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The Out of Town Thread part LXVI - All Talk From Around the League Here

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Old
07-25-2013, 06:18 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Is that an E5 there Eck? Indications are its business as usual with Halak and Elliot next year, Allen has a 2way deal.
They don't really have a choice, not like you can trade or sent down halak. He's still one of the best back up goaltenders in the league

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07-25-2013, 07:44 PM
  #177
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No doubt. But DD has had better numbers in the NHL.
Desharnais once had better numbers than Gagne, and was 25 when he posted that number - 4 years older than Gagne at the time, and still 2 years older than Gagne is right now.

Seriously, just stop.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 07-25-2013 at 08:13 PM.
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07-25-2013, 07:45 PM
  #178
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Yeah, it probably is more...
You're probably right... :nosarcasm:

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07-25-2013, 07:46 PM
  #179
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is it hockey season yet?

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07-25-2013, 07:52 PM
  #180
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is it hockey season yet?
Wake me up when September ends.

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07-25-2013, 08:08 PM
  #181
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Wake me up when September ends.
sooner, pre season is alot of fun

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07-25-2013, 08:09 PM
  #182
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sooner, pre season is alot of fun
And there's my birthday in September, you're right.

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07-25-2013, 08:11 PM
  #183
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I think he's worth 1.3 more than DD, but I also feel like DD should be paid about a million less

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07-25-2013, 08:40 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Desharnais once had better numbers than Gagne, and was 25 when he posted that number - 4 years older than Gagne at the time, and still 2 years older than Gagne is right now.

Seriously, just stop.
Maybe you should read back and find out what I'm actually saying. I never said DD was better than Gagner. I said that Gagner is grossly over paid for what he's done and makes DD's contract palatable by comparison.


Last edited by overlords: 07-25-2013 at 11:40 PM.
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07-25-2013, 11:11 PM
  #185
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Maybe you should read back and find out what I'm actually saying. I never said DD was better than Gagner. I said that Gagner is grossly over paid for what he's done and makes DD's contract palatable by comparison.
Gagner is worth double whatever DD is worth, whichever salary we're using for comparison. Easily. In the end you have to pay for talent as well as production, and Gagner has more talent in his shin pads than DD has on his best day. If you want to talk about "palatable", I'm sure the same team that locked Eberle up long term for $6 million/year thinks the next 3 years of Gagner is easily worth $4.8 million per.

He has developed into a 1st line, 19/20 min/night generator, whose production has been very consistent on bad teams and is trending upward. The off-ice training that he did last year has done wonders for his skating, balance, and ability to battle for pucks. All of that contributes to far, FAR greater value for cap investment than DD, a passenger with a decreasing role and inconsistent production. Put another way, as it already has been multiple times, Gagner in DD's role would still be brilliant, while DD in Gagner's role would be rubbish. And Gagner appears to be improving while DD is... DD - someone who we're hoping can simply "bounce back", let alone actually improve on the best we've seen to date.

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
if you think Gagner is worth $4.8 million per, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I personally would think someone who thought Gagner and his career high 49 points, soft play and diminutive size and play was worth that much money is an idiot, but again that's just my opinion.


Listen, it's becoming increasingly apparently that you're not familiar enough with Gagner, or the Oilers in general. All I can suggest, is to watch more Oilers games and brush up on patterns of player worth on a wider scale than simply Canadiens comparisons. And since when is 5'11" and almost 200 lbs "diminutive", whatever his level of physicality?


Last edited by overlords: 07-25-2013 at 11:39 PM.
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07-25-2013, 11:47 PM
  #186
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I agree that he's worth that but keep in mind, Gagner won't be their best centre for long (this season I'm wagering) and he isn't a good "tough minutes" or defensive duties 2nd line centre. He's soft as butter.

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Old
07-25-2013, 11:55 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Gagner is worth double whatever DD is worth, whichever salary we're using for comparison. Easily. In the end you have to pay for talent as well as production, and Gagner has more talent in his shin pads than DD has on his best day. If you want to talk about "palatable", I'm sure the same team that locked Eberle up long term for $6 million/year thinks the next 3 years of Gagner is easily worth $4.8 million per.

He has developed into a 1st line, 19/20 min/night generator, whose production has been very consistent on bad teams and is trending upward. The off-ice training that he did last year has done wonders for his skating, balance, and ability to battle for pucks. All of that contributes to far, FAR greater value for cap investment than DD, a passenger with a decreasing role and inconsistent production. Put another way, as it already has been multiple times, Gagner in DD's role would still be brilliant, while DD in Gagner's role would be rubbish. And Gagner appears to be improving while DD is... DD - someone who we're hoping can simply "bounce back", let alone actually improve on the best we've seen to date.
I'm as weary of DD as anyone, but, man, you sure make Sam Gagner sound like an absolute Monster with the effusive praise you've lathered over him.

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07-26-2013, 12:45 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by jedimyrmidon View Post
I'm as weary of DD as anyone, but, man, you sure make Sam Gagner sound like an absolute Monster with the effusive praise you've lathered over him.
We're comparing him, a former top 10 overall pick 1st liner with a pattern of consistency and improvement, to Desharnais... NOT a former 1st round pick, NOT a 1st line forward, one season to hang his hat on, and on the downswing (both in production and importance to his team). How close is this going to be no matter WHO we're comparing across the league??

I haven't "praised" Gagner in any way, actually. We haven't even begun to compare him to other 1st liners around the league, for example, and there's no need in this particular case anyway.

But if I really wanted to, I'd start with this performance against the Blackhawks in 2012:



Maybe someone around here thinks DD is the kind of guy who has 8 point nights in him where he is voted 1st, 2nd, AND 3rd star of the game?

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07-26-2013, 01:24 AM
  #189
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Kovalev had all the talent in the world and he wasn't elite. Jan Bulis also scored 4 goals in a game. It shouldn't be brought up for an argument on how talented a player is.

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07-26-2013, 07:13 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Gagner is worth double whatever DD is worth, whichever salary we're using for comparison. Easily. In the end you have to pay for talent as well as production, and Gagner has more talent in his shin pads than DD has on his best day. If you want to talk about "palatable", I'm sure the same team that locked Eberle up long term for $6 million/year thinks the next 3 years of Gagner is easily worth $4.8 million per.

He has developed into a 1st line, 19/20 min/night generator, whose production has been very consistent on bad teams and is trending upward. The off-ice training that he did last year has done wonders for his skating, balance, and ability to battle for pucks. All of that contributes to far, FAR greater value for cap investment than DD, a passenger with a decreasing role and inconsistent production. Put another way, as it already has been multiple times, Gagner in DD's role would still be brilliant, while DD in Gagner's role would be rubbish. And Gagner appears to be improving while DD is... DD - someone who we're hoping can simply "bounce back", let alone actually improve on the best we've seen to date.





Listen, it's becoming increasingly apparently that you're not familiar enough with Gagner, or the Oilers in general. All I can suggest, is to watch more Oilers games and brush up on patterns of player worth on a wider scale than simply Canadiens comparisons. And since when is 5'11" and almost 200 lbs "diminutive", whatever his level of physicality?
If Gagner is so friggen talented why has he failed in so many opportunities to produce. You say he has 3x the talent of Desharnais and he's been getting prime NHL ice time pretty much from day 1 and his numbers are STILL below DD.

So what you're saying is if you're talented and still an underachiever you should still get huge money...interesting...let's go pay Filatov 4 years and 26 mil

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07-26-2013, 07:55 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
If Gagner is so friggen talented why has he failed in so many opportunities to produce.
Same reason Eberle only had 37 points. Same reason RNH only had 24 points. Guys like that can't be expected to carry the play 180 feet all night in order to create offense. When they get more/better puck movement from the blueline, spreading out neutral and offensive zone coverages, they'll all start scoring more. They haven't had a PK or Markov to work with recently, which I think you've failed to notice.

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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
You say he has 3x the talent of Desharnais and he's been getting prime NHL ice time pretty much from day 1 and his numbers are STILL below DD.
Still?!?

Career points: Gagne 258, Desharnais 111
Last year: Gagne 38, Desharnais 28

Still?!?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
So what you're saying is if you're talented and still an underachiever you should still get huge money...interesting...let's go pay Filatov 4 years and 26 mil
The Oilers are obviously projecting better fortunes for him over the next 3 years than you are, as evidenced by the steps he took this year which factored into him earning that contract. Take your strawman elsewhere.

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07-26-2013, 08:36 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Same reason Eberle only had 37 points. Same reason RNH only had 24 points. Guys like that can't be expected to carry the play 180 feet all night in order to create offense. When they get more/better puck movement from the blueline, spreading out neutral and offensive zone coverages, they'll all start scoring more. They haven't had a PK or Markov to work with recently, which I think you've failed to notice.



Still?!?

Career points: Gagne 258, Desharnais 111
Last year: Gagne 38, Desharnais 28

Still?!?




The Oilers are obviously projecting better fortunes for him over the next 3 years than you are, as evidenced by the steps he took this year which factored into him earning that contract. Take your strawman elsewhere.
You're really good at making excuses for Gagner and insist how good he can be when it's blatantly obvious to anyone who has seen him play and seen his production that the results just aren't there. The Oilers can project all they want but a bad contract is a bad contract is a bad contract.

You can have all the talent in the world but at the end of the day you get paid to produce. Paying for potential talent only lasts for so long before the realisation comes that that player won't or hasn't played to their potential. Gagner has been in prime position and given ample playing time to produce to his "potential" and unlike Eberle or Hall, he has NOT risen to the occasion yet he's being paid like he has.

I don't have to watch him every game to see that he under performs his teammates in point production even though he is given the most playing time. He's a career -47 and has mediocre point production. As for your comparisons to DD, that’s not what I’m arguing. Again, I never said DD is a better player even though he has in fact, had better results. I said Gagner’s contract makes DD’s more palatable than before because Gagner is so grossly overpaid and not worth the $4.8 MM. If you think paying for all that “potential” for a guy who’s’ never put up more than 49 points and is a -47 player, fine. Trying to convince others that you’re correct in thinking that, well good luck.

Frankly, unless you're related, I don't see how you can defend Gagner to the extent that you are. There is enough data and time to point to the fact that he's an underachiever who hasn't played to his potential yet is played like he has. He makes more than Patches for goodness sake! Who are you trying to convince exactly?

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07-26-2013, 08:37 AM
  #193
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Dd received top pp time and received our best wingers last two seasons.. Lets not talk like he was given less of a chance to succeed than gagner

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07-26-2013, 08:38 AM
  #194
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Dd received top pp time and received our best wingers last two seasons.. Lets not talk like he was given less of a chance to succeed than gagner
Precisely.

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07-26-2013, 08:52 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Dd received top pp time and received our best wingers last two seasons.. Lets not talk like he was given less of a chance to succeed than gagner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Precisely.
Never said that. I said DD put up the numbers when given the opportunity. Something Gagner has NOT in the years he's been with the Oil.

Again, this isn't a DD vs. Gagner debate as you would like to make it. It's a Gagner is over paid debate, which is pretty obvious that he is.

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07-26-2013, 08:59 AM
  #196
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You're really good at making excuses for Gagner and insist how good he can be when it's blatantly obvious to anyone who has seen him play and seen his production that the results just aren't there. The Oilers can project all they want but a bad contract is a bad contract is a bad contract.
It's blatantly obvious to anyone who has seen them play that he out-produced RNH AND Eberle (and Yakupov) last year...

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You can have all the talent in the world but at the end of the day you get paid to produce. Paying for potential talent only lasts for so long before the realisation comes that that player won't or hasn't played to their potential.
And that realization usually takes the entirety of a player's development during their RFA years - of which Gagner has multiple remaining - to make that determination. And he's carrying a significant amount of his team's offensive load while improving, so... where are you coming from and where are you trying to go with this??

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Gagner has been in prime position and given ample playing time to produce to his "potential" and unlike Eberle or Hall, he has NOT risen to the occasion yet he's being paid like he has.
"Prime position" is relative, and again you're showing very little familiarity with the Oilers over the past 5 or so seasons. Last year he out-produced Eberle and RNH. The year before he still out-produced a veteran Hemsky on a $4.1 million contract and finished just a handful of points behind RNH and Hall. The year before that he was only one point behind team-leading Eberle, tied with Hall and Hemsky. The year before that he led every Oiler except Penner in scoring, despite only playing 60-some games. Relative to his teammates, that's a pretty decent pattern of production for a guy who is, just now, 23 years old.

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I don't have to watch him every game
Perhaps not, but you certainly have to watch him, and the Oilers, a LOT more.

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to see that he under performs his teammates in point production even though he is given the most playing time. He's a career -47 and has mediocre point production.
Yeah, well, I've already shown that you're out to lunch coming at it from this direction.

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
As for your comparisons to DD, that’s not what I’m arguing. Again, I never said DD is a better player even though he has in fact, had better results.
He has, in fact, had A better result. Once. And purely statistically at that, while enjoying all the opportunity/ice time advantages that Gagner had, only on a better team. And was demonstrably a much worse player at the time of signing/extension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I said Gagner’s contract makes DD’s more palatable than before because Gagner is so grossly overpaid and not worth the $4.8 MM. If you think paying for all that “potential” for a guy who’s’ never put up more than 49 points and is a -47 player, fine. Trying to convince others that you’re correct in thinking that, well good luck.
Even if I don't think Gagner is quite worth $4.8 million, it's a struggle to determine exactly how much less he "should" get. But ultimately I don't have to convince anyone. He already has the contract and is twice the player you're choosing to compare him to, who isn't getting paid much less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Frankly, unless you're related, I don't see how you can defend Gagner to the extent that you are. There is enough data and time to point to the fact that he's an underachiever who hasn't played to his potential yet is played like he has. He makes more than Patches for goodness sake! Who are you trying to convince exactly?
At this point, I'm content to simply convince anyone reading that you have no idea what you're talking about. It has little to do with Gagner and Desharnais specifically, although they are the subjects of this comparison.

Regarding your addition of the Patches strawman to the already existing Filatov one, I encourage you to go around the league and put every player in order according to what you think their "worth" is. Enjoy having your head explode when you realize that there isn't a linear assessment of "worth", nor a league-wide compensation scheme that exactly matches it.

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07-26-2013, 09:05 AM
  #197
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Only on the Habs board would people debate Desharnais vs Gagner.

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07-26-2013, 09:08 AM
  #198
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Same reason Eberle only had 37 points. Same reason RNH only had 24 points. Guys like that can't be expected to carry the play 180 feet all night in order to create offense. When they get more/better puck movement from the blueline, spreading out neutral and offensive zone coverages, they'll all start scoring more. They haven't had a PK or Markov to work with recently, which I think you've failed to notice.



Still?!?

Career points: Gagne 258, Desharnais 111
Last year: Gagne 38, Desharnais 28

Still?!?




The Oilers are obviously projecting better fortunes for him over the next 3 years than you are, as evidenced by the steps he took this year which factored into him earning that contract. Take your strawman elsewhere.
You can make all the excuses you want, Gagner has not been very productive for all the opportunities he was gived as a result of being an early pick. DD on the contrary had to force his way in being only an undrafted FA. he had to EARN his chances.

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07-26-2013, 09:10 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
You can make all the excuses you want, Gagner has not been very productive for all the opportunities he was gived as a result of being an early pick. DD on the contrary had to force his way in being only an undrafted FA. he had to EARN his chances.
Relative to whom, exactly? And where/what are the "excuses" you're talking about? Where you say "forced", I say "fooled".

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Only on the Habs board would people debate Desharnais vs Gagner.
I know, right.

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07-26-2013, 09:11 AM
  #200
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Dd received top pp time and received our best wingers last two seasons.. Lets not talk like he was given less of a chance to succeed than gagner
He wasn't given prime ice time from day 1 like Gagner. The oilers have been giving Gagner top ice time and PP time the last 4 years to try and justify picking him so eraly. Simply not worth that kind of money.

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