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Raphael Diaz Appreciation Thread

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Old
07-26-2013, 11:48 AM
  #176
JLP
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Replacing Diaz with a 6'4" stiff that can't play is a step backward, not forward.
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
...I find he gets heavily underrated here because he's 5'11" and smart and not a 6'4" grunt who hacks in front of the net...
Nothing personal MS, but I think this is a false dilemma that gets repeated too often on HF. It is NOT true that a player's size and skill are inversely related. For example Emelin is IMHO just as good or better with the puck than Diaz, for a variety of reasons. Question for you: Would you prefer we had a second Emelin, or Diaz?

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07-26-2013, 12:05 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
As long as Diaz is a cost-effective option and no worse than #6 on our depth chart, I vote keep him. He's all of that and more so far. But he gave me reason to hope for even more still with his pre-injury play last season. Will he be able to sustain or even build on that? I don't really know, but it's well worth waiting at least another year to gather more info. All you could possibly do is Sell Low on him at this point, no sense in doing that.
If Diaz was your #6, you'd either have ridiculous depth or a better defense than anybody in the NHL the last 2 seasons. On most teams a guy like him is a #3-4 and on a powerhouse team he may be #5 at worse.

The thing with Diaz is he will be a UFA next summer and MB should be trying to extend him. If he is asigned to a good contract(2 years 5.5 mil or 3 years 7.5 mil) he is easy to move if he becomes an extra with the young guys coming in like Beaulieu.

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I agree with you 99% of the time. On this, I disagree. Stanley Cup contending teams address needs of the present and handle future needs when the future becomes the present.

The value of Diaz could land us a physical DMan this season. There will be opportunities next season to address Markov leaving.

Again, the Habs did not struggle when Diaz was out. The Habs struggled when we lost Emelin.
The difference between you and MB is he is trying to build a team that contends for the cup year in year out for a 4-5-6 year window, not just one year and have to tear it down. If you start on short term fixes, it costs in future assets and puts roadblocks in front of the guys ready to(or close) to stepping in. That window will be wide open in about 2 years once Tinordi Galchenyuk Beaulieu Gallagher etc are in their prime.
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Nothing personal MS, but I think this is a false dilemma that gets repeated too often on HF. It is NOT true that a player's size and skill are inversely related. For example Emelin is IMHO just as good or better with the puck than Diaz, for a variety of reasons. Question for you: Would you prefer we had a second Emelin, or Diaz?
I don't agree Emelin is anywhere as good with the puck. He's good for a "stay at home" but not on the same level as Diaz both at moving the puck and also at playing the PP point.

On your 2nd point, a "second Emelin" is already on the way in Tinordi. Diaz might be the "next Markov", that will probably defend on a few factors, but I can't see Diaz being moved unless Markov signs an extension, and even then Beaulieu probably needs another year AHL so you need a 3rd PMD anyways.

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07-26-2013, 12:19 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
...

I don't agree Emelin is anywhere as good with the puck. He's good for a "stay at home" but not on the same level as Diaz both at moving the puck and also at playing the PP point...
Again this speaks to the flawed perception that small guys are speedy and deft, and adding inches subtracts from that. I say Emelin is as good or better with the puck because he is better at taking away the puck, better at maintaining possession of the puck, and has enough strength in his stick that he need not telegraph his first pass like Diaz does.

How can we reasonably compare the PP performance of Diaz, who benefited from Subban's early-season absence to play on the 1st wave; and Emelin, who got almost no PP time all season?

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07-26-2013, 12:33 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
i agree with your general sentiment, but this is just the kind of echo-chamber HF "truism" that gets repeated but has no ground in reality
I was actually being facetious, but I suppose a sarcastic facey thing would have been appropriate...

Diaz is good, cheap depth and he may have more to show than what he's done thus far. He really reminds me of Rafalski, a poor man's version anyway.

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07-26-2013, 12:56 PM
  #180
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Again this speaks to the flawed perception that small guys are speedy and deft, and adding inches subtracts from that. I say Emelin is as good or better with the puck because he is better at taking away the puck, better at maintaining possession of the puck, and has enough strength in his stick that he need not telegraph his first pass like Diaz does.

How can we reasonably compare the PP performance of Diaz, who benefited from Subban's early-season absence to play on the 1st wave; and Emelin, who got almost no PP time all season?
Even without PP time you can still see Emelin's point puckhandling 5 on 5. I'm sure playing on the PP would help his points, but again it's not about criticizing Emelin, he simply isn't on the same level as Diaz offensively(mobility, vision, puck skills).

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07-26-2013, 01:14 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I agree with you 99% of the time. On this, I disagree. Stanley Cup contending teams address needs of the present and handle future needs when the future becomes the present.

The value of Diaz could land us a physical DMan this season. There will be opportunities next season to address Markov leaving.

Again, the Habs did not struggle when Diaz was out.The Habs struggled when we lost Emelin.


This This This Boom Boom Boom!!!! There will be those that will discard what you say and will simply use the excuse that our Habs ran out of gas and that a 15th place over achieving team came crashing back to earth. I am sick of a small team that gets beat around like Ottawa did to us in the playoffs and like the Bs and Leafs did to us. I don't hate small finesse players but I would like a balance of both, would'nt we all? I too feel that Bergevin has to change this team around and needs to better the team now and not 3 years from now. I would not have signed DD or Briere and many other moves that are not on Bergevin, but thats just my opinion. The team needs a physical D so lets address it, even if it means trading away Raphael Subban.

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07-26-2013, 03:21 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post



The difference between you and MB is he is trying to build a team that contends for the cup year in year out for a 4-5-6 year window, not just one year and have to tear it down. If you start on short term fixes, it costs in future assets and puts roadblocks in front of the guys ready to(or close) to stepping in. That window will be wide open in about 2 years once Tinordi Galchenyuk Beaulieu Gallagher etc are in their prime.

The "window" philosophy is extremely flawed. For when (if) Tinordi and Beaulieu are in their "prime", you will have lost the prime of other key players like Pleks, Markov, Prust etc.

And waiting for the window to open, key players on the team "could" be injured and lost for the season, as we saw with Emelin.

Then what? You wait for three years sitting pat for the golden opportunity of a "window" to open and then see it slammed shut because of injuries or other players signed to a contract losing their skill level because they are older.

It is foolish to continue to manage a team for the future while ignoring the present. That philosophy is a loser's approach.

It's been 20 long years since the Habs have won a Cup. I think its about time that this organization starts to try to win one in the present season.

And the roster we have as of today, with our D as it is today, is completely incapable of even getting close to the Cup finals, much less winning one.

But I do agree, Diaz is cheap. And we all know what cheap gets you.........

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07-26-2013, 04:44 PM
  #183
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I already said it before, but now is the time to re-sign Diaz for 2-3 years. He won't be expensive, and I'm confident he'll develop nicely into a great top-4 D that will compensate for Markov's slowing down.

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07-26-2013, 06:33 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Even without PP time you can still see Emelin's point puckhandling 5 on 5. I'm sure playing on the PP would help his points, but again it's not about criticizing Emelin, he simply isn't on the same level as Diaz offensively(mobility, vision, puck skills).
Agree to disagree, anyway I hope Emelin is okay and back by Christmas. I hope he sees PP time too.


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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The "window" philosophy is extremely flawed. For when (if) Tinordi and Beaulieu are in their "prime", you will have lost the prime of other key players like Pleks, Markov, Prust etc.

And waiting for the window to open, key players on the team "could" be injured and lost for the season, as we saw with Emelin.

Then what? You wait for three years sitting pat for the golden opportunity of a "window" to open and then see it slammed shut because of injuries or other players signed to a contract losing their skill level because they are older.

It is foolish to continue to manage a team for the future while ignoring the present. That philosophy is a loser's approach.

It's been 20 long years since the Habs have won a Cup. I think its about time that this organization starts to try to win one in the present season.

And the roster we have as of today, with our D as it is today, is completely incapable of even getting close to the Cup finals, much less winning one.

But I do agree, Diaz is cheap. And we all know what cheap gets you.........
I agree, all that "window" talk also irks me, and smells of indecisiveness and fear, appreciate your good challenge.

(Now someone will straw man argue to the extreme such as "So you want to trade all our picks and prospects for old guys so we can take a run at the cup one year then be screwed for a decade?"

That's not how it is. Find a balance, we finished high last season we should aim to finish higher this season, not wait and try to do well in 2016 as some have suggested, I realize this is a prospects-focused site but come on guys. Every team has picks and prospects coming up.

Oh and to topic, I like Diaz but not if Markov, Gorges and Bouillon and also on our D-corps.

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07-26-2013, 07:26 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Craig71 View Post
[/B]

This This This Boom Boom Boom!!!! There will be those that will discard what you say and will simply use the excuse that our Habs ran out of gas and that a 15th place over achieving team came crashing back to earth. I am sick of a small team that gets beat around like Ottawa did to us in the playoffs and like the Bs and Leafs did to us. I don't hate small finesse players but I would like a balance of both, would'nt we all? I too feel that Bergevin has to change this team around and needs to better the team now and not 3 years from now. I would not have signed DD or Briere and many other moves that are not on Bergevin, but thats just my opinion. The team needs a physical D so lets address it, even if it means trading away Raphael Subban.
Habs started struggling because Price completely collapsed and two of our three top lines simply didn't produce as much. We scored 12 goals between MaxPac, Plek, Ryder, Gionta, Bourque and DD. Not sure how you're gonna win much with so little scoring and extremely weak goaltending.
To make it all worse, we lost a big part of our physicality on our back end, but in no way was Emelin the reason for our struggles. It's more of a coincidence than anything else.

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07-26-2013, 07:57 PM
  #186
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Habs started struggling because Price completely collapsed and two of our three top lines simply didn't produce as much. We scored 12 goals between MaxPac, Plek, Ryder, Gionta, Bourque and DD. Not sure how you're gonna win much with so little scoring and extremely weak goaltending.
To make it all worse, we lost a big part of our physicality on our back end, but in no way was Emelin the reason for our struggles. It's more of a coincidence than anything else.
More just a matter of one more thing that we couldn't afford to lose from the collective group. Lost the finish, lost the absolute top-notch goaltending, lost the most physical of the defensemen...

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07-26-2013, 08:02 PM
  #187
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Ahahaha a Diaz appreciation thread.

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07-26-2013, 08:06 PM
  #188
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Ahahaha a Diaz appreciation thread.
??

He's a good defenseman who bring interesting two-way play with a good transition game (which seems pretty crucial in the new system) and he's good on the PP, so I'm looking forward seeing him on the team next season, he's really not what's wrong on the D squad.

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07-26-2013, 09:12 PM
  #189
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Habs started struggling because Price completely collapsed and two of our three top lines simply didn't produce as much. We scored 12 goals between MaxPac, Plek, Ryder, Gionta, Bourque and DD. Not sure how you're gonna win much with so little scoring and extremely weak goaltending.
To make it all worse, we lost a big part of our physicality on our back end, but in no way was Emelin the reason for our struggles. It's more of a coincidence than anything else.
Many good scoring plays start with good defense and forwards are only as good as the guys feeding them the puck. Every great NHL team has strong D with a mix of puck movers and physical D like Emelin. It was the end for us when he went down and the sad thing is, no one realized his value till he was gone. He was also the only defenseman of his style that played for us and when we could not replace that lacking element of our game, everything else fell apart. Simply put, we lacked physical defensive depth and as of July 26th, we still do.

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07-26-2013, 10:12 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Craig71 View Post
Many good scoring plays start with good defense and forwards are only as good as the guys feeding them the puck. Every great NHL team has strong D with a mix of puck movers and physical D like Emelin. It was the end for us when he went down and the sad thing is, no one realized his value till he was gone. He was also the only defenseman of his style that played for us and when we could not replace that lacking element of our game, everything else fell apart. Simply put, we lacked physical defensive depth and as of July 26th, we still do.
Perhaps management feels that we have replacements inside the organization ready to step up? (Tinordi, Pateryn)

Also keep in mind that our roster is full and we have ~600K in cap space. We are done making moves imo.

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07-26-2013, 10:15 PM
  #191
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what's there to appreciate? He's nothing more than an AHL skilled dman.

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07-26-2013, 10:29 PM
  #192
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Well someone is going to be banned soon.

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07-27-2013, 11:26 AM
  #193
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Well someone is going to be banned soon.
Nailed it.

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07-27-2013, 11:31 AM
  #194
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People have short memory of how effective Diaz is. His value is only going up with more games he plays.

He might be that piece (Diaz +) to get us some much needed wing depth. Though only if we can replace him internally, which will probably the case sometime soon.

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07-27-2013, 12:17 PM
  #195
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Ahahaha a Diaz appreciation thread.
This is where I'd post that billy Madison vid about how much dumber we are for having read this

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Nailed it.
hahaha

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07-27-2013, 03:05 PM
  #196
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This is where I'd post that billy Madison vid about how much dumber we are for having read this
That probably would have been one of your better posts had you done so.

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07-27-2013, 03:35 PM
  #197
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Many good scoring plays start with good defense and forwards are only as good as the guys feeding them the puck. Every great NHL team has strong D with a mix of puck movers and physical D like Emelin. It was the end for us when he went down and the sad thing is, no one realized his value till he was gone. He was also the only defenseman of his style that played for us and when we could not replace that lacking element of our game, everything else fell apart. Simply put, we lacked physical defensive depth and as of July 26th, we still do.
No. Emelin was not the piece that hold the whole club together, that is just foolish thinking.
He is not the reason Price couldn't stop a puck anymore. I understand the lack of physicality from our back end, but that is in no way why we stumbled.

I agree that defense plays a big part in the transition game from defense to offense but Emelin was never a puck mover to begin with.

We were starting to struggle up front before Emelin went down, and coincidentally, Price just couldn't stop a puck anymore. A lot of the games we lost we weren't dominated by our opponents. We sometimes actually dominated them but couldn't score enough, mix that with Price going through his own struggles, so it all started to crumble.

Emelin was not the piece holding it all together just because he could push a few players away. He's not on the ice for the whole game, if he was so crucial then he would have been on the ice for a lot more and we would have lost a lot more games throughout the year.

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07-27-2013, 03:48 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
No. Emelin was not the piece that hold the whole club together, that is just foolish thinking.
He is not the reason Price couldn't stop a puck anymore. I understand the lack of physicality from our back end, but that is in no way why we stumbled.

I agree that defense plays a big part in the transition game from defense to offense but Emelin was never a puck mover to begin with.

We were starting to struggle up front before Emelin went down, and coincidentally, Price just couldn't stop a puck anymore. A lot of the games we lost we weren't dominated by our opponents. We sometimes actually dominated them but couldn't score enough, mix that with Price going through his own struggles, so it all started to crumble.

Emelin was not the piece holding it all together just because he could push a few players away. He's not on the ice for the whole game, if he was so crucial then he would have been on the ice for a lot more and we would have lost a lot more games throughout the year.
Every team in the league has struggles and someone else has to step up when things go dry for certain players, it's what depth does for you. We have lacked a true offensive firepower line for as long as I can remember and hopefully a maturing Galchenyuk and a consistent Pacioretty can remedy that.

Emelin was the key physical piece on a fairly non physical D core and when he was gone that part of our game was gone. Davis Drewiske certainly could'nt fill his shoes, so it was obvious that Bergevin valued Emelins ability and tried to compliment it, albeit unsuccessfully. We need another Emelin and of course we need Price to stop the puck, he's paid like a top goalie so it's time to play like one.

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07-27-2013, 04:46 PM
  #199
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That probably would have been one of your better posts had you done so.
iphone...

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07-28-2013, 11:08 AM
  #200
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Diaz is a lot like DD for me, I don't mind him individually, but he's just a bad fit for this club imo.

LOL at the poster saying he could be our next Markov, I appreciate the extreme optimism, but there is no chance of that happening, zero.

I'd like DD and Diaz more if they played somewhere else.

Our next Markov, I spit my coffee out laughing at that, thanks for the laugh.

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