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Phoenix XCVIII: 5tayin' Alive

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07-27-2013, 07:17 PM
  #276
Fugu
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
So. v-bucks Whileee. Gotta be good for somethin right? We really should visit that page/board, talk to Admin over there, might be fun huh? Over/under. When does RSE start demanding minimums on ST's subscriptions etc? Seriously. We should expand the field here. Broaden our horizons.
I could set it up for you, I have the buttons.... I just try to avoid that section of HF figuring I'd break something when it's time to pay out.


(It's also good to pretend you don't know how to run that stuff lest someone get the bright idea to ask for help.)

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07-27-2013, 07:29 PM
  #277
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I think that resolution passed by the COG only comes into effect after 30 days, since it wasn't passed as an emergency.
Yes it does as the public currently has an opportunity to gather signatures to attempt to overturn it. At least one person I know of is attempting to do at the moment.

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07-27-2013, 07:41 PM
  #278
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I could set it up for you, I have the buttons....
... thats ok. Ive never won a bet, absolutely nothing ever when gamblings involved. I just dont bother. Only game of chance Im any good at is Hearts. And that does require some skill, intelligence with chance. Rest of it? Nope. Money gone. Total loser.

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07-27-2013, 08:52 PM
  #279
OthmarAmmann
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
I think that resolution passed by the COG only comes into effect after 30 days, since it wasn't passed as an emergency. I think it is to be expected that the closing would be at least 30 days after the council meeting. I expect this to close in early August and the Coyotes will be off to the races.
With an $85 million count down clock

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07-27-2013, 09:26 PM
  #280
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With an $85 million count down clock
Digital or analogue?

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07-27-2013, 09:58 PM
  #281
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Digital or analogue?
Sundial.

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07-27-2013, 10:18 PM
  #282
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Is there a reason the latest group of charlatan's hasn't closed on this fantastic NHL opportunity in the desert or is August 4th still the mystical date when snow fairy's fly in with heaping bags of Canadian loonies.
One word: Suspense. The players in this saga know all about dramatic pacing. It's been a helluva run. They gotta keep the audience entertained and rivetted especially in a quasi-lull like now.

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07-27-2013, 10:28 PM
  #283
Killion
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Sundial.
Cool. Shadows & Light.

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07-28-2013, 03:05 PM
  #284
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Craig Morgan ‏@cmorganfoxaz 54m
#NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly expects the Board of Governors to approve the #Coyotes sale some time this week.

Craig Morgan ‏@cmorganfoxaz 44m
As for completion of the #Coyotes sale, #NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said it is "still moving" forward.

.......
so it could be approved yet not close? i figured approval happened before ice edge even got there, this all seems like a convoluted mess now. why would the nhl allow things to get this far before approval? i know its all been covered and answered here over the past few months, but it still boggles.

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07-28-2013, 04:41 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Craig Morgan ‏@cmorganfoxaz 54m
#NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly expects the Board of Governors to approve the #Coyotes sale some time this week.

Craig Morgan ‏@cmorganfoxaz 44m
As for completion of the #Coyotes sale, #NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said it is "still moving" forward.

.......
so it could be approved yet not close? i figured approval happened before ice edge even got there, this all seems like a convoluted mess now. why would the nhl allow things to get this far before approval? i know its all been covered and answered here over the past few months, but it still boggles.
Once again, we see the example we've discussed about the BoG and how it can pretty much be predicted when the BoG will "rubber stamp" stuff like this: Daly didn't say "they'll get together and vote on it this week, and we hope that we'll get agreement", imply at the very least there SOME form of uncertainty-he said "we expect it will get approved this week".

And I agree it boggles the mind how they operate-wouldn't be interesting if they approved and once again they deal WASNT closed?

Very much unlikely, I know, but would be par for the course....

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07-28-2013, 04:49 PM
  #286
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Very much unlikely, I know, but would be par for the course....
... pretty much. Would be hilarious though if any number of them told Gary no way. Not approving this. You out of your mind?

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07-28-2013, 06:52 PM
  #287
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... pretty much. Would be hilarious though if any number of them told Gary no way. Not approving this. You out of your mind?
If this one is unanimous it will settle the answer does Bettman work for the owners or do the owners work for Bettman

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07-28-2013, 07:37 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Craig Morgan ‏@cmorganfoxaz 54m
#NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly expects the Board of Governors to approve the #Coyotes sale some time this week.

Craig Morgan ‏@cmorganfoxaz 44m
As for completion of the #Coyotes sale, #NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said it is "still moving" forward.

.......
so it could be approved yet not close? i figured approval happened before ice edge even got there, this all seems like a convoluted mess now. why would the nhl allow things to get this far before approval? i know its all been covered and answered here over the past few months, but it still boggles.
If I were a Coyotes fans, this wouldn't exactly fill me with confidence...only 1 week to go.

imho they don't have the money yet

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07-28-2013, 08:08 PM
  #289
Killion
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If this one is unanimous it will settle the answer does Bettman work for the owners or do the owners work for Bettman
Ya. Like he's got carte blanche. Policys thrown right out the window, financing the purchase themselves, getting into bed with a bank of last resort in Fortress, reputedly a number of the minority owners in for a whopping million each... just incredible.

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07-28-2013, 08:14 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Craig Morgan ‏@cmorganfoxaz 54m
#NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly expects the Board of Governors to approve the #Coyotes sale some time this week.

Craig Morgan ‏@cmorganfoxaz 44m
As for completion of the #Coyotes sale, #NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said it is "still moving" forward.

.......
so it could be approved yet not close? i figured approval happened before ice edge even got there, this all seems like a convoluted mess now. why would the nhl allow things to get this far before approval? i know its all been covered and answered here over the past few months, but it still boggles.
Agreed one would think this should be a lock especially the $$ they've spent in free agency this year


Quote:
Craig Morgan‏@cmorganfoxaz
More accurately, Daly said he will "seek" BOG approval this week.
Doesn't seem in much of an endorsement. When the Thrashers were sold to TSNE 2 years ago, Bettman's comment regarding the subsequent BOG vote was along the line of 'shouldn't be a problem'.

Well no one can really accuse this saga from being dull.

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07-28-2013, 08:48 PM
  #291
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It is probably worth remembering that this deal is quite a bit different than the one originally proposed by RSE. The main difference is that they are now compelled to pay back any of the COG's losses (from the AMF) if they use the "out clause" in five years. That adds a fair bit of risk. If projections of ticket sales and parking revenues fall very short, then the RSE's own losses will be exacerbated by the requirement to pay the COG's losses. In addition, it's not clear how much they will be paying Global Spectrum for their services. Altogether, it seems quite likely that the liabilities in five years will start to approach their initial investment.

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Old
07-28-2013, 09:09 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
Agreed one would think this should be a lock especially the $$ they've spent in free agency this year




Doesn't seem in much of an endorsement. When the Thrashers were sold to TSNE 2 years ago, Bettman's comment regarding the subsequent BOG vote was along the line of 'shouldn't be a problem'.

Well no one can really accuse this saga from being dull.
I remember Daly saying he would have been surprised if the TNSE vote wasn't unanimous. Although in that case there was a $60 million relocation fee coming in as opposed to $85 million credit facility going out.

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07-28-2013, 10:01 PM
  #293
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If I were a Coyotes fans, this wouldn't exactly fill me with confidence...only 1 week to go.

imho they don't have the money yet

Coyote fans pretty much know that nothing has happened. And unless someone gets the "keys" to the franchise, the NHL still owns our team.

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Old
07-28-2013, 10:16 PM
  #294
Fugu
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Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post

Craig Morgan‏@cmorganfoxaz
More accurately, Daly said he will "seek" BOG approval this week.


Well no one can really accuse this saga from being dull.
I think that's a confirmation that the financing, persons involved, and amounts have been in flux this entire time. Secondly, as Whileee points out below, the deal itself has changed, with risk assessment needed both for the ownership structure and liabilities and how that affects the NHL-- who are putting in $85 MM interest-free for five years.

Far from done at this point methinks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
It is probably worth remembering that this deal is quite a bit different than the one originally proposed by RSE. The main difference is that they are now compelled to pay back any of the COG's losses (from the AMF) if they use the "out clause" in five years. That adds a fair bit of risk. If projections of ticket sales and parking revenues fall very short, then the RSE's own losses will be exacerbated by the requirement to pay the COG's losses. In addition, it's not clear how much they will be paying Global Spectrum for their services. Altogether, it seems quite likely that the liabilities in five years will start to approach their initial investment.
It's really very difficult to see how they could possibly make any money.

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07-28-2013, 10:39 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think that's a confirmation that the financing, persons involved, and amounts have been in flux this entire time. Secondly, as Whileee points out below, the deal itself has changed, with risk assessment needed both for the ownership structure and liabilities and how that affects the NHL-- who are putting in $85 MM interest-free for five years.

Far from done at this point methinks.



It's really very difficult to see how they could possibly make any money.
I don't get Gosbee in this case. If it was 10 guys putting in 4.5 million each, I could see each one going "hey I can be an NHL owner for 5 years for 4.5 million and maybe I get that money back in 5 years when we bail but at worst I lose 4.5 million." But Gosbee taking $35 million worth of risk, he may be rich but he isn't David Thomson rich

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07-28-2013, 10:45 PM
  #296
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It's really very difficult to see how they could possibly make any money.
There are 2 potential positive outcomes:

1) Enough non-hockey activity that the Arena makes a profit, big profit. Along with increased ticket prices, and a miracle of buzz, so the team becomes the 'in' thing. This negates the return to CoG. Since the AMF actually pays the Fortress loan, all that's left is the operating loan from the NHL, and if the whole thing is in the black....

More likely:
2) Hold on to the team for 5 years, suffering losses all the while. At the end of 5 years, 96M is left on the Fortress loan. Since the Reve Sharing and the Dev Fund money help offset losses, the 50M trigger for the out-clause could be reached while using substantially less than that of the 85M loan from the NHL. Let's say they have to repay 30M of that, after making Glendale whole to a 6M/yr AMF. Now, they have 126M of debt on the team, and 48M of their own $$ invested. Sell to PKP for 220M, pocket ~45M profit.....

Even more likely, however, is
3) LeBlanc doesn't really care, since he is selling in 5 years, and he only has 1 or 2 or 5M invested, and that is not much for the privilege of playing with the big boys....

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07-29-2013, 12:28 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
There are 2 potential positive outcomes:

1) Enough non-hockey activity that the Arena makes a profit, big profit. Along with increased ticket prices, and a miracle of buzz, so the team becomes the 'in' thing. This negates the return to CoG. Since the AMF actually pays the Fortress loan, all that's left is the operating loan from the NHL, and if the whole thing is in the black....

More likely:
2) Hold on to the team for 5 years, suffering losses all the while. At the end of 5 years, 96M is left on the Fortress loan. Since the Reve Sharing and the Dev Fund money help offset losses, the 50M trigger for the out-clause could be reached while using substantially less than that of the 85M loan from the NHL. Let's say they have to repay 30M of that, after making Glendale whole to a 6M/yr AMF. Now, they have 126M of debt on the team, and 48M of their own $$ invested. Sell to PKP for 220M, pocket ~45M profit.....

Even more likely, however, is
3) LeBlanc doesn't really care, since he is selling in 5 years, and he only has 1 or 2 or 5M invested, and that is not much for the privilege of playing with the big boys....
Under scenario #2 you are assuming that the revenue sharing from the NHL would not be counted against the losses. I highly doubt that the COG would allow RSE to assume that the NHL's funds would not count as revenue. Therefore, if they lose $50 million over five years I think that they'll be likely staring at a "break even" on resale of closer to $220 million ($95 million on the Fortress loan, $50 million to the NHL, $45 million invested, $30 million back to the COG).

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07-29-2013, 09:05 AM
  #298
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Under scenario #2 you are assuming that the revenue sharing from the NHL would not be counted against the losses. I highly doubt that the COG would allow RSE to assume that the NHL's funds would not count as revenue. Therefore, if they lose $50 million over five years I think that they'll be likely staring at a "break even" on resale of closer to $220 million ($95 million on the Fortress loan, $50 million to the NHL, $45 million invested, $30 million back to the COG).
I'll start this off by saying that I'm not an accountant or a lawyer so I may be talking out of my ass here but based on my understanding of the definitions of what is considered revenue under the terms of the lease agreement, any money that is received by the team under the terms of the NHL CBA are NOT considered to be revenue.

Only other thing it really says is that the calculating of losses is to be done according to general accounting principles.

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07-29-2013, 09:13 AM
  #299
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Under scenario #2 you are assuming that the revenue sharing from the NHL would not be counted against the losses. I highly doubt that the COG would allow RSE to assume that the NHL's funds would not count as revenue. Therefore, if they lose $50 million over five years I think that they'll be likely staring at a "break even" on resale of closer to $220 million ($95 million on the Fortress loan, $50 million to the NHL, $45 million invested, $30 million back to the COG).
Quote:
Originally Posted by LPHabsFan View Post
I'll start this off by saying that I'm not an accountant or a lawyer so I may be talking out of my ass here but based on my understanding of the definitions of what is considered revenue under the terms of the lease agreement, any money that is received by the team under the terms of the NHL CBA are NOT considered to be revenue.

Only other thing it really says is that the calculating of losses is to be done according to general accounting principles.
Thank you both, fellows.

I am under the understanding that LPHabsFan is correct. I can't quote it, and don't have the time to search, but I believe that RevSharing and the DevFund are excluded from the calculation of team losses for the purposes of the 50M trigger on the out-clause.

The fact it is framed this way tends to convince you that LeBlanc hopes to move or sell in 5 years.

However, figuring out his intentions is difficult because he is acting like a man who wants to make it work in ARZ (perhaps, since they will be Arizona Coyotes in a year, i should quit writing PHX).

So, to me, time will tell.....

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07-29-2013, 09:18 AM
  #300
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
There are 2 potential positive outcomes:



More likely:
2) Hold on to the team for 5 years, suffering losses all the while. At the end of 5 years, 96M is left on the Fortress loan. Since the Reve Sharing and the Dev Fund money help offset losses, the 50M trigger for the out-clause could be reached while using substantially less than that of the 85M loan from the NHL. Let's say they have to repay 30M of that, after making Glendale whole to a 6M/yr AMF. Now, they have 126M of debt on the team, and 48M of their own $$ invested. Sell to PKP for 220M, pocket ~45M profit.....

Even more likely, however, is
3) LeBlanc doesn't really care, since he is selling in 5 years, and he only has 1 or 2 or 5M invested, and that is not much for the privilege of playing with the big boys....
So wait a second, you have them not using the NHL line of credit while also losing $50million? It's also a big assumption that the league will let RSE profit from flipping the franchise. They didn't do it for ASG.

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