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Old
07-28-2013, 10:09 AM
  #76
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calad View Post
He's like our 8th-9th D, whats unreasonable about that?
If #9 is his legit depth chart position, then nothing. That comment made it look like he's the primary emergency call-up, which is... bad.

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Old
07-28-2013, 10:27 AM
  #77
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What if Gleason was going to the Rags, and MDZ was coming to the Avs?

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Old
07-28-2013, 12:45 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by avsman View Post
What if Gleason was going to the Rags, and MDZ was coming to the Avs?
The Rangers need a right handed shot and offense from the blueline, so you suggest we trade our best offensive d-man for an older, left-handed shot guy who doesn't really put up any offense to speak of?

The Rangers are not moving Del Zotto. Please don't mistake the idiocy of a small but prolific group of HF Rangers fans with the plans of the actual team.

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Old
07-28-2013, 02:12 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by AslanRH View Post
Boring time of year, just a thought.

NYR: Strength at LHD (McDonagh, MDZ, Staal), seem to need a top 6 LW
Canes: Have strength in the top 6, but are trying to improve their defense (and they need another Staal), rumor is they are looking for more cap space
Avs: Need to upgrade on LD and have Elliott who is very similar to Barrie as a PMD/RD. Could also use more depth at RW


Marc Staal (LD)


Jiri Tlusty (LW)
Stefan Elliott (RD)
Avs 2014 1st



Tim Gleason (LD)
Zac Dalpe (C/RW)

Ready...
Set...
Tear it apart!
carolina will wait for marc to become a free agent, why would anyone want dalpe???

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Old
07-28-2013, 02:49 PM
  #80
Kris Chreider
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Originally Posted by avsman View Post
What if Gleason was going to the Rags, and MDZ was coming to the Avs?
What if I bastardized your team's name?

But no thanks. Gleason's overpaid and we still need to sign Zuccarello and Stepan.

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Old
07-28-2013, 04:48 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Frank Booth23 View Post
The answer is:IDK what planet you live on, but the planet I live on is where when THREE of your brothers are in the same organization, you naturally want to go play with them.

Oh, wait, wait. Marc "hates" Eric for giving him a concussion. Did he say that? The answer is no.

You may see a straight up trade like Skinner for Marc to get him early. But I'll eat my hat if we see Rutherford gutting a team that desperately needs everyone it already has to get him.
I think you meant to say "Yes, what I'm saying is based entirely on speculation and personal opinion, and Marc has never said he wants out of NY to play in Carolina."

No one besides Marc Staal knows where he wants to take his career, or how heavily his brothers playing together weighs on what he wants to do with his own career. To state all of this "naturally" nonsense is starting to sound silly. It's not embedded in his DNA that he must be within 50 feet of his family members at all times; he's a grown man with a life of his own. I know this might sound a little crazy to you with all your "naturally" notions, but maybe continually being surrounded by his brothers isn't something he wants in his professional life. Maybe he enjoys being and playing in NY and maybe he wants to continue his career there.

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Old
07-29-2013, 04:19 AM
  #82
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Marc Staal

1st (COL)

prospect



Stastny

Tlusty

2nd (CAR)



Gleason

2nd (NYR)

Hagelin

Broken Down



outgoing: Hagelin, 1st, Staal
incoming: Stastny, Tlusty, 2nd(CAR)



Outgoing: stastny
incoming: Hagelin, 2nd, Gleason



outgoing: Gleason, Tlusty, 2nd
incoming: Staal, 1st(COL)(Top 10 protected), Prospect


Last edited by Nazem To Kessel: 07-29-2013 at 04:32 AM.
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Old
07-29-2013, 06:37 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
1- Don't see the connection to the first quote box with all comment directed to my quote.

2:


Not only can we, my friend, we have to, because we are still catching up from prior crappy drafts. That, though is open to interpretation, I admit, based on how much you think we need to improve the club. If you are good enough w/Rangers in the status quo, you can toe the line a bit longer. I for one prefer to take improvement at most opportunities, because windows to make deals open and close all the time, and the deal you can make next month, you have to risk you can do better than the one you can do this month.

But what is not open to interpretation, as I noted, is how the cap will push us to move our vets.

That doesn't mean we have to 'blow up everything' all at once.
But it does mean we need a controlled demolition on a couple of assets -- those vets --- as soon as the return is favorably high. And if we have to bundle other assets to get the best deal possible, that's okay too as long as we get good or better value coming back the other way on such other assets.


If we are not moving MDZ/Moore to RD, or trading one, we have an extra LD w/McD + Staal. Sure, there are injuries, insurance, etc, but that's what we got guys like Aaron Johnson for. So the fit is too tight if you don't wanna waste --- or under use and overpay --- for a certain asset.

I'm flexibile, we could move MDZ, let Staal prove his MAX value and we are good until cap forces him to go. With Skjei on the way, that's an option. But given the position the AVs are in, they might well move a prime prospect for a prime asset if we provide conditional guarantee. MDZ will command, but not as high as Staal.



Preaching to the choir. Amen.


I view Gaby and Torts as connected, but able to be disconnected. So there were good and bad moves for keeping or trading Gaby. Torts had to go.
I hope you're the one who gets to break the news to Hank that his oldest friends and best players on the Rangers are moving so that we can accommodate unproven rookies who haven't even seen NHL ice. The Clowe trade should be proof enough that this team is willing to trade future assets for a current run, not the other way around.

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Old
07-29-2013, 09:37 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapleleafs81 View Post


Marc Staal

1st (COL)

prospect



Stastny

Tlusty

2nd (CAR)



Gleason

2nd (NYR)

Hagelin

Broken Down



outgoing: Hagelin, 1st, Staal
incoming: Stastny, Tlusty, 2nd(CAR)



Outgoing: stastny
incoming: Hagelin, 2nd, Gleason



outgoing: Gleason, Tlusty, 2nd
incoming: Staal, 1st(COL)(Top 10 protected), Prospect
Nope.

Don't want Stastny, and in regards to this deal, I'd pass on Tlusty. Especially not at the expense of Staal and Hagelin not to mention the 1st.

I like Tlusty and would be one of the few Rangers fans that would welcome in a deal for Staal. But it would have to be Staal for Tlusty, Murphy and a 1st in 2014.

Tlusty doesn't carry the value of a top pairing defenceman regardless of the season he had.

Murphy is a prospect that has as many questions as he does answers.

The first is always nice, but still a crap shoot outside of the top 5.

Stastny is a solid 2nd line center. But the cap hit is to much and the fact that he's a UFA after this season is a flat out deal killer.

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Old
07-29-2013, 09:49 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by mapleleafs81 View Post

Broken Down



outgoing: Hagelin, 1st, Staal
incoming: Stastny, Tlusty, 2nd(CAR)
You are joking right?
Rangers are NOT giving up elite shutdown dman, elite possession/fast/young winger and a first rd pick (this one takes the cake) for overpaid Center in Stasny, a flash in the pants Tlusty who won't be shooting 20% ever again in his career, and a 2nd.
You have no idea what you are doing, you should keep your proposals to the Leafs and just stop making proposals about teams you know nothing about.

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Old
07-29-2013, 10:21 AM
  #86
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He posted the stuff wrong, the 1st is coming from Colorado and I'm not sure it's worth it from our end... especially since NYR doesn't have a 2nd to give us.

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Old
07-29-2013, 10:47 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapleleafs81 View Post


Marc Staal

1st (COL)

prospect



Stastny

Tlusty

2nd (CAR)



Gleason

2nd (NYR)

Hagelin

Broken Down



outgoing: Hagelin, 1st, Staal
incoming: Stastny, Tlusty, 2nd(CAR)



Outgoing: stastny
incoming: Hagelin, 2nd, Gleason



outgoing: Gleason, Tlusty, 2nd
incoming: Staal, 1st(COL)(Top 10 protected), Prospect
That's not too bad. NYR is giving up the best player. They'd probably want to have a chat with Stastny to gauge his interest in staying in NY.

IF there is any feeling that Staal may leave after next season, something like this could work. If Staal wants to stay in NY, it should be an easy no from NY.

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Old
07-29-2013, 12:20 PM
  #88
vipernsx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
No, Tlusty had a fantastic year. He was first put with Staal the February before the lockout. He put up 18 points in 27 games, including a 9-game point streak.

Then this past year, Semin was added to the line, and he put up 38 points in 48 games.

In other words, since he started playing in the Top 6, he's put up 56 points in 75 games. Sounds like a fantastic season to me.
So he's had solid parts of 2 seasons. Mostly because of good chemistry with one of the leagues elite players, not because he's an elite player himself. Were there not injuries in Carolina's lineup, would Tlusty have even gotten the shot at a top6 role?

In 80 career NHL games, Mats Zuccarello has put up 41pts though I'm not going to claim he's a .5pp/g player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWAD View Post
Tlusty scored more points than all but Stepan last season, and scored more goals than all six of them.
Semin and Staal are among two of the most talented players in the league. Put any well rounded player with them and they're going to put up some points.

Tlusty isn't a bad player, he's just not the top6, better than .5pp/g that some perceive from his aggregate statistics. He's a well rounded 3rd liner who can play top6 minutes when needed. A well rounded 3rd liner, isn't what the Rangers need and baring some terrible news about his facial injury, they're not worth Marc Staal one of the elite defensive defenseman in the league.

Start talking Faulk and a lottery pick and the discussion about Staal can move forward, just like Jordan. Until then, I think it's a dead issue.

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Old
07-29-2013, 12:24 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
...
Quote:
I hope you're the one who gets to break the news to Hank that his oldest friends and best players on the Rangers are moving so that we can accommodate unproven rookies who haven't even seen NHL ice.
Hank, I am personally responsible for suggesting that rather than wait to the last minute and get nothing for our vets, who we will ultimately HAVE to move anyway because of the cap, that we move them for younger guys with a decently high expectation of success, as soon as a good opportunity for such deals is clear.

I know some of these players are your pals, but I know ya wanna win, and unlike you, some of these guys won't be here in 7 or 8 years. Winning is not the only thing. But it is why the games are played, and what we should be planning --- certainly not the opposite, how to lose.

So I trust you can concur when I suggest taking a step backward today to go multiple steps forwards in the short term.

Since I expect you get that it's more about the fans than the players, I was not too worried.

Sincerely,

Bernmeister


Quote:
The Clowe trade should be proof enough that this team is willing to trade future assets for a current run, not the other way around.
Clowe trade should never have been made since there have been doubts about Clowe being able to keep up for the last year + and this is a speed team. The deal was obviously made because Sather smartly wanted to give Torts enough rope with which to hang himself.

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Old
07-29-2013, 12:48 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
...
Quote:
Accidental, didn't realize I quoted it.
No big whoop, just addressing because it was there.

Quote:
No, YOU CAN'T because then our franchise player and best goaltender in the history of this club and the current best goaltender in the world would want to walk out on this team and there's not a living soul who can blame him as he wants to win a damn cup before he retires and won't with your mindset.
That's an assumption that the best G in the world views his inner circle as more important than winning. And we have to develop the rest of the club anyway, regardless of how good our G is.

Our fans have to realize yes, we have a good team, but it is NOT enough.
We do not have the proverbial horses to win.
We need to improve both the quantity and quality of our good players.

This will only happen when:
enough great drafting has a cumulative effect (see Hawks)
great trades improve the roster
we luck out on certain x factors

We can't luck out by force of will, by definition.
Great trades --- ok, we can make an improve here, there, that's all good. But those improves are marginal. You can't hope for continued swindles aka Gomez for McD.

That leaves drafting. But that takes time. Only way to defeat that is to pay a premium with a vet for MULTIPLES of prospects, with reasonable hope, no guarantee you wind up with MULTIPLES of better players. Development of these players takes time, but you get a guy who has already had a couple of years development, it helps accelerate the process a bit.

Also, you are shedding cap.
That gives you FA options/leverage for trades.

Quote:
Like who? Who needs to go aside from the obvious Beaver, who is a cap casualty?
As I believe I said, NOBODY needs to go IMMEDIATELY.
ALL our older vets need to go at some point soon.

You can tell who fits the bill - Hank/Nash - not moving, that leaves'
Girardi/Staal/Callahan


Quote:
This makes no sense. We deal Moore, MDZ, or Staal because the fit is too tight??? That's just awful asset management.
I'm not talking rocket science here.
We have an extra, we either use him on the right side or keep as insurance (which is expensive and causes cap problems) or we move for an asset needed elsewhere. Staal should be the one because he is oldest vet w/higher salary AND has most to offer in return atm.


Quote:
Why are you talking about Skjei like he's even in the cards in the next 2-3 years? He's not. You're basing these hypothetical scenarios on a guy like Skjei stepping in and eating up minutes? Have you gone mad? The kid hasn't even played a professional game yet. You're just completely out of reason right now.
Calm down. Read what I said carefully. All I implied was that we are fortunate to have Skjei in the mix for down the road. I don't remember I said that was 2 years, 4 years or any other specific time. Having an asset like that already in the system makes it easier to have an ongoing plan. Staal would be like a now move. MDZ could be a next year move, depending upon what we get back. Even if there is a stop gap, if a Skjei could be available shortly after MDZ is moved [and we are assuming he is only moved, by definition, for assets that improve us and make the move worth while], that helps than if we did not have an asset like Skjei.


Quote:
Torts should have went before Gaborik was traded. We had 2 40-goal threats and a team that could roll two different lines that could kill you on any night and the coach STILL couldn't manage the slightest bit of offense with it. A credit to his awful and outdated system. We were a couple of good bottom 6 players and a 6th/7th defender away from a cup.

Now, we're right back where we started.
I retain an open mind on theoretical trading Gaby and what we could get for him as to whether or not we should have kept him based on any specific return.

Torts should have gone WAY before.

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Old
07-29-2013, 01:53 PM
  #91
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Canes dont want to give up Tlusty. Especially since there is no conclusive evidence of how Marc Staal will be as a player after his eye injury. I'd like the Canes to get him since they really lack a shut down D, but dont have anyone else who seems to be able to play on the first line with Staal and Semin. Certainly not for what Jiri is making.

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Old
07-29-2013, 02:20 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post

Tlusty isn't a bad player, he's just not the top6, better than .5pp/g that some perceive from his aggregate statistics. He's a well rounded 3rd liner who can play top6 minutes when needed. A well rounded 3rd liner, isn't what the Rangers need and baring some terrible news about his facial injury, they're not worth Marc Staal one of the elite defensive defenseman in the league.
In what world is the player who was tied for 5th in League goal scoring a "well rounded 3rd liner who can play top 6 minutes when needed."? What could you possibly be basing this off of?

'Canes fans (and I) don't care that Rangers fans wouldn't trade Marc Staal for Tlusty + whoever. What 'Canes fans (and I) take offense to is this bashing of Tlusty. The guy scored more goals than anyone on your entire team and is excellent defensively, yet he isn't a top 6 player?

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Old
07-29-2013, 02:34 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
So he's had solid parts of 2 seasons. Mostly because of good chemistry with one of the leagues elite players, not because he's an elite player himself. Were there not injuries in Carolina's lineup, would Tlusty have even gotten the shot at a top6 role?

In 80 career NHL games, Mats Zuccarello has put up 41pts though I'm not going to claim he's a .5pp/g player.


Semin and Staal are among two of the most talented players in the league. Put any well rounded player with them and they're going to put up some points.

Tlusty isn't a bad player, he's just not the top6, better than .5pp/g that some perceive from his aggregate statistics. He's a well rounded 3rd liner who can play top6 minutes when needed. A well rounded 3rd liner, isn't what the Rangers need and baring some terrible news about his facial injury, they're not worth Marc Staal one of the elite defensive defenseman in the league.
Who are the six forwards on the Rangers you would play ahead of Tlusty?

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Old
07-29-2013, 02:35 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
In what world is the player who was tied for 5th in League goal scoring a "well rounded 3rd liner who can play top 6 minutes when needed."? What could you possibly be basing this off of?

'Canes fans (and I) don't care that Rangers fans wouldn't trade Marc Staal for Tlusty + whoever. What 'Canes fans (and I) take offense to is this bashing of Tlusty. The guy scored more goals than anyone on your entire team and is excellent defensively, yet he isn't a top 6 player?
I think you must be reading your stats wrong. How could a team chock full of first ballot HOF'ers like the Rangers are, not have a single person outscore Tlusty? I think what you mean is that everyone on their team outscored Jiri.

I mean, they're so deep that they had Brad Richards on the 4th line in the playoffs and had him as a healthy scratch a few times as well.

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07-29-2013, 02:35 PM
  #95
Brock Anton
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I like Tlusty and would be one of the few Rangers fans that would welcome in a deal for Staal. But it would have to be Staal for Tlusty, Murphy and a 1st in 2014.

Tlusty doesn't carry the value of a top pairing defenceman regardless of the season he had.

Murphy is a prospect that has as many questions as he does answers.

The first is always nice, but still a crap shoot outside of the top 5.
If Tlusty is ok, Murphy a question mark, and the 1st a complete crap shoot... why would you want them? What happened to 'proven pieces'?

Anyways, we're not giving up all three for Marc Staal. Sorry. I get that's what you want, but nobody is going to give you that. At this moment it's not worth it. A year or two ago? Absolutely. But now? Not a chance, when a defenseman comes out and says that he's likely never going to get full vision in his eye again, that's a huge red flag.

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07-29-2013, 02:39 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
In what world is the player who was tied for 5th in League goal scoring a "well rounded 3rd liner who can play top 6 minutes when needed."? What could you possibly be basing this off of?

'Canes fans (and I) don't care that Rangers fans wouldn't trade Marc Staal for Tlusty + whoever. What 'Canes fans (and I) take offense to is this bashing of Tlusty. The guy scored more goals than anyone on your entire team and is excellent defensively, yet he isn't a top 6 player?
The real world.
Tlusty is a 7 year veteran, so we have a lot of data about him.
We saw his shooting % jump 80% in one season, from 12% to 20% last season, can you spell puck luck?
Based on his history, last season was a fluke, he needs to confirm with another strong season, before he can be labelled anything but a 3rd liner.
And i don't want Staal traded period.

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07-29-2013, 02:51 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
The real world.
Tlusty is a 7 year veteran, so we have a lot of data about him.
We saw his shooting % jump 80% in one season, from 12% to 20% last season, can you spell puck luck?
Based on his history, last season was a fluke, he needs to confirm with another strong season, before he can be labelled anything but a 3rd liner.
And i don't want Staal traded period.
His shooting percentage is probably going to come down. So what?

He got 113 shots on goal (actually 117, but he also scored 4 empty net goals). Assuming a shooting % of 13%, that turns into 14.69 goals over 48 games. Which rounds to 25 goals over 82 games.

Is that not top 6 material? That would put him on the same level of goal scoring as players like Jiri Hudler, Valterri Filpulla and Ray Whitney.

This is all assuming that his shooting % comes down to 13% or 12%.

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07-29-2013, 03:13 PM
  #98
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Tlusty is at 13.8% now and he isn't really going to deviate from that very much considering he averages about 70 shots a year.

If you take his 79 GP season he had 136 shots and shot 12.5%. If you assume he's going to keep that up.... he'll average 17 goals a year (which is borderline 2/3 liner depending on team). If you take his career shot totals - he averages 9 goals a season.

It's more likely he's a 12-13 goals a year player.

If he somehow manages to defy all realistic expectations then good for him and good for Canes fans. Some of us are just a little bit skeptical of his recent surge in ability.

It's fair to question him just like its fair for you to question Marc's ability to come back from an eye injury.

Bottom line Rangers fans don't want a 'fluke' player and the Canes don't want to trade him for a guy with 'one good eye'. I think we all can agree with that. If Marc decides he wants to play with his brothers then so be it - doesn't really bother me at all.

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Old
07-29-2013, 03:27 PM
  #99
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i don't care what some guy or some within a fan base think of jiri tlusty at all.

the hurricanes and their fans like jiri and i doubt the team moves him any time soon. they have been building a nice forward group and have improved their defense some.

there's no doubt that the canes still have a couple of important holes to fill but i don't see anything here thats not a lateral move.

as for marc staal. it's still unknown how the injury will affect him. if he wants to play in carolina he will likely be there as soon as he becomes a fa. the canes have other options in the mean time and can wait for marc.

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07-29-2013, 04:23 PM
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vipernsx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWAD View Post
Who are the six forwards on the Rangers you would play ahead of Tlusty?
Read the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
In what world is the player who was tied for 5th in League goal scoring a "well rounded 3rd liner who can play top 6 minutes when needed."? What could you possibly be basing this off of?

'Canes fans (and I) don't care that Rangers fans wouldn't trade Marc Staal for Tlusty + whoever. What 'Canes fans (and I) take offense to is this bashing of Tlusty. The guy scored more goals than anyone on your entire team and is excellent defensively, yet he isn't a top 6 player?
I'm not Tlusty Bashing, he's a solid player, he's just not nearly as good as James Neal, Rick Nash, Phil Kessel, Thomas Vanek, Eric Staal, Zach Parise, or any number of other players who he scored more goals than during a lockout shortened season. When he puts up those kinds of stats in a full 82 game season, I'll be a believer. Until then, I'm not buying it.

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