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Worst goalie during the playoff streak?

View Poll Results: Worst Red Wings goalie during playoff streak?
Tim Cheveldae 34 28.10%
Chris Osgood 9 7.44%
Mike Vernon 0 0%
Dominik Hasek 4 3.31%
Curtis Joseph 15 12.40%
Manny Legace 57 47.11%
Jimmy Howard 2 1.65%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-22-2013, 04:09 PM
  #126
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07-22-2013, 04:17 PM
  #127
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IDK why Cujo gets flak, but this town mercilessly hard on goalies (not Montreal bad, but not that far removed). He had a team that did nothing in front of him, and the offensive strategy basically consisted of taking perimeter shots all game long. I thought Holland's treatment of Cujo was fairly shameful for a pro athlete, Ozzie's wasn't much better when he was waived.
I feel bad for what happened to Cujo here, but he was certainly well compensated for all the grief he took and he sold out his home market to make it happen. I wish it would have gone better, but the beginning of the end wasn't just Hasek arrival but the rather famous practice fight with Yzerman. Keep in mind as upsetting as that situation was, he had some problems with teammates as well. That whole situation was mishandled, but by everyone involved Cujo included in that as far as some of the professionalism stories that were leaking at the time.

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07-22-2013, 05:05 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
I feel bad for what happened to Cujo here, but he was certainly well compensated for all the grief he took and he sold out his home market to make it happen. I wish it would have gone better, but the beginning of the end wasn't just Hasek arrival but the rather famous practice fight with Yzerman. Keep in mind as upsetting as that situation was, he had some problems with teammates as well. That whole situation was mishandled, but by everyone involved Cujo included in that as far as some of the professionalism stories that were leaking at the time.
Feels kind of strange to think of Ken Holland being cutthroat with letting a player go these days, doesn't it?

I'm sure the salary cap has something to do with it. And perhaps Holland being a trained goalie made him less forgiving to any errors he could more easily see. I'm always surprised how many high end hockey minds don't take the time to really learn the nuances of the position other than, "Did he stop it? Good."

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07-22-2013, 05:22 PM
  #129
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What was the deal with Yzerman and Joseph?

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07-22-2013, 05:40 PM
  #130
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What was the deal with Yzerman and Joseph?
I tried to google it, but the main hit was this thread. Of course not much stuff still exists from that era in internet history.

I did find an article which suggests Lindros was the obvious trade chip for Cujo.
http://a.espncdn.com/nhl/columns/hradek_ej/1579385.html

Also some fun stuff in there about the Fedorov situtation.

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07-22-2013, 05:52 PM
  #131
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What was the deal with Yzerman and Joseph?
I don't remember hearing anything about this. Search engines aren't shedding any light either

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07-22-2013, 06:01 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
I feel bad for what happened to Cujo here, but he was certainly well compensated for all the grief he took and he sold out his home market to make it happen. I wish it would have gone better, but the beginning of the end wasn't just Hasek arrival but the rather famous practice fight with Yzerman. Keep in mind as upsetting as that situation was, he had some problems with teammates as well. That whole situation was mishandled, but by everyone involved Cujo included in that as far as some of the professionalism stories that were leaking at the time.
Cujo was the consummate pro.
Stories about his "professionalism," if they existed, were likely leaked by management trying to cover their ass after badly mishandling the entire situation

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07-22-2013, 07:45 PM
  #133
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I don't remember any rumors about an Yzerman/Joseph altercation either

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07-22-2013, 11:39 PM
  #134
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I remember hearing rumors of Joseph wearing his jersey inside-out at a practice. Any truth to that?

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07-22-2013, 11:45 PM
  #135
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I remember hearing rumors of Joseph wearing his jersey inside-out at a practice. Any truth to that?
This would be the story, doesn't really show up much anymore. But Cujo came out to practice with his jersey inside out as a show of displeasure with what was going on. Jim Bedard and him started arguing and Yzerman told him to turn it the right way and honor the club and the people that played for it and just how disrespectful it was. When it didn't happen the rumor was Yzerman came to blows with him essentially losing it on him for disrespecting the Red Wings. Morning skate stunt gone very wrong.

Was talked about a lot when it went down, is old enough it is hard to come up with now as Bench was alluding to, but I remember hearing quite a bit about it and the rumor running wild in Detroit and never being refuted.

I don't like how the Cujo thing played out and have said that several times in the past. He is by all accounts a good man and he was put in an impossible position. But it wasn't like there weren't rumors of discourse either while this thing was playing out.


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07-23-2013, 01:34 AM
  #136
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Nothing yet about Yzerman.
There was a toledo blade reference about Cujo and Bedard
http://www.toledoblade.com/Pro/2004/...t-in-time.html


and then this, referencing an SI article
http://www.nhl-tribute.de/index.php?topic=2421.165

JOSEPH INCIDENT: In an article about the Wings' goaltending situation, Sports Illustrated reports this week did Curtis Joseph overexpressed his feelings about being pushed aside for Dominik Hasek by wearing his sweater inside out at practice optional morning skate on Nov. 15 at Minnesota. After a heated exchange with goaltending coach Jim Bedard, he "acceded to assistant coach Joe Kocur's demand did he wear the jersey properly." "Curtis joked with me that hey what trying to get the crest closer to his heart," forward Brendan Shanahan tells SI. "If that's the worst thing he did to show frustration, well, let's not get too caught up I think he Regretted it afterward, but we all cut him some slack." SI reports the incident "Basically what forgotten within a day," and on his way up from the minors Dec. 9, Joseph had an epiphany. "I Need A Certain demeanor, Certain feelings, to play well," Joseph tells SI. "Anger Is not one of them."

Seems like Kocur was part of it.

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07-23-2013, 01:36 AM
  #137
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There's no way Yzerman and Cujo came to blows --
This was 2003-04 -- not 1997.
If people were talking about it everywhere, there'd be tons of stuff about it on the internet still.

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07-25-2013, 09:01 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Didn't Bowman recommend Barry Smith?
Yes.

Devellano was good friends with Lewis (going back to the Islander days) and him and Holland choose Lewis over Smith. Bowman was good friends with Smith and wanted him to take over as head coach after the 97 season. Devellano and him clashed over it, then the limo accident occurred and Scotty decided to come back. There was all kinds of rumblings behind closed doors that Bowman and Devellano did not get along. Scotty was the one that went to Ilitch and told him to match the Carolina offer sheet for Fedorov. He did not want draft picks for a team that was in "win now" mode.

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07-26-2013, 01:51 AM
  #139
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I used to hang out in a group that included Lewis' daughter (before, during, and after his hire as head coach). Mostly nice girl, not trying to slander the Lewis name, but.... the sense of entitlement that ran in that family was over the top. I don't think it served them well. It's known that Lewis was too easy on his players, and that that was a large part of his failure, but there was more to it than that. Great assistant/associate coach, but it should have been clear to the brass that he wasn't going to make a good head coach. Should have been Smith.

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07-26-2013, 02:06 AM
  #140
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I used to hang out in a group that included Lewis' daughter (before, during, and after his hire as head coach). Mostly nice girl, not trying to slander the Lewis name, but.... the sense of entitlement that ran in that family was over the top. I don't think it served them well. It's known that Lewis was too easy on his players, and that that was a large part of his failure, but there was more to it than that. Great assistant/associate coach, but it should have been clear to the brass that he wasn't going to make a good head coach. Should have been Smith.
Neither guy should have been the choice. That was really a part of the problem, great assistants but no need for either to take on the real head job, something that was thankfully corrected shortly.

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07-26-2013, 10:16 AM
  #141
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Essensa was their big acquisition that year, he was supposed to finally give us a goalie that we could compete in the playoffs with and Osgood was a rookie.
He was benched after the first game of the series after a terrible game. Osgood came in won the next 2 and then he screwed up playing the puck in the 4th for the Shark's GWG and Essensa got the start in the 6th and stunk up the joint. The GWG goal in that came was a weak slap shot glove side from the point by a rookie Czech defenseman (name escapes me now), that would have been an easy save for any peewee goalie.
Essensa was a Wing KILLER. He was Bryz in the early 90's - looked amazing with an awful Winnipeg team, then goes to the Wings and poo-poos all over the place. What a disappointment.

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07-26-2013, 10:37 AM
  #142
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Neither guy should have been the choice. That was really a part of the problem, great assistants but no need for either to take on the real head job, something that was thankfully corrected shortly.
We'll never know for sure, Smith may very well have failed as well. Or he may not have. Either way, I think he would have been a better choice than Lewis (I thought that at the time of the hire as well).

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07-26-2013, 10:57 AM
  #143
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Yes.

Devellano was good friends with Lewis (going back to the Islander days) and him and Holland choose Lewis over Smith. Bowman was good friends with Smith and wanted him to take over as head coach after the 97 season. Devellano and him clashed over it, then the limo accident occurred and Scotty decided to come back. There was all kinds of rumblings behind closed doors that Bowman and Devellano did not get along. Scotty was the one that went to Ilitch and told him to match the Carolina offer sheet for Fedorov. He did not want draft picks for a team that was in "win now" mode.
There were two camps;
The Jimmy D/Ken Holland Camp
The Bowman Camp.

Jimmy D didn't want Bowman in here as coach but Ilitch forced it. Jimmy D didn't want Bowman as GM, but Bowman went around Jimmy D and became GM.

Finally, a few years later, Jimmy D talked Mike Ilitch into making Holland the GM and Bowman the coach

And when Bowman left, he lobbied hard for Smith. Holland lobbied for Lewis. Jimmy D and Mike Ilitch came out in favor of Holland.

Bowman lost.

There's a decent section on it in Bowman's autobiography.

I definitely supported Bowman's choice. But I wound up meeting Smith a short time later. Guy is a jerk.

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07-26-2013, 12:06 PM
  #144
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I definitely supported Bowman's choice. But I wound up meeting Smith a short time later. Guy is a jerk.
Another reason he probably would have made a better coach than Lewis Babcock's a jerk too, after all.

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07-26-2013, 12:22 PM
  #145
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Another reason he probably would have made a better coach than Lewis Babcock's a jerk too, after all.
But Babcock is comfy in his own skin. He's arrogant and fairly articulate. Smith mumbles and he's just not very personable. He might have been a great coach, but I wonder if he could have been able to handle the media and PR aspects of the job

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07-26-2013, 12:29 PM
  #146
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But Babcock is comfy in his own skin. He's arrogant and fairly articulate. Smith mumbles and he's just not very personable. He might have been a great coach, but I wonder if he could have been able to handle the media and PR aspects of the job
I don't know. We'll never know. Instead, we're stuck with the memory of 2 years of Lewis

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07-26-2013, 12:51 PM
  #147
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Jimmy D didn't want Bowman in here as coach but Ilitch forced it. Jimmy D didn't want Bowman as GM, but Bowman went around Jimmy D and became GM.
Which is funny because Devallano (in his autobiography) claimed that he recommended Bowman to Ilitch in 1993. At the time, Ilitch wanted to go after Mike Keenan.

JimmyD/Holland and Scotty get all the credit for those 90's Wings teams but I think Bryan Murray deserves some credit as well. He drafted some key players while he was GM in the early 90's.

1990 draft
Keith Primeau (used in trade for Shanahan)
Vyacheslav Kozlov
1991 draft
Martin Lapointe
Chris Osgood
1992 draft
Darren McCarty
1993 draft
Anders Eriksson (used in trade for Chelios)

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07-26-2013, 02:20 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
There were two camps;
The Jimmy D/Ken Holland Camp
The Bowman Camp.

Jimmy D didn't want Bowman in here as coach but Ilitch forced it. Jimmy D didn't want Bowman as GM, but Bowman went around Jimmy D and became GM.

Finally, a few years later, Jimmy D talked Mike Ilitch into making Holland the GM and Bowman the coach

And when Bowman left, he lobbied hard for Smith. Holland lobbied for Lewis. Jimmy D and Mike Ilitch came out in favor of Holland.

Bowman lost.

There's a decent section on it in Bowman's autobiography.

I definitely supported Bowman's choice. But I wound up meeting Smith a short time later. Guy is a jerk.
Bowman shared that GM role in triumvirate from 94-95 on. They never trusted Bowman with full autonomy in the front office, the idea that it ever took place is dubious and not supported in titles or anything we know about the organization. It's the Bowman crowd going a little crazy. Great coach, but rightfully checked in power in the management area.

Bowman went to one team that wasn't already great after St. Louis (where he had a GM role and wasn't trusted with the front office) and that was Buffalo where he was given full autonomy. While his players were aging he never showed the kind of front office management many of his fans around here think he did. He couldn't figure out how to get over the hump and his performance was mixed especially in terms of his second hat that he wore as a GM.

I supported Smith over Lewis. In part because it was a coaching knowledge decision and his input should have been valued there. As pointed out Jimmy D remained very powerful throughout his stay although his original choice "Captain Hook" Keenan did in fact lose out to Bowman something we should all be thankful for. Although there seems to be some mix up on how involved report this, but I think he compiled a list for Ilitch and Bowman won the job.

But it's a little tiring to hear about Bowman the titan GM. He has a history of going to organizations that have the pieces in place. He is a great coach, but the credit he gets in the front office is a bit extreme.

The reason Holland won out and got the full GM gig was the work he had done as a senior scout and his role in the three-headed monster. Is it likely to think Holland just lucked into this or that he was so impressive in that role and the ideas he offered up that he was given full power?

Bowman in my opinion lost considerable say more than likely when he attempted to trade the Ilitch's basically adoptive son in Yzerman, that for me was the beginning of the end of what say he had in personnel. Sure he was consulted, just like Babcock is consulted, but make no mistake even the move he is most often credit with in Shanahan was pushed for hard by Holland by almost all accounts of the trade. If Bowman acted as the lone force in that why was he stripped of his GM powers directly afterwards, why did Holland ascend into the role by himself? A lot of the Bowman did everything especially in terms of the front office just doesn't scan whatsoever when you give it deeper thought.


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07-26-2013, 03:06 PM
  #149
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Vernon was starter in two playoff years for Detroit, getting us to the finals twice, winning once.
Osgood, for whatever reason, also seemed to have lots of trouble with the Colorado avalanche his first time here.

Ozzie vs Roy never worked out well for us.
Vernon vs Roy did. Hasek vs Roy did.
Osgood was healthy for one series vs. Colorado. It was his fourth playoff series in his career.

In that series, these were the Wings' top scorers:

PlayerGPG-A-Pts
Sergei Fedorov61-8-9
Paul Coffey43-2-5
Doug Brown42-2-4
Igor Larionov62-1-3
Dino Ciccarelli62-1-3
Nicklas Lidstrom62-1-3
Slava Kozlov61-2-3
Steve Yzerman50-3-3
Vladimir Konstantinov61-1-2
Keith Primeau50-1-1
Slava Fetisov60-1-1

Osgood wasn't at his best, in part because of an epic run by Sakic and excellent runs by the other Avs scorers. But the 1996 series can hardly be blamed on him alone. And the 1997 series or playoff was hardly "Vernon carrying the Wings".

Roy had an excellent 1996 series, and did very well in 1999 as well. But historically, he often had problems with the Wings. So a better argument would be that Colorado was a high-powered scoring team that significantly improved its goal-prevention with the Roy trade and was better than the 62-win Detroit team; had they made that same trade at the beginning of the season (they were reportedly trying to acquire him since before they relocated, and his "meltdown" dropped the price significantly) it's possible they would have had a better record than Detroit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
There were two camps;
The Jimmy D/Ken Holland Camp
The Bowman Camp.

Jimmy D didn't want Bowman in here as coach but Ilitch forced it. Jimmy D didn't want Bowman as GM, but Bowman went around Jimmy D and became GM.

Finally, a few years later, Jimmy D talked Mike Ilitch into making Holland the GM and Bowman the coach

And when Bowman left, he lobbied hard for Smith. Holland lobbied for Lewis. Jimmy D and Mike Ilitch came out in favor of Holland.

Bowman lost.

There's a decent section on it in Bowman's autobiography.

I definitely supported Bowman's choice. But I wound up meeting Smith a short time later. Guy is a jerk.
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Which is funny because Devallano (in his autobiography) claimed that he recommended Bowman to Ilitch in 1993. At the time, Ilitch wanted to go after Mike Keenan.
Devellano preferred Al Arbour, but his second choice was Bowman. I thought this was common knowledge.

Quote:
JimmyD/Holland and Scotty get all the credit for those 90's Wings teams but I think Bryan Murray deserves some credit as well. He drafted some key players while he was GM in the early 90's.

1990 draft
Keith Primeau (used in trade for Shanahan)
Vyacheslav Kozlov
Murray was hired after the 1990 draft. When Devellano was GM (both before and after Murray) Holland (as head scout, and later as AGM) largely ran the draft. Murray didn't operate the same way, taking a much more hands-on approach. A highly notable part of this is the approach to drafting Europeans (most notably Russians; check the Wings' draft record on Euros compared to with Murray).

Also, "used in trade for Shanahan" in an attempt to give Murray credit for the Shanahan trade is silly. It's like saying Devellano is responsible for acquiring Paul Coffey because he drafted Joe Murphy, Petr Klima, and Adam Graves.

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07-26-2013, 03:30 PM
  #150
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Osgood was healthy for one series vs. Colorado. It was his fourth playoff series in his career.
Ozzie was 0-for-3 against Colorado.
It's the way it is.
Colorado was our main rival.

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