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The Out of Town Thread part LXVI - All Talk From Around the League Here

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Old
07-26-2013, 02:42 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Plekanec, alfredsson and Datsyuk are not soft at all. Diaz is. When was the last time you saw him in a scrum ? When was the last time you saw him battle for the puck in the corners ? Yeah. Likely never. He's soft.

I still like him though.
yet Plekanec is not soft, when's the last time you saw him involved in scrums ?

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07-26-2013, 02:50 PM
  #252
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yet Plekanec is not soft, when's the last time you saw him involved in scrums ?
This year. Year before that. and that. and so on. He's not crushing people and scrapping = soft.

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07-26-2013, 02:52 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Dagistitsyn View Post
This year. Year before that. and that. and so on. He's not crushing people and scrapping = soft.
more like : you're below 6'0 and happen not to be named Gallagher or Plekanec, you're automatically soft

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07-26-2013, 03:01 PM
  #254
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Could someone enlighten a bit more on why the Leafs bought out Grabs? I thought I recalled him being one of their best forwards. And they had just re-signed him, no? What gives.

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07-26-2013, 03:09 PM
  #255
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Him and Carlyle didn't get along and with Bozak and the emerging Kadri, Grabovski was making too much money for being a 3rd line center for them.

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07-26-2013, 03:27 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
He had 88 points in 129 games, that works out to 56 over a full season. In a normal season that puts him around 65-70 overall, in the WHOLE NHL. On what planet is that a 3rd liner?
The planet where you stop trying to combine his one good season (where he fed off beast mode Patches + Cole) with his other seasons, in an effort to make him look good. Last year, with our top wingers, boat load of PP time and every opportunity to succeed, he scored at a 40 point pace. Which, I would be inclined to believe, had it been an 82 game schedule, would've regressed to a 30 point pace.

And in no way am I saying he is a 3rd liner, since I would not have that useless twit on my 3rd line. He'd be terrible in a 3rd line role, even more terrible than his top 6 role.

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07-26-2013, 03:29 PM
  #257
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Could someone enlighten a bit more on why the Leafs bought out Grabs? I thought I recalled him being one of their best forwards. And they had just re-signed him, no? What gives.
He was put into a purely defensive role and he wasn't being paid like a shutdown centre should be.

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Old
07-26-2013, 03:41 PM
  #258
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Wow...Gerbe couldn't get a 1-way contract? Pretty surprising....

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Old
07-26-2013, 03:43 PM
  #259
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I like that Nathan Gerbe was signed by Carolina today.

Muller is creating Montreal South in Raleigh, NC.

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07-26-2013, 04:11 PM
  #260
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Great way to advertise your product.

I bet its even tax deductible.



Nonis extended 5 years with the Laffs.

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07-26-2013, 05:42 PM
  #261
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Wow...Gerbe couldn't get a 1-way contract? Pretty surprising....
5ft5 (maybe even shorter).. 10 points.. I would be happy to just have a contract if I was him.

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07-26-2013, 07:14 PM
  #262
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Gerbe got a contract and not from the habs? I'm surprised

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07-26-2013, 07:53 PM
  #263
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Funny how you use 1 year comparisons when it suits you and then disregard 1 year comaprisons when it goes agaisnt your arguement.
Funny how I'm using the information available from the year they signed their contracts.

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I think 6 full years of which he was given the most playing time is enough information to determine whether a player has achieved his potential or not. This isn't a case of McCarron being a "potential" bust or not. Gagner has been playing for SIX YEARS! and never broken 50 points.
And yet he has been a top scorer on their team the whole time. But that doesn't matter to you, right? It's not the team composition or depth that has plagued the Oilers in the years immediately following Gagner joining them, it's Sam Gagner... how could everyone miss the obvious?

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Prime position is not relative. When you're given more miinutes than every other forward on your team and put on the PP and offensive positions as he's the #2 centre on the team. It's not like he wasn't given a chance to produce offence in his role. Acting like he wasn't given every chance to produce offense is a little disingenuous.
Disingenuous is pretending that I didn't do all the work for you and show that he DIDN'T get more minutes than every other forward on his team, and in fact more often ranked around 5th just among Oiler forwards in terms of ES and PP opportunity. And just how much of an opportunity are you trying to suggest it was, playing 2nd wave on the Oilers of '07/08-'11/12?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
As for comparing him to Eberle, get real. Eberle is averaging .80 PPG and is arguably their best forward. RNH is averaging .75 PPG and has only played 2 seasons.
And Gagner, despite being so "long in the tooth", is producing right along side them. So if you prefer to focus just on what they've done, and completely ignore what's projected for them moving forward, he has been "worth" just as much as the team's recent 1st and 2nd overall draft picks, which ain't bad.

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Again, you use long term trends to say Gagner still can't be assesed properly and than compare him to 2 players who have better numbers over a longer and a shorter period of time and who are both obviously much better players. Your comparison makes little sense.
Not just long term, but also league-wide. But let's back up. What makes them "obviously better players" to you, if all you're going on is what they've actually done so far? RNH hasn't been more productive at 18/19 than Gagner was at 18/19, and Eberle - for all the DD-like '11/12 season he had - had a 20 year old season in '10/11 that was almost exactly like the 20 year old season Gagner the year before in '09/10, and got out-produced by Gagner this year (and they're only a year apart, obviously).

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
As for Hemski, come on. He's been done for some time in Edmonton, so much so that the GM said that he's actively trying to trade him. Even at that, he's still a career .76PPG player and has has way better seasons in his first 6 seasons with Edmonton. In fact, every player you comapred him to has had much better seasons than Gagner has had since joining the team compared to Gagner who since his first season has averaged in the low 40's for points in a season. He's another player who I said got paid waay too much on his last $5M, 2 year deal. Ironic how you're using him as a comparison to Gagne now.
I'm comparing production to worth, not making player comparisons. I know you're unable to deal with player comparisons, so I'm trying to keep this at a level where hockeydb and capgeek can at least try to let you keep up.

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
So how many hours do I need to watch him play in your arbitrary world to qualify as a professional on the topic of Sam Gagner? 10 hrs? 15?
A lot more than you do, that's all I can tell you.

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
How many hours of your day do you dedicate to scouting Sam Gagner? Maybe that's why you think he's so amazing. All those man hours observing him are bound to make you biased.
I watch every team in the league a LOT. I have a lot of time to watch hockey, and I watch a lot of hockey. But I find that I can get more out of 5 minutes of watching hockey than many people get out of 5 years, so it's kind of moot in the end any way.

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I don't think so. In fact, I think you're showing quite the opposite. You've tried to drill down so hard that Gagner is worth all that money that you're not seeing the forest from the leaves.
No, I haven't. I've tried to dill down hard that Gagner at $4.8 million doesn't make DD's $3.5 million ANY more palatable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
He has NOT produced at the NHL level at the pace a 5th pick overall should. He has not proven he's a 2nd line centre in the NHL from a point production standpoint. How many 2nd line centres have never scored more than 49 points and average around 42 point per year? Not many.
This, from start to finish, shows your distorted spreadsheet-ruled world of ranking the contributions of players across time and different teams.

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Using 1 year analysis to prove your point goes counter to your previous point, but I digress. I can see you wanting to make this a Sam Gagner vs DD arguement as it's the only way you can justify saying how amazing Gagner is and how he deserves that $4.8MM.
It was YOU (and others) who threw in the snide comments about how DD's contract looks a lot better now that some of the other signings have gone down. I haven't even attempted to paint Gagner as "amazing" or anything of the like. It's a real strawman army out there today in my fields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Someone always looks better when they're standing next to an ugly person. Unfortunatly for you, this is an arguement you're making with yourself. I'll repeat for the 8th time. I NEVER said DD was a better player than Gagner.
So how, then, is a $1.3 million gap in their cap hit representative of a "steal" for DD (or "fair", even) and "grossly overpaying" for Gagner?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I did say that for the one year DD was given the opportunity to produce, he did. Gagner in year 4 of opportunity still has not. This is not an opionion as much as a statistical fact. Take it as you will.
You've done a good job of making something that misses the mark on many levels almost sound like a fact. Congratulations.

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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
The NHL is littered with players making waaay more than they should. Most times it's pretty obvious when this happens. Fans, pundits etc tend not to be off the mark too much when it comes to a players value. This is just another case of a player being paid too much for what he produces. Further to my original point, it also makes DD's contract more palatable knowing that guys like Gagne and his wopping 49 points, 6 years ago btw, are being paid even more ridiculous amounts.
Yeah, if all you do is look at stats with complete lack of comprehension of what goes into producing them in the various scoring environments around the league, and armed with relatively little in the way of actual observation, then yeah, you'll keep thinking that having DD on your roster at $3.5 million for the next 3 years is a much better thing than having Gagner at $4.8 million over the same period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
That's fairly obvious with your arguements. You've lost all objectivity in your posts and are making this personal. It's not to me. It's pretty simple no matter how much you try to make this some complex, incoherent rant to justify your point. Gagner just isn't that good and not worth almost $5MM per.
Truly, nothing personal here. Anyone going to the same ridiculous lengths to justify Desharnais' contract would get the same treatment from me; especially if it comes with needless and misguided tearing down of ANY other player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I'm sure is you asked anyone around the league if they'd rather have Patches or Gagner at their current salaries, I don't think you'd get much of an arguement as to who people would rather have.

As I said before, the NHL is littered with bad contracts, I guess we can add gagner to that pile.
And even if I indulge you in your strawman for a moment here, Pacioretty hasn't even become a 20 min/night player yet. Gagner has. But the issue for me isn't whether or not Gagner is "overpaid". I've even suggested that he probably is in the previous post. But you tell me exactly how much he's overpaid (which I submit is the hard part, since it really can't be by that much), and show me some supporting background work that doesn't involve cherry-picked Habs that you're obviously actually familiar with, who also signed at a discount to get long term security in exchange.

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Old
07-26-2013, 07:55 PM
  #264
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You're a lost cause. The only argument you bring to the table is the 88 points.

We all know that DD is a liability more often than not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
The planet where you stop trying to combine his one good season (where he fed off beast mode Patches + Cole) with his other seasons, in an effort to make him look good. Last year, with our top wingers, boat load of PP time and every opportunity to succeed, he scored at a 40 point pace. Which, I would be inclined to believe, had it been an 82 game schedule, would've regressed to a 30 point pace.

And in no way am I saying he is a 3rd liner, since I would not have that useless twit on my 3rd line. He'd be terrible in a 3rd line role, even more terrible than his top 6 role.
Just gonna quote these guys for truth.

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07-26-2013, 09:10 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Funny how I'm using the information available from the year they signed their contracts.



And yet he has been a top scorer on their team the whole time. But that doesn't matter to you, right? It's not the team composition or depth that has plagued the Oilers in the years immediately following Gagner joining them, it's Sam Gagner... how could everyone miss the obvious?



Disingenuous is pretending that I didn't do all the work for you and show that he DIDN'T get more minutes than every other forward on his team, and in fact more often ranked around 5th just among Oiler forwards in terms of ES and PP opportunity. And just how much of an opportunity are you trying to suggest it was, playing 2nd wave on the Oilers of '07/08-'11/12?



And Gagner, despite being so "long in the tooth", is producing right along side them. So if you prefer to focus just on what they've done, and completely ignore what's projected for them moving forward, he has been "worth" just as much as the team's recent 1st and 2nd overall draft picks, which ain't bad.



Not just long term, but also league-wide. But let's back up. What makes them "obviously better players" to you, if all you're going on is what they've actually done so far? RNH hasn't been more productive at 18/19 than Gagner was at 18/19, and Eberle - for all the DD-like '11/12 season he had - had a 20 year old season in '10/11 that was almost exactly like the 20 year old season Gagner the year before in '09/10, and got out-produced by Gagner this year (and they're only a year apart, obviously).



I'm comparing production to worth, not making player comparisons. I know you're unable to deal with player comparisons, so I'm trying to keep this at a level where hockeydb and capgeek can at least try to let you keep up.



A lot more than you do, that's all I can tell you.



I watch every team in the league a LOT. I have a lot of time to watch hockey, and I watch a lot of hockey. But I find that I can get more out of 5 minutes of watching hockey than many people get out of 5 years, so it's kind of moot in the end any way.



No, I haven't. I've tried to dill down hard that Gagner at $4.8 million doesn't make DD's $3.5 million ANY more palatable.



This, from start to finish, shows your distorted spreadsheet-ruled world of ranking the contributions of players across time and different teams.



It was YOU (and others) who threw in the snide comments about how DD's contract looks a lot better now that some of the other signings have gone down. I haven't even attempted to paint Gagner as "amazing" or anything of the like. It's a real strawman army out there today in my fields.



So how, then, is a $1.3 million gap in their cap hit representative of a "steal" for DD (or "fair", even) and "grossly overpaying" for Gagner?!?



You've done a good job of making something that misses the mark on many levels almost sound like a fact. Congratulations.



Yeah, if all you do is look at stats with complete lack of comprehension of what goes into producing them in the various scoring environments around the league, and armed with relatively little in the way of actual observation, then yeah, you'll keep thinking that having DD on your roster at $3.5 million for the next 3 years is a much better thing than having Gagner at $4.8 million over the same period.



Truly, nothing personal here. Anyone going to the same ridiculous lengths to justify Desharnais' contract would get the same treatment from me; especially if it comes with needless and misguided tearing down of ANY other player.



And even if I indulge you in your strawman for a moment here, Pacioretty hasn't even become a 20 min/night player yet. Gagner has. But the issue for me isn't whether or not Gagner is "overpaid". I've even suggested that he probably is in the previous post. But you tell me exactly how much he's overpaid (which I submit is the hard part, since it really can't be by that much), and show me some supporting background work that doesn't involve cherry-picked Habs that you're obviously actually familiar with, who also signed at a discount to get long term security in exchange.

I look forward to responding to each and every one of these points when I get a chance. In the mean time, for all your effort and counter points I still have zero idea what your point is. I've been crystal clear on my stance but I have no idea what your point is. Other than arguing for the sale of arguing, what is point?

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Old
07-26-2013, 09:14 PM
  #266
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Wheeler gets 5.8 million, 6 years.

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07-26-2013, 09:29 PM
  #267
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Wheeler gets 5.8 million, 6 years.
That's more than Horton...are you ****ing kidding me. That's a lot of money for him. Not that he's a bad player but jeez, it's Blake Wheeler ffs.

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07-26-2013, 09:36 PM
  #268
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That's more than Horton...are you ****ing kidding me. That's a lot of money for him. Not that he's a bad player but jeez, it's Blake Wheeler ffs.
5.6, sorry.. still... brutal

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07-26-2013, 09:39 PM
  #269
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5.6, sorry.. still... brutal
Horton is at $5.3M AAV.

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Old
07-26-2013, 09:52 PM
  #270
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That's more than Horton...are you ****ing kidding me. That's a lot of money for him. Not that he's a bad player but jeez, it's Blake Wheeler ffs.
What is that supposed to mean? Wheeler is a very good player and is deserving of that contract. More of a late bloomer, but you can't discredit him for how he played these past few seasons. I'd take him and his contract before Horton easily.

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07-26-2013, 09:52 PM
  #271
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That's more than Horton...are you ****ing kidding me. That's a lot of money for him. Not that he's a bad player but jeez, it's Blake Wheeler ffs.
You'd have to pay me that much to make me live in Winnipeg too.

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07-26-2013, 10:52 PM
  #272
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Lots of guys get sheltered minutes and they don't put up 55-60 points a year.

If you can't find any team where Dd would play top 6 not only are you not looking hard, you're not even looking. There are 8-10 team,s at least looking for help in the top 6.
DD wouldn't be a 2nd center in a contender team. Our goal is to win the cup, I don't care how many points DD puts in a regular season, I don't want him as our 2nd center in a playoffs run.

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07-26-2013, 10:57 PM
  #273
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DD wouldn't be a 2nd center in a contender team. Our goal is to win the cup, I don't care how many points DD puts in a regular season, I don't want him as our 2nd center in a playoffs run.
With the emergence of Eller this season and Plekanec, DD is no longer our 2nd line center.

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Old
07-26-2013, 11:00 PM
  #274
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Could someone enlighten a bit more on why the Leafs bought out Grabs? I thought I recalled him being one of their best forwards. And they had just re-signed him, no? What gives.
Because Bozak is Kessel's best friend.

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07-26-2013, 11:03 PM
  #275
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Yikes. Winnipeg's top line quickly went from underrated to the most overpaid line in the league.

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