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Old
07-25-2013, 11:51 PM
  #76
BwayBshirt
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Originally Posted by NYRKindms View Post
you guys saying how can they move it do realize this is the 4th version of MSG correct ?
Everybody knows this.

But Manhattan real estate has skyrocketed since the last move in 1968. There is not sensible real estate to put a new MSG at.

Not to mention that people will/would ***** & complain at any possible new site in Manhattan.

Hell, when the Farley Building was mentioned a few years ago, there were the Preservationists out in full force to say "We want Dolan to have limited ads on & outside the building!" & "They can only have this but not that & that but not this!"...which was just another factor in the project never getting off the ground on top of the bigger ones already mentioned.

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07-26-2013, 12:36 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by BwayBshirt View Post
Everybody knows this.

But Manhattan real estate has skyrocketed since the last move in 1968. There is not sensible real estate to put a new MSG at.
That's not true, the city owns lots of land they can trade. Something can be found, but it sure won't be in dead center midtown

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07-26-2013, 12:56 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
That's not true, the city owns lots of land they can trade. Something can be found, but it sure won't be in dead center midtown
Hence I added the word "sensible".

I am curious though...do you know any of the tracts of land that the city owns on Manhattan by chance?

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07-26-2013, 12:58 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BwayBshirt View Post
Hence I added the word "sensible".

I am curious though...do you know any of the tracts of land that the city owns on Manhattan by chance?
"sensible", as in maximum profit for MSG corp? I don't think the city cares

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07-26-2013, 05:47 AM
  #80
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Don't like her?! What's not to like about her? She's rich, she's beautiful...she has huge......tracts of land.............

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07-26-2013, 06:17 AM
  #81
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How much truth is there to this story? MSG is an icon. As a former Brooklyn boy, I see MSG in the same eyes as the Empire State Building, the SoL, etc. If they must move, is 10 years really enough time, or do you guys think this is something that can go on past the 10 years?

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07-26-2013, 06:24 AM
  #82
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Well no matter how you look at it, this dance needs to be settled in the next year. It will take a three-four years to settle on a new arena location. Environmental, impact and transportation studies will have to be completed. Proper plans and permits pulled, contractors approved on closed bids, union involvement just to naming a few of the many items. Then finally the time it will take to build. 10 years is not alot of time. Bleed Red - I was thinking the same thing.

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07-26-2013, 07:59 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Not yet. Starting in two weeks.



Actually it is private property. MSG Inc owns the air and development rights. Amtrack owns everything at and below ground. The lease is really a land-use permit that allows MSG Inc to operate an 18,000+ seat arena because city zoning laws impose a 2,500 seat limit in the area. The city can reject the permit application when the land-use permit is up for renewal, but MSG Inc is still entitled to do whatever they want with the above-ground space. Dolan can replace the arena with a lemonade stand if he wants. The city can take back the land by invoking eminent domain but they have to compensate MSG Inc for it. Fair market value. And that is a whole heckuva lot of money. Even moreso now due its shiny new coat of paint. Probably why Dolan imposed a 2008 deadline on the Moynihan Station decision. Wanted to get the renovation done before the permit expired and maximize land value.
I am now smarter because of you.

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07-26-2013, 08:17 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by DekeR View Post
Well no matter how you look at it, this dance needs to be settled in the next year. It will take a three-four years to settle on a new arena location. Environmental, impact and transportation studies will have to be completed. Proper plans and permits pulled, contractors approved on closed bids, union involvement just to naming a few of the many items. Then finally the time it will take to build. 10 years is not alot of time. Bleed Red - I was thinking the same thing.
I don't think 10 years is in any way, shape or form a hard deadline. I'm sure MSG will fight it unless the city gives them a sweetheart deal. And if it takes longer than 10 years, the city will just extend the permit.

Really, what can the city do? Their only leverage is to deny the permit, and they aren't going to do that.

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07-26-2013, 08:35 AM
  #85
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I don't think 10 years is in any way, shape or form a hard deadline. I'm sure MSG will fight it unless the city gives them a sweetheart deal. And if it takes longer than 10 years, the city will just extend the permit.

Really, what can the city do? Their only leverage is to deny the permit, and they aren't going to do that.

Totally agree that 10 years is not a hard line considering the propositions and from what Crease has mentioned this all seems to be a feast of lawyers prolonging the outcome maybe another decade. However I do not agree that the city will not use that permitting leverage, if a Penn station renovation is what the Gov wants, you will be hard pressed to win that battle in the long haul (gov. money vs big business money & considering you are financing your own demise to some degree) . You will be just prolonging the inevitable.

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07-26-2013, 11:07 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by BwayBshirt View Post
Hence I added the word "sensible".

I am curious though...do you know any of the tracts of land that the city owns on Manhattan by chance?
Hudson Yards. There's more than enough space. That huge development Related is planning, it'll be revised hundreds of times before they break ground. I'm sure they could include an 18,000 seat arena.

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07-26-2013, 11:16 AM
  #87
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A lot can and will change in ten years. I highly doubt NYC itself will do away with an iconic draw. I believe much depends on how the city develops over the next ten years. If it is such the case that an area is desperate for development (ie the West Side), and in the course of the next ten years corporate real estate, entertainment hubs, small businesses, and etc.. etc.. don't set foot there, then I can see a large scale project taking place there, MSG or not.

I love the city, but any development will always come down to the cost and return on investments made, and while I believe the political officials will do everything it can to win favorable terms on their end, there is no way that the public will pick up the cost of a large scale project in it's entirety.

Given the fact that it's NYC, you can bet pretty much all those dollars will come from corporations, and this current construct of an agreement; MSG will be at least one corporation that will have a need to spend.

Although I highly doubt that it will ever come to that.


Last edited by Mikos87: 07-26-2013 at 11:29 AM.
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07-26-2013, 11:48 AM
  #88
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If the Red Wings can get $400MM from bankrupt Detroit, then a new MSG can get money from NYC.

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07-26-2013, 12:48 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Not yet. Starting in two weeks.
Good luck! Make sure you make time for the 'Gers, and learn 2-207 as early as possible



Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Actually it is private property. MSG Inc owns the air and development rights. Amtrack owns everything at and below ground. The lease is really a land-use permit that allows MSG Inc to operate an 18,000+ seat arena because city zoning laws impose a 2,500 seat limit in the area. The city can reject the permit application when the land-use permit is up for renewal, but MSG Inc is still entitled to do whatever they want with the above-ground space. Dolan can replace the arena with a lemonade stand if he wants. The city can take back the land by invoking eminent domain but they have to compensate MSG Inc for it. Fair market value. And that is a whole heckuva lot of money. Even moreso now due its shiny new coat of paint. Probably why Dolan imposed a 2008 deadline on the Moynihan Station decision. Wanted to get the renovation done before the permit expired and maximize land value.
Tip o' the cap to you. Didn't know about that odd lease agreement. Do you know any of the policy behind it when it was made (i'm assuming back in the 60's) and why they did it? Do the other sports stadiums around the city have the same agreements?

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07-26-2013, 12:54 PM
  #90
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Welcome to the relocation nightmare that became our lives for a few years. seems rediculous that MSG would need to be moved just so they can expand penn

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07-26-2013, 01:03 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Flavius View Post
Tip o' the cap to you. Didn't know about that odd lease agreement. Do you know any of the policy behind it when it was made (i'm assuming back in the 60's) and why they did it? Do the other sports stadiums around the city have the same agreements?
You're right. It all happened back in the 60's. Pennsylvania Railrood was struggling to cover expenses due to the rise of the automobile and increase in air traffic. In order to make ends meet, they struck a deal with MSG Inc, who was looking for a new plot of land to replace MSG III (built 1925 on 8th Ave between 49th and 50th Streets). The two struck a deal in 1963. Pennsylvania Railrood would use the proceeds from the air and development rights sale to continue operations below ground. MSG Inc would use the plot of land to build MSG IV and the adjacent office building. The NYC Council awarded MSG Inc a 50 year permit to build and operate a facility with more than 2,500 seats. That expired in January. Extended 10 more years this past week. And here we are today.

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07-26-2013, 02:37 PM
  #92
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If the Red Wings can get $400MM from bankrupt Detroit, then a new MSG can get money from NYC.
The money is coming from the state of Michigan.

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07-26-2013, 02:57 PM
  #93
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Who is paying for the new building? City money wasn't used for the new baseball stadiums and the Barclay Center. Public financing was used to improve infrastructure at those sites.

New York City and New York State don't have the money to build a sports building.

The popular site is near the West Side Highway. It used to be the Hudson rail yards. Jacob Javits Center location is now the new spot.

That's where Steinbrenner wanted to build a new Yankee Stadium in the 1980's. Bloomberg and Woody wanted a football stadium built there along with NYC hosting the 2012 Summer Olympics which didn't happen.

A very long time ago,the Garden was looking to build a new Garden on that site before they renovated in the late 1980's. It was too expensive.

That location is now taken

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1212797



Two blocks away from the Garden

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07-26-2013, 03:23 PM
  #94
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They couldn't have brought this crap up before MSG did a massive renovation?
My thought exactly.

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07-26-2013, 03:26 PM
  #95
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This is just politics. As I have said before, there is nothing in it for the city to give MSG a longer permit. When it comes time, it will get renewed. MSG is not going anywhere. Christine Quinn and the rest of them will be long gone by the time the renewal comes up. This is all to make them look strong in the eyes of the public in an election year.

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07-26-2013, 04:07 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Who is paying for the new building? City money wasn't used for the new baseball stadiums and the Barclay Center. Public financing was used to improve infrastructure at those sites.

New York City and New York State don't have the money to build a sports building.

The popular site is near the West Side Highway. It used to be the Hudson rail yards. Jacob Javits Center location is now the new spot.

That's where Steinbrenner wanted to build a new Yankee Stadium in the 1980's. Bloomberg and Woody wanted a football stadium built there along with NYC hosting the 2012 Summer Olympics which didn't happen.

A very long time ago,the Garden was looking to build a new Garden on that site before they renovated in the late 1980's. It was too expensive.

That location is now taken

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1212797



Two blocks away from the Garden
All that land is 100% spoken for and under construction right now








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07-26-2013, 04:33 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
You're right. It all happened back in the 60's. Pennsylvania Railrood was struggling to cover expenses due to the rise of the automobile and increase in air traffic. In order to make ends meet, they struck a deal with MSG Inc, who was looking for a new plot of land to replace MSG III (built 1925 on 8th Ave between 49th and 50th Streets). The two struck a deal in 1963. Pennsylvania Railrood would use the proceeds from the air and development rights sale to continue operations below ground. MSG Inc would use the plot of land to build MSG IV and the adjacent office building. The NYC Council awarded MSG Inc a 50 year permit to build and operate a facility with more than 2,500 seats. That expired in January. Extended 10 more years this past week. And here we are today.
If your opinion, would White Plains work?

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07-26-2013, 04:35 PM
  #98
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If your opinion, would White Plains work?
Probably unlikely but I would do ungodly things

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07-26-2013, 04:44 PM
  #99
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If your opinion, would White Plains work?
I doubt it. I think they would lose a good chunk of their season ticket base, which is mostly an after-work crowd. The guy who works in the city, but lives anywhere other than Westchester is not going to want to head up there after work and then have to back to the city before going home.

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07-26-2013, 05:07 PM
  #100
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The Jacobs Javits Center site is right next to the West Side Rail yards.



http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...west-side.html



You can see the Garden. The rail yards. That big black building to its right. Put it there.

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