemed as the least valuable from St louis of Stewart, Berglund, Oshie, Steen, Backes, or Shattenkirk]

Jaden Schwarts (hockeys futures 18th ranked prospect - same coyle)

1st round pick (from a team expected to make conference final)


An alternate from a the NYR's



Carl Hagelin (Young top 6 forward with similar (.54 ppg) production to Setoguchi) who is not seen as a real possibility of becoming a first line producer.

Kris Kreider (19th ranked prospect by HF)

first round pick (from a team also expected to make conference final)



these three situations i feel are VERY comparable to the Burns to SJS deal.


Last edited by Grind: 07-25-2013 at 02:44 PM.
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Old
07-25-2013, 03:15 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
im not talking about liles, Ive had these people tell me that they would "CONSIDER" trading buff for nothing less of franson reilly and a 1st in the other 30 page thread a couple weeks ago. Havent you noticed in every winnipeg thread, they claim the player is "untouchable" or make some crazy evaluation on them? I certainly have.
Uhm because it would be pretty stupid to trade their top line RW which they are in desperate need of more. Someone on D could certainly move for them.

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07-25-2013, 04:39 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
somethings missed here.

we have a very good comparable in the brent burns trade. a very high end offensive d man who gets traded.

he returned, a young top 6 forward (not necessarily one with toplinie potential) a top 30 prospect, and a 1st.



these three situations i feel are VERY comparable to the Burns to SJS deal.
Why dont you make a proposal with the st louis one on here then and see what they say about it, not trolling. Im curious as to what they would say, I dont know enough about those players

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07-25-2013, 04:40 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
Uhm because it would be pretty stupid to trade their top line RW which they are in desperate need of more. Someone on D could certainly move for them.
I dont even know what your talking about...

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07-25-2013, 04:57 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
you clearly said MORE. How is that confusing to you, you said in caps MORE
Franson + 1st was the initial discussion. I agree that I did say he was worth more because, and the Burns trade is a perfect example, he is. No one mentioned Rielly but you.

I just don't know where to go with this.

1) You've been making stuff up
2) You don't know the spelling of your own top prospects name
3) You thought Buff's been playing defense for 5 years
4) Your main rebuttal to a post was to point out how many posts that user has (WTF!?)
5) You think that Buff's play is stagnant which could not be further from the truth
6) You keep trying to say that we said he was a top 3 D-man overall when EVERYONE was saying top 3 Offensive Defenseman
7) After ALL of that.....and after a page and a half of people flying airplanes through the holes in your logic, your one post to answer all of that is "K lets just level the playing field, this is getting out of hand now."

Amazing

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07-25-2013, 06:14 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Jets View Post
If you want similar value of the three players from other teams guys, I'd say Ryan McDonagh for Bogosian, Dustin Brown for Wheeler and Buff can be anywhere from a Carlson to a Kulikov.
This is not a good evaluation at all. You severely overstated values for Bogosian and Wheeler and understated value for the best of the three in Buff.

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07-25-2013, 06:18 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
hes worth more then letang? I like how you talk about things that people edited out,
LOL at point 2. you just argue because you like to listen to yourself talk, how about you give us a proposal big guy
Once again. You have posted nothing to refute the points that have been made. For someone who says they aren't trolling, you're trolling. Either add something to the conversation or quit.

As for myself making a proposal, I don't have one. Our biggest need (2nd line RW) was just filled with the addition of Seto. I would like to see how he fits in with Kane and Scheifele before we consider other avenues. Also we cannot lose Buff until we know that Trouba is ready to take over the 2nd line RD spot.

Out 2nd line LD spot is arguably in need of improvement but there is a chance that one of Buff, Bogo, or Trouba could slide into that spot. I am not in the business of throwing out wild trades. I like to look at my team and see what we could do to improve it.

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07-25-2013, 06:42 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
Once again. You have posted nothing to refute the points that have been made. For someone who says they aren't trolling, you're trolling. Either add something to the conversation or quit.

As for myself making a proposal, I don't have one. Our biggest need (2nd line RW) was just filled with the addition of Seto. I would like to see how he fits in with Kane and Scheifele before we consider other avenues. Also we cannot lose Buff until we know that Trouba is ready to take over the 2nd line RD spot.

Out 2nd line LD spot is arguably in need of improvement but there is a chance that one of Buff, Bogo, or Trouba could slide into that spot. I am not in the business of throwing out wild trades. I like to look at my team and see what we could do to improve it.
................... we arent talking about feasibility of your team we are talking about player WORTH. Make a buff proposal, im dying to see his value in your eyes, all you have said is "you're right, it would cost MORE, emphasis on caps then franson and a 1st, so lets hear it big guy

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07-25-2013, 06:46 PM
  #113
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Focus on this thread and let's be cordial to one another. Thank you.

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07-25-2013, 06:52 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
Why dont you make a proposal with the st louis one on here then and see what they say about it, not trolling. Im curious as to what they would say, I dont know enough about those players
what do you mean you don't know enough about those players? What more could you possibly need to know?

I gave very specific correlations to the pieces that make the case for the value, in relative toi for their team, and PPG. i can go pull corsi rel and zone starts for you if you want as well but i'm fairly certain listing their toi (usage by there team) and their points production would give you enough evidence that they are at the very least within the same ballpark as the historical context.



It is also important to note, Cody Franson and Colborn, do not qualify for this criteria. So your previous attempt at a proposal doesn't fit either and would need a significant upgrade in at least one spot (if fransons coming, the prospect has to be bette or if colborns coming, the player has to be better).

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07-25-2013, 06:56 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
................... we arent talking about feasibility of your team we are talking about player WORTH. Make a buff proposal, im dying to see his value in your eyes, all you have said is "you're right, it would cost MORE, emphasis on caps then franson and a 1st, so lets hear it big guy
Why?

I have no inclination to start comparing him to other players especially when his value is extremely high to Winnipeg at the moment. All you're trying to do is lure me into some trap so you can go "LOLOLOLOL LOOK AT WHAT THIS GUY THINKS" no matter what I post. I suggest you take a look at the last 2 pages to get a good idea of what people think about your posts. You've been trying to turn this forum against Winnipeg fans for a few weeks now and I would like to know why? Is it because we highly value someone who we view as a top 3 offensive defenseman? Someone who, as evident from past 3 seasons, has performed as one.

As I posted before, there are more examples of Toronto fans making outlandish trade proposals for 1 year of Phaneuf then we ever have in regards to Buff.

I've actually switched my tone in regards to your posts to try and get somewhat of a constructive conversation going yet you decide to keep turning this into a bait and switch where the endgame is trying to make me look like a fool.

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07-25-2013, 07:23 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
somethings missed here.

we have a very good comparable in the brent burns trade. a very high end offensive d man who gets traded.

he returned, a young top 6 forward (not necessarily one with toplinie potential) a top 30 prospect, and a 1st.

so i would also accept a young top 4 d man (though it would probably have to be a #4 and not a #3) in place of the top six forward.

i'll cook up an example under 3 assumptions:

The hockeys future list i'm going to use is gospel. They had coyle ranked as #18 at the time of that trade. So we will use a player HF ranks beween 15-25.


Winnipeg is committed to trading Buff

The team i choose to trade with is committed to acquiring Buff.

We will pay no attention to either team needs positionally.


so based off this, for dustin Byfuglien (edit) and a 2nd round pick in 2015 , in the above vaccume:





From St Louis:



Patrick Berglund (consistently 6th to 7th in TOI per game over the last four seasons on his team, and a .52 PPG production. Very Comparable to setoguch though i acknowledge higher defencive value. [To better clarify i would take whoever is deemed as the least valuable from St louis of Stewart, Berglund, Oshie, Steen, Backes, or Shattenkirk]

Jaden Schwarts (hockeys futures 18th ranked prospect - same coyle)

1st round pick (from a team expected to make conference final)


An alternate from a the NYR's



Carl Hagelin (Young top 6 forward with similar (.54 ppg) production to Setoguchi) who is not seen as a real possibility of becoming a first line producer.

Kris Kreider (19th ranked prospect by HF)

first round pick (from a team also expected to make conference final)



these three situations i feel are VERY comparable to the Burns to SJS deal.
I LOVE the deal with St. Louis. Get Chevy on the phone.

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07-25-2013, 07:27 PM
  #117
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I LOVE the deal with St. Louis. Get Chevy on the phone.
well considering St Louis has pietrangalo and shattenkirk as O d-men i find it highly unlikely they'd actually be interested in Buff, hence the whole vaccum scenario etc

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07-25-2013, 07:50 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
Franson + 1st was the initial discussion. I agree that I did say he was worth more because, and the Burns trade is a perfect example, he is. No one mentioned Rielly but you.

I just don't know where to go with this.

1) You've been making stuff up
2) You don't know the spelling of your own top prospects name
3) You thought Buff's been playing defense for 5 years
4) Your main rebuttal to a post was to point out how many posts that user has (WTF!?)
5) You think that Buff's play is stagnant which could not be further from the truth
6) You keep trying to say that we said he was a top 3 D-man overall when EVERYONE was saying top 3 Offensive Defenseman
7) After ALL of that.....and after a page and a half of people flying airplanes through the holes in your logic, your one post to answer all of that is "K lets just level the playing field, this is getting out of hand now."

Amazing
^This exactly, although you forgot he about the multiple spelling errors in everyone of his foolish reply's that aren't players names. He also said my opinion isn't valid because I only have 23 posts, I'm sorry I just joined lol.

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07-25-2013, 08:10 PM
  #119
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^This exactly, although you forgot he about the multiple spelling errors in everyone of his foolish reply's that aren't players names. He also said my opinion isn't valid because I only have 23 posts, I'm sorry I just joined lol.
It's all good. Spelling errors is one thing but now knowing your teams top prospects spelling is a little silly. It would be link me coming out and talking about how kick ass Evander Cane is going to be :p. Don't let this guy put you off. This site is filled with some really awesome members.

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07-25-2013, 08:12 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
what do you mean you don't know enough about those players? What more could you possibly need to know?

I gave very specific correlations to the pieces that make the case for the value, in relative toi for their team, and PPG. i can go pull corsi rel and zone starts for you if you want as well but i'm fairly certain listing their toi (usage by there team) and their points production would give you enough evidence that they are at the very least within the same ballpark as the historical context.



It is also important to note, Cody Franson and Colborn, do not qualify for this criteria. So your previous attempt at a proposal doesn't fit either and would need a significant upgrade in at least one spot (if fransons coming, the prospect has to be bette or if colborns coming, the player has to be better).
need st louis perspectives... its kinda sketch when only jets fans are liking that trade on here, I cant adequately comment on it because I dont follow the blues

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07-25-2013, 08:12 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Van View Post
^This exactly, although you forgot he about the multiple spelling errors in everyone of his foolish reply's that aren't players names. He also said my opinion isn't valid because I only have 23 posts, I'm sorry I just joined lol.
Apology denied. It was 22 at the time, attention to detail bud.

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07-25-2013, 08:16 PM
  #122
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Why?

I have no inclination to start comparing him to other players especially when his value is extremely high to Winnipeg at the moment. All you're trying to do is lure me into some trap so you can go "LOLOLOLOL LOOK AT WHAT THIS GUY THINKS" no matter what I post. I suggest you take a look at the last 2 pages to get a good idea of what people think about your posts. You've been trying to turn this forum against Winnipeg fans for a few weeks now and I would like to know why? Is it because we highly value someone who we view as a top 3 offensive defenseman? Someone who, as evident from past 3 seasons, has performed as one.

As I posted before, there are more examples of Toronto fans making outlandish trade proposals for 1 year of Phaneuf then we ever have in regards to Buff.

I've actually switched my tone in regards to your posts to try and get somewhat of a constructive conversation going yet you decide to keep turning this into a bait and switch where the endgame is trying to make me look like a fool.
So basically you tell me the existing proposal is undervalued but you cant give me an adequate one because you know that it would be laughable? Then you deflect about toronto posts again? Of what relevance is that to this situation where we are trying to determine buffs value but you continue to deflect and you just comment on me as a person each time? How about we get to some actual value for once besides this OMG HES WORTH SO MUCH TO THE JETS. We have established that you sean strongly believe that he is worth "MORE" then franson and a 1st, so what is it then

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07-25-2013, 08:22 PM
  #123
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Hilarious how this guy is still going on about a proposal he flat out lied about. Go read some thread that have been started by your fellow fans, I don't think he grasp the concept of all team overvalue their players.

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07-25-2013, 08:24 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
So basically you tell me the existing proposal is undervalued but you cant give me an adequate one because you know that it would be laughable? Then you deflect about toronto posts again? Of what relevance is that to this situation where we are trying to determine buffs value but you continue to deflect and you just comment on me as a person each time? How about we get to some actual value for once besides this OMG HES WORTH SO MUCH TO THE JETS. We have established that you sean strongly believe that he is worth "MORE" then franson and a 1st, so what is it then
The existing proposal was in the other thread. You keep bringing it up like it was a personal insult to you.

Which post did I deflect about Toronto? I am more than willing to address it.

If you ABOSOLUTELY must know what i think his value is, I would put it at a Top 6 Forward, a Top 4 D, and a 1st to 2nd Round pick depending on the value of the players provided. Feel free to insert whatever players you think fit that scenario. What would you put Phaneuf's value at?

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07-25-2013, 08:26 PM
  #125
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Hilarious how this guy is still going on about a proposal he flat out lied about. Go read some thread that have been started by your fellow fans, I don't think he grasp the concept of all team overvalue their players.
I would say the most frustrating part is that he keeps pointing fingers at people while being wrong time and time again. That being said, it's been interesting .

There is an entire page of posts showing him exactly where he's been wrong and he just replied with "ok ok hold on lets flip the page here and make it more fair"

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