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Old
07-29-2013, 02:22 AM
  #101
SniperHF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adorno View Post
I mean clearly none of those guys can even begin to compare when your 1C is Mike Ribeiro. Phoenix is set
When your team can't AFFORD Malkin or Giroux, yes you are indeed set with Ribeiro + OEL instead.

Cause it totally makes sense to have one player take up 1/5th of the budget.

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07-29-2013, 03:10 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by huntison View Post
My favourite....

"Toews is a nice piece, I don't think Saad adds enough to justify. We are more or less set at C for a couple of seasons, so we need a top line winger; we are not moving OEL to bump Rib and Hanzal down to 2C and 3C, and make Vermette play on the 4th line; that's just not a good hockey trade...."

Wouldn't this be a better team?

Vermette-Toews-Doan
Boedker-Ribs-Vrbata
Saad-Hanzal-Moss
Korpikoski-Chipchura-Yip
Bissonnette
Hammer

Yandle-Michalek
Schlemko-Morris
Gormley-Klesla
Summers-Rundblad

Smith
This exactly..it's not just OEL, they are apparently unaware of the value of any of their players. They are set with Ribs and career high 35 points Hanzal as their top 2 centers? Somewhere in their also stating Backes is a very similar player to Hanzal...I mean the OEL overrating is just the tip of the iceberg it seems.

Apparently a team with a deep D corp (even as stated by Coyotes fans) can't move OEL for a REAL 1C like Toews or Giroux without another HUGE piece...I don't think Yotes fans actually want a better team.

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07-29-2013, 03:55 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Chaos Engine View Post
The problem is, I HAVE read the thread, and seen one Coyotes fan after another have the same irrational belief that OEL is the single most valuable player in the league. If I hadn't, I'd dismiss it as one complete homer, out of touch with reality.
I don't think you get that he his untouchable therefore u would need to seriously overpay for him, that's what most of there fans are getting at

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07-29-2013, 04:26 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by harro92 View Post
I don't think you get that he his untouchable therefore u would need to seriously overpay for him, that's what most of there fans are getting at
Neither are Duchene or MacKinnon yet it would somehow take both untouchable Avs to match his value.

There is no way i give up both Staz and RoR much less Duchene and MacKinnon

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07-29-2013, 04:36 AM
  #105
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I remember last year i couldnt wait for the season to end and put a stop to TOR fans asking for the Avs to simpky give Stastny away. And this year its Avs fans that just want to get rid of both Stastny and RoR. Cant wait for the season to end so that whatever happens has happened and an end has been brought to the subject.

Some people believe That if rhe 2009 draft was redone, RoR would have gone 4th overall. Yet OEL who would have gone 3rd overall holds enough value over Duchene that this years first overall should be chucked in.

Reference:
http://www.draftsite.com/nhl/redraft/2009/

I agree 1000% with he first 4 picks on this as well. So did a Coyotes fan whom is a friend of mine saying he would have taken Tavares or Duchene over OEL

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07-29-2013, 08:06 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos Engine View Post
The problem is, I HAVE read the thread, and seen one Coyotes fan after another have the same irrational belief that OEL is the single most valuable player in the league.
No. He's the single most valuable player to the Phoenix Coyotes and therefore isn't available unless the Coyotes are paid accordingly.

There's a massive, MASSIVE difference.

* * *
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Originally Posted by tucker3434 View Post
Feathers aren't ruffled when you label someone untouchable.






Oh, I wish. There are so many people here who get completely bent out of shape if you ever DARE tell them "no" or "he's not available."

* * *
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Originally Posted by AMDZen View Post
Neither are Duchene or MacKinnon yet it would somehow take both untouchable Avs to match his value.
Sigh. People keep saying "match his value" or thinking in that direction. Now, I can't claim to be a team expert, but from everything I've seen and read from fans and from Maloney's statements, the Coyotes do not want his value matched - they want it EXCEEDED. By an absurd amount.

If you think the proposals being thrown around are insane, that's good, because it's evidently intentional.

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07-29-2013, 08:22 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by SniperHF View Post
When your team can't AFFORD Malkin or Giroux, yes you are indeed set with Ribeiro + OEL instead.

Cause it totally makes sense to have one player take up 1/5th of the budget.
The Coyotes must be panicking about OEL's next contract, then. They'll probably have to let him walk in a few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
No. He's the single most valuable player to the Phoenix Coyotes and therefore isn't available unless the Coyotes are paid accordingly.

There's a massive, MASSIVE difference.
And I get that. But people have been offering massive overpayments to gauge his value, including guys that have won serious hardware like the (arguably) second best player in the world and Toews +, and there's STILL no acceptable deal.

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07-29-2013, 08:30 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Chaos Engine View Post
And I get that. But people have been offering massive overpayments to gauge his value, including guys that have won serious hardware like the (arguably) second best player in the world and Toews +, and there's STILL no acceptable deal.
That's because mere maximization of overpayment wouldn't be the way to do it - it has to be an overpayment that effectively meets the Coyote's needs and desires. At least, according to those who've actually been willing to discuss packages.

Personally, I think attempting to discuss such packages is a complete waste of time that only prompts more flamewars and misunderstandings. But I'm not a Yotes fan; I'm just a disgruntled Jackets fan who's been on the receiving end of this sort of thing way too many times to be happy with it happening to anybody.

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07-29-2013, 09:25 AM
  #109
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I don't understand why people in here are acting like an overpayment can't simply mean a trade involving two team's untouchable players. Toews, Duchene, Malkin, et al are going nowhere. In a hypothetical trade with Phoenix for OEL they already are in the overpayment categories, Duchy a little lower than the others granted.

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Old
07-29-2013, 09:35 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by AMDZen View Post
I remember last year i couldnt wait for the season to end and put a stop to TOR fans asking for the Avs to simpky give Stastny away. And this year its Avs fans that just want to get rid of both Stastny and RoR. Cant wait for the season to end so that whatever happens has happened and an end has been brought to the subject.

Some people believe That if rhe 2009 draft was redone, RoR would have gone 4th overall. Yet OEL who would have gone 3rd overall holds enough value over Duchene that this years first overall should be chucked in.

Reference:
http://www.draftsite.com/nhl/redraft/2009/

I agree 1000% with he first 4 picks on this as well. So did a Coyotes fan whom is a friend of mine saying he would have taken Tavares or Duchene over OEL
The 2008 redraft must be glitched, because there are no changes from the actual draft.

http://www.draftsite.com/nhl/redraft/2008/

Looking at all of the drafts, the thing that stands out most is the amazing group of players Pittsburgh had to pick from between 2003 and 2006. The redraft had them taking Parise, Ovechkin, Crosby and Giroux.

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07-29-2013, 10:28 AM
  #111
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LOL reading some of the posts in this thread, i realize that my proposal isn't as bad as some people on here thinking that OEL is worth Malkin or Crosby.

I guess i didn't know OEL is Bobby Orr, or Lidstrom...My bad folks.

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07-29-2013, 10:33 AM
  #112
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for the Avs to get Oliver Ekman-Larsson out of Phoenix, Matt Duchene would have to be included and there would be more to be added from Colorado... so I think its a no go from either side

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07-29-2013, 10:47 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
That's because mere maximization of overpayment wouldn't be the way to do it - it has to be an overpayment that effectively meets the Coyote's needs and desires. At least, according to those who've actually been willing to discuss packages.

Personally, I think attempting to discuss such packages is a complete waste of time that only prompts more flamewars and misunderstandings. But I'm not a Yotes fan; I'm just a disgruntled Jackets fan who's been on the receiving end of this sort of thing way too many times to be happy with it happening to anybody.
And I completely understand that. Avs fans aren't entirely unfamiliar with other fan bases making proposals without our needs in mind. But a player of, for example, Malkin's caliber would be worth completely changing a team's identity.
In Phoenix's case, defense is still a point of strength, especially with Tippett as coach. And it's not like Phoenix just won anything and don't want to tinker with their team much. To decline a trade for Malkin with a very solid roster player added is ludicrous, and points to a severe overvaluation.

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07-29-2013, 11:07 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Chaos Engine View Post
And I completely understand that. Avs fans aren't entirely unfamiliar with other fan bases making proposals without our needs in mind. But a player of, for example, Malkin's caliber would be worth completely changing a team's identity.
In Phoenix's case, defense is still a point of strength, especially with Tippett as coach. And it's not like Phoenix just won anything and don't want to tinker with their team much. To decline a trade for Malkin with a very solid roster player added is ludicrous, and points to a severe overvaluation.
No one from the Phx side is saying that OEL is a better player than Malkin or Crosby or Stamkos or some of the other players listed. (the "1" guy posting about OEL being better than ORR is well insane) What they are saying is that OEL is our best player and therefore wouldn't be traded unless an "overpayment" occurs...which means taking the 'best player' from another team and then adding to it. I'm mean really, this isn't that difficult to understand.

You don't see Phx Fans running around offering '*****' for other teams best players, but yet I can't tell you how many times Phx fans have had to endure reading bad proposal after bad proposal for our best players.

Again, OEL is our best player, he was at the age of 22 the #1 dman for Phx last season and is only going to get better. He isn't going to be a #1 dman in years to come he is one now and I'd argue he is right now one of the top 10 dman in the league. Unless we are trading him for 1 of the top 10 forwards in the league or more more then we're not interested.

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07-29-2013, 11:14 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Sindiggy View Post
No one from the Phx side is saying that OEL is a better player than Malkin or Crosby or Stamkos or some of the other players listed. (the "1" guy posting about OEL being better than ORR is well insane) What they are saying is that OEL is our best player and therefore wouldn't be traded unless an "overpayment" occurs...which means taking the 'best player' from another team and then adding to it. I'm mean really, this isn't that difficult to understand.

You don't see Phx Fans running around offering '*****' for other teams best players, but yet I can't tell you how many times Phx fans have had to endure reading bad proposal after bad proposal for our best players.

Again, OEL is our best player, he was at the age of 22 the #1 dman for Phx last season and is only going to get better. He isn't going to be a #1 dman in years to come he is one now and I'd argue he is right now one of the top 10 dman in the league. Unless we are trading him for 1 of the top 10 forwards in the league or more more then we're not interested.
I know where you're coming from. Fielding offers from Duchene can be frustrating too. I'm surprised this hasn't been locked up yet.

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07-29-2013, 11:54 AM
  #116
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OEL for Chara??? Why would BOS trade their captain? Why would PHX add salary and subtract 15 years? Stupid trade on both sides.

OEL for Stamkos??? Why would PHX trade their most valuable chip, push Ribeiro to 2C, Hanzal to 3C and Vermette to 4C? $3m for 4C? On a budget team?

These are not electrons on XBox, they're human beings who play in systems on teams with teammates.

What if Stamkos can't handle defensive responsibilities on a Dave Tippett team? What if OEL and St-Louis hate each other?

Stupid trades all around.

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07-29-2013, 12:54 PM
  #117
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If that's the hypothetical price for OEL, then I think the Avs would hypothetically politely walk away.

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07-29-2013, 02:10 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindiggy View Post
No one from the Phx side is saying that OEL is a better player than Malkin or Crosby or Stamkos or some of the other players listed. (the "1" guy posting about OEL being better than ORR is well insane) What they are saying is that OEL is our best player and therefore wouldn't be traded unless an "overpayment" occurs...which means taking the 'best player' from another team and then adding to it. I'm mean really, this isn't that difficult to understand.
No one from the Yotes camp actually said anything about ORR that I know of. The first person talking about Orr was Newf Icecapd, who I don't think is a Yotes fan.

Quote:
You don't see Phx Fans running around offering '*****' for other teams best players, but yet I can't tell you how many times Phx fans have had to endure reading bad proposal after bad proposal for our best players.

Again, OEL is our best player, he was at the age of 22 the #1 dman for Phx last season and is only going to get better. He isn't going to be a #1 dman in years to come he is one now and I'd argue he is right now one of the top 10 dman in the league. Unless we are trading him for 1 of the top 10 forwards in the league or more more then we're not interested.
That's exactly right, we have no interest in trading him. And he is a vital part of our team plan, of Tippett's system, as well as our projected future shape of the team. There is going to be a substantial overpayment before we would consider moving him at all. I hope ppl from other team begin to understand this (after saying it for the millionth time).

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07-29-2013, 02:15 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Chaos Engine View Post
And I completely understand that. Avs fans aren't entirely unfamiliar with other fan bases making proposals without our needs in mind. But a player of, for example, Malkin's caliber would be worth completely changing a team's identity.
In Phoenix's case, defense is still a point of strength, especially with Tippett as coach. And it's not like Phoenix just won anything and don't want to tinker with their team much. To decline a trade for Malkin with a very solid roster player added is ludicrous, and points to a severe overvaluation.
No one said that the value of Malkin + Sutter is not enough. They just don't fit into the long term salary structure of the Yotes, period; which is the biggest problem in dealing for Malkin. While we have a semi-stable ownership now, it doesn't mean that we can just squander by spending to the cap every year, and hemmorrhage money. That's a recipe for moving the team to a different market in the long run. OEL has similar, if not greater effect on the team in our current system, than Malkin would, at a fraction of the cost for a number of years. That's just not something you can throw away.

If Malkin was 22, and is 5 years away from UFA and signed to long term 5M AAV deal, then it would be a completely different story.

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07-29-2013, 02:17 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by alpine4life View Post
for the Avs to get Oliver Ekman-Larsson out of Phoenix, Matt Duchene would have to be included and there would be more to be added from Colorado... so I think its a no go from either side
Wrong. Duchene would be worth OEL strait up.

The trade would never happen, but the value is correct for both sides.

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07-29-2013, 02:34 PM
  #121
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Not unexpected. He's probably one of the most overrated players on HF.
Sulk all you want, it's not worth it.

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07-29-2013, 03:32 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Sindiggy View Post
No one from the Phx side is saying that OEL is a better player than Malkin or Crosby or Stamkos or some of the other players listed. (the "1" guy posting about OEL being better than ORR is well insane) What they are saying is that OEL is our best player and therefore wouldn't be traded unless an "overpayment" occurs...which means taking the 'best player' from another team and then adding to it. I'm mean really, this isn't that difficult to understand.

You don't see Phx Fans running around offering '*****' for other teams best players, but yet I can't tell you how many times Phx fans have had to endure reading bad proposal after bad proposal for our best players.

Again, OEL is our best player, he was at the age of 22 the #1 dman for Phx last season and is only going to get better. He isn't going to be a #1 dman in years to come he is one now and I'd argue he is right now one of the top 10 dman in the league. Unless we are trading him for 1 of the top 10 forwards in the league or more more then we're not interested.
Every team has a d-man they call #1. OEL being Yotes #1 d-man doesn't mean he is up there with guys like Chara, Keith, Weber etc...

Some of you Yotes fans sound like OEL is the best d-man in the NHL just because he is your best d-man. He hasn't won anything or been nominated for anything yet and whether or not he will ever win an award remains to be seen.

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07-29-2013, 04:07 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post
Every team has a d-man they call #1. OEL being Yotes #1 d-man doesn't mean he is up there with guys like Chara, Keith, Weber etc...

Some of you Yotes fans sound like OEL is the best d-man in the NHL just because he is your best d-man. He hasn't won anything or been nominated for anything yet and whether or not he will ever win an award remains to be seen.
You failed to read the message...OEL is our "best player" and a #1 dman.

Again for the umteeeeeeeeenth million time...he will only be traded for another team's best player +. Yotes fans are just trying to set the precedent that he isn't going to be traded unless a complete and utterly ridiculous overpayment proposal comes the other way...just some of you want to 'read' into that we think he's the best player in the league...which is completely absurd. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

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07-29-2013, 05:10 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post
Every team has a d-man they call #1. OEL being Yotes #1 d-man doesn't mean he is up there with guys like Chara, Keith, Weber etc...

Some of you Yotes fans sound like OEL is the best d-man in the NHL just because he is your best d-man. He hasn't won anything or been nominated for anything yet and whether or not he will ever win an award remains to be seen.
You're oversimplifying what's being said.

Chara's value in trade isn't within 100 miles of OEL's. Chara is, what, 37? He'll be out if the league in 2-3 years when OEL is a perennial Norris finalist.

Keith is similar ... he's 30? The Coyotes would never give away 8 / 15 years and trade OEL for those two guys.

But Boston doesn't care about 3 years from now (see:Seguin deal). Boston and Chicago are trying to win the Cup now, so they wouldn't trade Keith or Chara for OEL.

In a league-wide dispersal draft, OEL would get picked probably 4 rounds ahead of Chara. He's "more" valuable, but that doesn't mean anything in context of an actual trade. OEL is valuable to PHX, Stamkos is to TBL, Chara is to BOS. Let's move on ...

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07-29-2013, 05:11 PM
  #125
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Every team has a d-man they call #1. OEL being Yotes #1 d-man doesn't mean he is up there with guys like Chara, Keith, Weber etc...

Some of you Yotes fans sound like OEL is the best d-man in the NHL just because he is your best d-man. He hasn't won anything or been nominated for anything yet and whether or not he will ever win an award remains to be seen.
He is by far the most dominant D man on one of the top D-corps in the league, and likely the deepest organization in terms of Ds at every level. That's saying a lot; and he is doing it while on his ELC.

He will probably be the team MVP going forward from this point on, barring some year of Ribeiro turning in a monster performance, or Doan somehow reverts to the form at the height of his career.

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