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The Out of Town Thread part LXVI - All Talk From Around the League Here

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Old
07-26-2013, 11:10 PM
  #276
Rosso Scuderia
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Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
With the emergence of Eller this season and Plekanec, DD is no longer our 2nd line center.
I really hope Therrien thinks the same way.

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07-26-2013, 11:41 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I look forward to responding to each and every one of these points when I get a chance. In the mean time, for all your effort and counter points I still have zero idea what your point is. I've been crystal clear on my stance but I have no idea what your point is. Other than arguing for the sale of arguing, what is point?
That Gagner's contract doesn't "make DD's contract more palatable", and that the people claiming Gagner is "grossly overpaid" are conveniently avoiding putting a dollar amount to by how much, among other tangents explored.

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07-28-2013, 10:25 AM
  #278
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Let the people decide!

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07-28-2013, 10:31 AM
  #279
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Let the people decide!
indeed.

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07-28-2013, 10:56 AM
  #280
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Let the people decide!
the link is broken?

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Old
07-28-2013, 11:03 AM
  #281
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the link is broken?
bunch of newbs... (only use "clZ5pdrc_X8" from youtube link in yt quotes)


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07-28-2013, 11:54 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
bunch of newbs... (only use "clZ5pdrc_X8" from youtube link in yt quotes)

I think it's funnier to keep quoting the white box.

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07-28-2013, 02:20 PM
  #283
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Bane's voice and character motivations killed a little bit of my soul. I was so excited to see TDKR and so disappointed afterward.

HE SOUNDS LIKE A DRUNK GUY TRYING TO DO THE SEAN CONNERY VOICE

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07-28-2013, 02:31 PM
  #284
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movie got better IMO the 2nd time, sometimes hype/expectations need to be lowered for appreciation of certain things.

Sry overlords... took the fun out of it

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07-28-2013, 02:48 PM
  #285
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As his name will probably come sooner or later, Mark Fraser just refused Toronto's QO.

Not too old, but not too good either, but still, would add something we actually lack on our backend, right now. Depends on what he asks, he could be a decent band-aid 6th-7th D.

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07-28-2013, 03:06 PM
  #286
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TSN is saying that Fraser is requesting 2m/ season

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07-28-2013, 03:12 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by HatTricK09 View Post
TSN is saying that Fraser is requesting 2m/ season
Now, that would be foolish. A 1year contract at about 1.3 to 1.5 (absolute maximum), just to prove he deserves more after, yeah, ok, but 2... naaaa

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07-28-2013, 03:45 PM
  #288
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Supposedly the Wild are gonna give Oliver Archambault a try-out.

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Old
07-28-2013, 03:57 PM
  #289
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White, Prust Parros and Fraser....

You've got to ask yourself, do Briere, Gallagher, Deharnais, Diaz, Subban et al play with more or less fear?

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07-28-2013, 04:03 PM
  #290
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Fraser is AWFUL.

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07-28-2013, 09:34 PM
  #291
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A little link shedding some light on who some thought ought to get a shot as GM

http://articles.courant.com/1994-05-...-paul-holmgren

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07-28-2013, 09:48 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
A little link shedding some light on who some thought ought to get a shot as GM

http://articles.courant.com/1994-05-...-paul-holmgren
Sometimes I question the authenticity of an article when the horror stories are as scathing as the ones here, but this sounds so much like Pierre McGuire I can't help but believe every single word.

Quote:
On the bench, players said McGuire would taunt the other team, saying he couldn't believe the opposing coach was allowing him certain line matchups.

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07-28-2013, 11:55 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
A little link shedding some light on who some thought ought to get a shot as GM

http://articles.courant.com/1994-05-...-paul-holmgren
wow..is that ever enlightening.....if that article is legit.....what a tool

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Old
07-29-2013, 08:02 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
The planet where you stop trying to combine his one good season (where he fed off beast mode Patches + Cole) with his other seasons, in an effort to make him look good. Last year, with our top wingers, boat load of PP time and every opportunity to succeed, he scored at a 40 point pace. Which, I would be inclined to believe, had it been an 82 game schedule, would've regressed to a 30 point pace.

And in no way am I saying he is a 3rd liner, since I would not have that useless twit on my 3rd line. He'd be terrible in a 3rd line role, even more terrible than his top 6 role.
I think you need to make your position more clear. Stop sitting on the fence and provide an opinion.

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07-29-2013, 08:20 AM
  #295
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Fraser is AWFUL.
Leaf fans aren't even sure if he'll fight anymore. Apparently he suffered a skull fracture or something?

So if that's the case...big pass from me.

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Old
07-29-2013, 09:32 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Fraser is AWFUL.
Coming from a team boasting the likes of Drewiske, Gorges, Diaz and Bouillon, and most of them in the top 4 ... I don't think we can afford to say a lot of players are awful.

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07-29-2013, 09:39 AM
  #297
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Funny how I'm using the information available from the year they signed their contracts.
Relevance?

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And yet he has been a top scorer on their team the whole time. But that doesn't matter to you, right? It's not the team composition or depth that has plagued the Oilers in the years immediately following Gagner joining them, it's Sam Gagner... how could everyone miss the obvious?
Top scorer? Well he was their 1st/2nd line centre for the 6 years he's been playing and his higher scoring cohorts are for the most part, younger than he is, they've all had more points and the only time Gagner came close to scoring 50 points was his first year when he had 49. Since then, he's barely putting up 40+. Arguing he's been one of the "top" scorers when he's never put up more than 50 while getting top line minutes is a ridiculous argument at best.

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Disingenuous is pretending that I didn't do all the work for you and show that he DIDN'T get more minutes than every other forward on his team, and in fact more often ranked around 5th just among Oiler forwards in terms of ES and PP opportunity. And just how much of an opportunity are you trying to suggest it was, playing 2nd wave on the Oilers of '07/08-'11/12?
He's getting top 6 minutes as a top 6 forward should. Again, the numbers show that by your own admission.

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And Gagner, despite being so "long in the tooth", is producing right alongside them. So if you prefer to focus just on what they've done, and completely ignore what's projected for them moving forward, he has been "worth" just as much as the team's recent 1st and 2nd overall draft picks, which isnít bad.
First off, he's not. The fact you hold on to this misguided notion that he's performing at a top level talent clip is ludacris. AGAIN, he's averaging 44 points per season! How in any world is this producing at a high level?

To compare him to Hall and RNH or even Yakopov shows how misinformed you are. Hall and RNH have already scored 50+ points, Yakopov led the team in scoring in his first season and all 3 are younger than Gagner and project MUCH higher than Gagner did and HAS performed so far. I can't believe you just made that comparison. Lol.


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Not just long term, but also league-wide. But let's back up. What makes them "obviously better players" to you , if all you're going on is what they've actually done so far? RNH hasn't been more productive at 18/19 than Gagner was at 18/19, and Eberle - for all the DD-like '11/12 season he had - had a 20 year old season in '10/11 that was almost exactly like the 20 year old season Gagner the year before in '09/10, and got out-produced by Gagner this year (and they're only a year apart, obviously).
30 of 30 GM, scouts, coaches, players etc. will take Hall & RNG over Gagner, 10 times out of 10, every time, twice on Sunday and on their birthday. This isn't even a debate point. The fact you're trying to make it one shows you have no leg to stand on in your argument. Again, I can't believe you're bringing Hall and RNH into this debate... if you want to call it that.

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I'm comparing production to worth, not making player comparisons. I know you're unable to deal with player comparisons, so I'm trying to keep this at a level where hockey dB and cap geek can at least try to let you keep up.
For offensive players, production = worth. These are not mutually exclusive. They literally use direct comparisons while negotiating contracts. As for some of the intangibles, yes, they also get factored in to some extent, but they're not the bulk of the contract. All the character in the world only gets you so far but teams pay for performance. Maybe that's something that you don't comprehend.

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A lot more than you do, that's all I can tell you.
If I knew you worked for the NSA I'd have been logged off. It's nice to know that random people in the world "know" what I do and don't do based on a chat board convo. It does fit your M.O. of righteous indignationís.

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I watch every team in the league a LOT. I have a lot of time to watch hockey, and I watch a lot of hockey. But I find that I can get more out of 5 minutes of watching hockey than many people get out of 5 years, so it's kind of moot in the end any way.
Big ego much. I didn't know I was talking to a hockey savant. Again, for someone who watches as much hockey as you say you do, you definitely make some silly arguments and counter points.

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No, I haven't. I've tried to dill down hard that Gagner at $4.8 million doesn't make DD's $3.5 million ANY more palatable.
So the crux of your rant is this? Has it occurred to you that you've put up zero argument to this point that is based on actual numbers? All you do is bring up abstract comments about Gagner being one of the top on his last place team in scoring but you bring no evidence to support you argument for his exorbitant salary.

Quote:
This, from start to finish, shows your distorted spreadsheet-ruled world of ranking the contributions of players across time and different teams.
Speaking of spreadsheet data and rankings, if you actually take a look at one, you'll find that the average cost for a 2nd line centre, BEFORE the cap dropped was around $4M. Gagner was given $4.8M and DD was given $3.5. One made less than the market value of a 60+ point 2nd line centre and the other made $800k more than the market average and averages 44 points a year. Are there other intangibles, of course there are. Would I pay $1.8M more for Gagner than DD? Hells no.


Quote:
It was YOU (and others) who threw in the snide comments about how DD's contract looks a lot better now that some of the other signings have gone down. I haven't even attempted to paint Gagner as "amazing" or anything of the like. It's a real strawman army out there today in my fields.
I didn't know you'd take my comment so to heart. You must be a REALLY big Gagner fan or DD stole your wife because this reaction isn't very normal. Last I checked, we live in a free world where I made a comment on a message board about an "opinion." You are aware that everyone is entitled to one, right? Add insult to injury, it's not even like a made a bold statement here but your reaction has made it worth it regardless. Who would ever have thought that commenting that Gagner's contract makes DD's more palpable would be such a lightning rod for you. It seems that the majority of posters agree that even though most aren't big fans of DD, they also believe that Gagner's contract is a lot.

To further my point so as not to have it distorted by you or anyone else for the umpteenth time, I am not defending or even comparing DD to Gagner. Just made an off the cusp remark that Gagner's contract is so bad that it made DD's look not as bad.

Quote:
So how, then, is a $1.3 million gap in their cap hit representative of a "steal" for DD (or "fair", even) and "grossly overpaying" for Gagner?!?
Read above. You have an uncanny ability to distort my comments or just blatantly make them up to suit your talking points. The comparison is with the CONTRACTS, not the players. You can separate the 2 can't you. Here's an example as you seem to not grasp the concept. I like Patches, I like him more at $4.5 M, and I like him way less at $7 M. Do you see how the amount of money a player makes can distort your perception of that player?

So to re-iterate as I know you'll distort this comment as well. DD at $3.5M for 4 years, not so happy. Seeing the Oilers over pay (yes, over pay as the $4M mark is a pretty good average) makes DD's contract more palatable. This is an OPINION, not up for debate. Its how I FEEL about the situation, you can't convince me otherwise.

Quote:
You've done a good job of making something that misses the mark on many levels almost sound like a fact. Congratulations.
I appreciate the compliment. It is quite the talent on my behalf to go back in time and alter Gagner's play and manipulate the statistics the NHL and the news agencies provide to the public that support my claim. All those abstract concepts I bring to the table like, stats, point production, plus minus, average salaries etc. are all based on Voodoo concepts like observation and statistics. Who needs those? You on the other hand use hard science to support your view. You've got your "gut" feelings and personal observation of "watching a lot of hockey" that support the "real" facts that youíre smarter and more informed than everyone else. It must be hard being so smart and having to deal with so many stupid people who don't support your infallible views.

Quote:
Yeah, if all you do is look at stats with complete lack of comprehension of what goes into producing them in the various scoring environments around the league, and armed with relatively little in the way of actual observation, then yeah, you'll keep thinking that having DD on your roster at $3.5 million for the next 3 years is a much better thing than having Gagner at $4.8 million over the same period.
Did I also mention you have an amazing ability to read my mind and make statements for me that I've never made (yet, presumably) to support your argument. So not only do you "know" you watch, observe and understand hockey more than most and understand more in 5 minutes than most do in 5 years, you can also speak for me too!
Meanwhile, I didn't even know I had ever made or was going to make the bolded argument you just made for me. Truly an amazing ability you have.

Quote:
Truly, nothing personal here. Anyone going to the same ridiculous lengths to justify Desharnais' contract would get the same treatment from me; especially if it comes with needless and misguided tearing down of ANY other player.
AGAIN, never justified DD's contract. I made a remark that Gagner's is soo bad, it takes the edges of DD's bad contract.

Quote:
And even if I indulge you in your strawman for a moment here, Pacioretty hasn't even become a 20 min/night player yet. Gagner has. But the issue for me isn't whether or not Gagner is "overpaid". I've even suggested that he probably is in the previous post. But you tell me exactly how much he's overpaid (which I submit is the hard part, since it really can't be by that much), and show me some supporting background work that doesn't involve cherry-picked Habs that you're obviously actually familiar with, who also signed at a discount to get long term security in exchange.
You constantly speak of me as being a Strawman and the legions of Strawmen out there but you're the epitome of a Strawman. I am using the actual, literal, black and white facts to support my argument. You're the one ignoring the actual facts and using abstract points in a flaccid attempt to prove your point. This Patches argument is exactly what I'm talking about. Saying Patches isn't even a 20 min/night player to support your argument. So what!? Are you saying Patches isn't as good a player as Gagner? Are you saying Gagner deserves more money because he plays 20+ min/night? What's your point? This is what you do all the time. Above, in past comments you compared Gagner to Hall, RNH, Eberle, Yakopov etc. in some weird attempt to justify his contract when all those players have put up better numbers, been better players and are younger than Gagner. You attempt to distort, misrepresent and exaggerate your position as you don't really have one. Calling me and other "Strawmen" is one of the most blatant attempts at psychological projection I've seen on HF Boards and that's saying a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
That Gagner's contract doesn't "make DD's contract more palatable", and that the people claiming Gagner is "grossly overpaid" are conveniently avoiding putting a dollar amount to by how much, among other tangents explored.
How can you even argue the first point? It's an opinion on how I feel. It's not debatable.

Even if you wanted to debate it, you haven't provided ANY tangible proof of why I'm wrong in thinking that. If you're trying to convince me I'm wrong, why haven't you provided any reference to how much DD or Gagner should be making. The onus is on you to show me the err of my ways and not vice versa. You are the one arguing that I'm wrong while I'm defending my point. If you don't like my opinion that's fine. If you want to prove that I'm wrong, you better bring some facts and not your usual Stawman tactics as I see right through them.

Until you do, I stand firmly in my feeling that DD's contract is a little easier to swallow now than it was before but I still hope Eller renders him inconsequential this year and we end up trading DD. I'm not a big fan of his in case you didn't notice by the 15 million times I said it previously.

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Old
07-29-2013, 10:05 AM
  #298
Chris Cutter
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Good counter arguments shuteinside, I'd like to add one thing. Why did you bring up the 20+ mins of ice time argument Ohashi_Jouzu? I think it's pretty irrelevant if you take in consideration the coaching methods of a seasoned veteran like Therrien who we all know likes to roll all of his lines so already there that has a direct impact on DD's ice time. Ralph Krueger (who was fired after a shortened season) didn't have the depth to give his bottom 6 players more minutes because most of them quite frankly are not in the mold of a such role or they don't belong in the NHL. This fact has more of a direct correlation with Gagner's ice time than the player itself.


Last edited by Chris Cutter: 07-29-2013 at 10:20 AM.
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Old
07-29-2013, 10:09 AM
  #299
shutehinside
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Good counter arguments shuteinside, I'd like to add one thing. Why did you bring up the 20+ mins of ice time argument DaChampion? I think it's pretty irrelevant if you take in consideration the coaching methods of a seasoned veteran like Therrien who we all know likes to roll all of his lines so already there that has a direct impact on DD's ice time. Ralph Krueger (who was fired after a shortened season) didn't have the depth to give his bottom 6 players more minutes because most of them quite frankly are not in the mold of a such role or they don't belong in the NHL. This fact has more of a direct correlation with Gagner's ice time than the player itself.
I didn't. I countered that point after Ohashi_Jouzu said that Patches doesn't even play 20 min/night whereas Gagner does in an apparent atempt to justify Gagner's value.

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Old
07-29-2013, 12:27 PM
  #300
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I don't know if it's hilarious, pathetic or dumb, but I can't help but feel sad for Leafs fans who keep bringing up the Orr incident with Bourque with pride. How little do these guys have to cheer for?

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