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Old
07-25-2013, 10:22 PM
  #451
LegionOfDoom91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, there's a lot of kneejerk in that thread. To say Gillis is the worst is over the top.

The Holmgren nominations came from Philly critics not known for their unbiased ability to comment on our fine organization.
Yup, I look at his overall body of work as pretty good. He recently won the GM of they year award as well & now suddenly is the worst of the decade because of one bad deal? I don't understand the logic people have on that one.

Most of the Homer criticism on there is the Bryzgalov/Bob situation which you could point more of the finger at Snider there than Homer.

I'm not even sure if Homer was the worst Flyers GM since the lockout. Clarke made some real bone head moves in that one year that Homer had to clean up the following year. Luckily for us he at least held onto Richards & Carter before he resigned.

I saw some mention Lou Lams in the thread too. I do think people tend to act like he's infallible & everything he does is for a reason but I wouldn't put him up there because of the Kovy situation & the draft pick, overall his body of work is pretty good. It's just another knee-jerk reaction to current events.

Every GM has mistakes & bad moves, I tend to look at the ones who do it the least as some of the best.


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Old
07-25-2013, 10:33 PM
  #452
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Sharp for Ellison

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Old
07-26-2013, 01:15 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan8828 View Post
Sharp for Ellison
I take it you didn't actually follow the Flyers at the time of the trade? It was a bad trade, but it was a trade that had to be made given Sharp was getting no ice time here. Sharp was going no where here, got Ellison and a 3rd rounder which was flipped for Dimitrakos. At the time it was just another nothing trade, because there's no way Sharp turned into anything here.

see thread - http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=198184

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07-26-2013, 01:58 AM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
I agree.

Toews may not have the better offensive numbers, but he literally does everything.
So does Giroux? Giroux took the most FO last year of any player, he plays the PP and the PK.

In terms of overall skills both are equal and you could argue for either to be the better two way forward (In that regard Giroux, Bergeron, Dats and Toews are my top 4 in no particular order)

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07-26-2013, 08:10 AM
  #455
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Originally Posted by CavemanLawyer View Post
I take it you didn't actually follow the Flyers at the time of the trade? It was a bad trade, but it was a trade that had to be made given Sharp was getting no ice time here. Sharp was going no where here, got Ellison and a 3rd rounder which was flipped for Dimitrakos. At the time it was just another nothing trade, because there's no way Sharp turned into anything here.

see thread - http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=198184
it was a terrible trade no matter how you break it down. The return was garbage. we gave him away for nothing. Our scouts failed

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07-26-2013, 08:14 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by CavemanLawyer View Post
I take it you didn't actually follow the Flyers at the time of the trade? It was a bad trade, but it was a trade that had to be made given Sharp was getting no ice time here. Sharp was going no where here, got Ellison and a 3rd rounder which was flipped for Dimitrakos. At the time it was just another nothing trade, because there's no way Sharp turned into anything here.
That's a bunch of nonsense. The trade did not have to be made.

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07-26-2013, 08:27 AM
  #457
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Seidenberg was another awful move that didnt have to be made that season

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07-26-2013, 08:36 AM
  #458
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The trade did not have to be made, but it is clear now Sharp wanted out/didn't like Hitch and Clarke obliged him.

Weird to read my comments from 2005. I thought Sharp was going to be a decent NHLer, but nothing special.

Bad trade, but I feel like every franchise has one of these.

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07-26-2013, 08:40 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
Seidenberg was another awful move that didnt have to be made that season
It's near damning when you take a look at what our defense was shaping up to be in the 2006-07 season.

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07-26-2013, 08:42 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by BrimFullofAsham45 View Post
The trade did not have to be made, but it is clear now Sharp wanted out/didn't like Hitch and Clarke obliged him.

Weird to read my comments from 2005. I thought Sharp was going to be a decent NHLer, but nothing special.

Bad trade, but I feel like every franchise has one of these.
One of them? Every franchise has a bad trade like this probably every few years. It seems like this board just concentrates on all the bad moves we make, and never on the good moves. Not saying people don't appreciate the good moves we make, but we just constantly dwell on the negatives. For a franchise that has been so successful(I know we haven't won a cup in a long time, but overall) we really seem like we are run extremely poorly if you go by post in here. I think we all know that it is not the case. Homer isn't the best, nor is he the worst, but people act like he doesn't know what he is doing sometimes(yes, I know Clarkie made the Sharp trade also, just talking about the here and now.)

One person I would fire though is Barry Hanrahan, for a guy who's primary job is knowledge of the salary cap, the Flyers have too many problems in that regard. Get some else in here for that.


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Old
07-26-2013, 08:45 AM
  #461
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The names Jones, Meyers, Picard are the stuff of nightmares. What a terrible time to be a Flyers fan.

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Old
07-26-2013, 08:55 AM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
One of them? Every franchise has a bad trade like this probably every few years. It seems like this board just concentrates on all the bad moves we make, and never on the good moves. Not saying people don't appreciate the good moves we make, but we just constantly dwell on the negatives. For a franchise that has been so successful(I know we haven't won a cup, but overall) we really seem like we are run extremely poorly if you go by post in here. I think we all know that it is not the case. Homer isn't the best, nor is he the worst, but people act like he doesn't know what he is doing sometimes(yes, I know Clarkie made the Sharp trade also, just talking about the here and now.)

One person I would fire though is Barry Hanrahan, for a guy who's primary job is knowledge of the salary cap, the Flyers have too many problems in that regard. Get some else in here for that.
By my count Holmgren is certainly one of the top GMs in the league. Chiarelli seems like the clear cut best GM in the league to me, but I'd be hard pressed to find another I'd take over Holmgren. I don't mean to seem like a homer, no pun intended, but most GMs seem pretty mediocre and overly conservative to me.

The anti-Holmgren shtick on the main boards is quite perplexing to me.

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Old
07-26-2013, 09:02 AM
  #463
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I like the fact that Holmgren has balls, but I just wish Snider will let him do his job

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Old
07-26-2013, 09:15 AM
  #464
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I don't get all the fuss with Sharp trade? With hindsight it turned out to be bad because Sharp far exceeded expectations & the return was basically nothing. With that said there's no guarantee he would have done that here behind Richards, Carter, & Umberger ahead of him on the depth chart at the time. The Flyers did him a solid by trading him to somewhere where he could play similar to Bobrovsky, it just came back to haunt us with hindsight.

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07-26-2013, 09:19 AM
  #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrimFullofAsham45 View Post
By my count Holmgren is certainly one of the top GMs in the league. Chiarelli seems like the clear cut best GM in the league to me, but I'd be hard pressed to find another I'd take over Holmgren. I don't mean to seem like a homer, no pun intended, but most GMs seem pretty mediocre and overly conservative to me.

The anti-Holmgren shtick on the main boards is quite perplexing to me.
Exactly. That's the thing. It seems that people on these boards (and the main board) want perfection. They won't say that, but everyone has something to say about every single signing and trade. He's not perfect. He's made mistakes. The argument I have consistently made is that his mistakes do not have as big a negative impact as the good moves have made positive impacts. Even if you want to say that simply in numbers he has made more bad than good moves (which I would refute), those moves, both individually and cumulative, are outweighed by his good moves.

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Old
07-26-2013, 09:34 AM
  #466
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Exactly. That's the thing. It seems that people on these boards (and the main board) want perfection. They won't say that, but everyone has something to say about every single signing and trade. He's not perfect. He's made mistakes. The argument I have consistently made is that his mistakes do not have as big a negative impact as the good moves have made positive impacts. Even if you want to say that simply in numbers he has made more bad than good moves (which I would refute), those moves, both individually and cumulative, are outweighed by his good moves.
The bad moves are pretty negligible. The three that stick out in my mind:

(1) Upshall + 2nd rounder for Carcillo
(2) Eminger for a 1st
(3) Bobrovsky trade

The Upshall trade is pretty insignificant now because we all have realized Upshall sucks, and the 2nd rounder is probably a bust.

The Eminger trade is a stinger, but even if we slide John Carlson into our lineup, I don't think that we are a better team for it. It would certainly make our defense more appealing to the readers of the main board though!!

Obviously the Bobrovsky trade stings but Bob would not have won a Vezina here, even if he was the starter. It's hard to take Mason over him but with how players fluctuate in this league, especially goalies, HFboards is probably going to be singing a much different song next summer.

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Old
07-26-2013, 09:41 AM
  #467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrimFullofAsham45 View Post
The bad moves are pretty negligible. The three that stick out in my mind:

(1) Upshall + 2nd rounder for Carcillo
(2) Eminger for a 1st
(3) Bobrovsky trade

The Upshall trade is pretty insignificant now because we all have realized Upshall sucks, and the 2nd rounder is probably a bust.

The Eminger trade is a stinger, but even if we slide John Carlson into our lineup, I don't think that we are a better team for it. It would certainly make our defense more appealing to the readers of the main board though!!

Obviously the Bobrovsky trade stings but Bob would not have won a Vezina here, even if he was the starter. It's hard to take Mason over him but with how players fluctuate in this league, especially goalies, HFboards is probably going to be singing a much different song next summer.
The Eminger trade was bad off the bat but when talking about most assume that we would have definitely taken Carlson like its a fact which makes it seem worse than it actually is.

I also enjoy when people complain about taking Marshall over Subban.


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Old
07-26-2013, 09:42 AM
  #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrimFullofAsham45 View Post
The bad moves are pretty negligible. The three that stick out in my mind:

(1) Upshall + 2nd rounder for Carcillo
(2) Eminger for a 1st
(3) Bobrovsky trade

The Upshall trade is pretty insignificant now because we all have realized Upshall sucks, and the 2nd rounder is probably a bust.

The Eminger trade is a stinger, but even if we slide John Carlson into our lineup, I don't think that we are a better team for it. It would certainly make our defense more appealing to the readers of the main board though!!

Obviously the Bobrovsky trade stings but Bob would not have won a Vezina here, even if he was the starter. It's hard to take Mason over him but with how players fluctuate in this league, especially goalies, HFboards is probably going to be singing a much different song next summer.
There were definitely more bad moves than that, but even so, they don't have impact that people on here would have you believe. Did they hurt the team at times? Sure. But again, more good moves and more impactful good moves should hold more weight.

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Old
07-26-2013, 09:46 AM
  #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
The Eminger trade was bad off the bat but when talking about most assume that we have definitely taken Carlson like its a fact which makes it seem worse than it actually is.

I also enjoy when people complain about taking Marshall over Subban.
Yeah that's an issue too. When people say stuff like, "if they Flyers would have done X they would have won a Cup in 2010." X is usually about having a goalie, but people fail to realize that if there was a different goalie there, the rest of the team may not have looked the same and they may not have gotten there.

Not to mention the argument I have made a thousang times on here about the 2010 finals is that goaltending was not the ONLY reason they didn't win that year. As easy as you can say "if we had a goalie..." I can say "if our best forwards played better (I don't know exactly what their line was, but Gagne, Richards, and Carter had like 7 points combined and were a minus 20 or something like that)..." or "if the third pairing played more than 2 minutes per game..."

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07-26-2013, 09:51 AM
  #470
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Nevermind. The thought police decided to neuter my point so why even bother.


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07-26-2013, 09:53 AM
  #471
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yeah that's an issue too. When people say stuff like, "if they Flyers would have done X they would have won a Cup in 2010." X is usually about having a goalie, but people fail to realize that if there was a different goalie there, the rest of the team may not have looked the same and they may not have gotten there.

Not to mention the argument I have made a thousang times on here about the 2010 finals is that goaltending was not the ONLY reason they didn't win that year. As easy as you can say "if we had a goalie..." I can say "if our best forwards played better (I don't know exactly what their line was, but Gagne, Richards, and Carter had like 7 points combined and were a minus 20 or something like that)..." or "if the third pairing played more than 2 minutes per game..."
Well I don't know if we would have won for sure but I would have liked our chances better with a healthy Emery in net over Leighton & Boucher.

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07-26-2013, 10:08 AM
  #472
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Well I don't know if we would have won for sure but I would have liked our chances better with a healthy Emery in net over Leighton & Boucher.
Well yeah our chances would have been better, but it also would have been better with a better third pair. It also would have been better if the primary scoring came through. It also would have been better if Pronger shut down Byuglien. There was not ONE thing that caused this team to lose that series.

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07-26-2013, 10:16 AM
  #473
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Exactly. That's the thing. It seems that people on these boards (and the main board) want perfection. They won't say that, but everyone has something to say about every single signing and trade. He's not perfect. He's made mistakes. The argument I have consistently made is that his mistakes do not have as big a negative impact as the good moves have made positive impacts. Even if you want to say that simply in numbers he has made more bad than good moves (which I would refute), those moves, both individually and cumulative, are outweighed by his good moves.
If we didn't care about every minute detail of the Flyers, we wouldn't be posting on a Flyers message board. Of course everyone here has an opinion on every move the team makes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Not to mention the argument I have made a thousang times on here about the 2010 finals is that goaltending was not the ONLY reason they didn't win that year. As easy as you can say "if we had a goalie..." I can say "if our best forwards played better (I don't know exactly what their line was, but Gagne, Richards, and Carter had like 7 points combined and were a minus 20 or something like that)..." or "if the third pairing played more than 2 minutes per game..."
Well, if the third pair played more than two minutes a game in the 2010 Final, the Hawks probably would have won in 4.

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07-26-2013, 10:24 AM
  #474
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What's hilarious is that there was nary a peep about Sharp getting dumped at the time, yet the Upshall trade prompted outrage . Funny how
that worked out.
I was never an Upshall fan. I would have been fine if it was just a 1-for-1 swap, but I didn't like the fact that Homer threw a 2nd rounder in there because of the cap differences when it wasnt all that much

If anything, PHX should have added the 2nd

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07-26-2013, 11:09 AM
  #475
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
If we didn't care about every minute detail of the Flyers, we wouldn't be posting on a Flyers message board. Of course everyone here has an opinion on every move the team makes.
But you know what I mean. People complaining that this guy should have been drafted here, this trade should have returned another draft pick, this contract should have been $200k and one year less. If you read these boards (all of HF, really), I would estimate that you wind find that the vast majority of NHL transaction are terrible moves for which the GM should fired.


Quote:
Well, if the third pair played more than two minutes a game in the 2010 Final, the Hawks probably would have won in 4.
Haha, well what I was saying was that Pronger/Timonen/Carle/Coburn were wiped out because they were playing 158 minutes per game. Parent/Bartulis/Kracijek sucked, but you gotta be able to play reasonable minutes, even in the SCF. They played decent through the first couple series.

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