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Old
07-27-2013, 10:50 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're right. It's not a hard concept. Goaltending was 80-90% of the issue. The rest of the team was about 10-20%, at most. The rest of the team was good enough except for the slob in the crease.

Goalies who suck have a much bigger impact that a skater that sucks. A goalie sucking is a far, far larger issue than a skater sucking.
By "The rest of the team" you mean Ryan Parent and Lukas Kracijek, right? RIGHT!?


I think Paul Martin deserves some criticism as well for taking slapshots at Lappy's face.

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07-28-2013, 12:57 AM
  #527
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Eh, I think Gus is overrated around here. I'd rather trade Mez, but in the future (even if not this season), if Gus get's dealt I won't be too broken up about it.
trading Gus this offseason or this season would be pretty ****ing stupid because you would be basically taking Gervais over Gus as well.
i would rather take a guy with potential over a lousy 6/7 guy like Gervais.
they need to hold onto Gus because in the 14 offseason Timonen,Meszaros and Gervais could all potentially come off the books.
Gus isnt overrated around here. People think he has #4 upside. What is so wrong with that? Lets keep gus and develop him instead of keep signing clowns like Lilja and Gervais.

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07-28-2013, 08:09 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
trading Gus this offseason or this season would be pretty ****ing stupid because you would be basically taking Gervais over Gus as well.
i would rather take a guy with potential over a lousy 6/7 guy like Gervais.
they need to hold onto Gus because in the 14 offseason Timonen,Meszaros and Gervais could all potentially come off the books.
Gus isnt overrated around here. People think he has #4 upside. What is so wrong with that? Lets keep gus and develop him instead of keep signing clowns like Lilja and Gervais.
If that is the case, that's fine. I think he has #4 upside as well. But people arent saying that. People think he is a #4 defender now, or is guaranteed to be one in the very near future. I don't take issue with people saying he may be a top four guy one day, but that is far from a certainty.

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07-28-2013, 12:15 PM
  #529
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Statistically, he WAS a solid top 4 defender last year. He has become better than Mez, and his very solid international play only helps confirm that.

A big problem with this team is the constant overpayment for Dmen. Mez is overpaid for what he is. Gus is exactly what the team needs...someone of top 4 skill on an affordable contract. I'll take that over Mez 59 days a week. Also, he doesn't get injured if he breathes too hard.

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07-28-2013, 12:18 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Statistically, he WAS a solid top 4 defender last year. He has become better than Mez, and his very solid international play only helps confirm that.
Thank god. I was starting to think I was the crazy one with so many people assuring me that Meszaros is the better defenseman right now.

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07-28-2013, 12:47 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Statistically, he WAS a solid top 4 defender last year. He has become better than Mez, and his very solid international play only helps confirm that.

A big problem with this team is the constant overpayment for Dmen. Mez is overpaid for what he is. Gus is exactly what the team needs...someone of top 4 skill on an affordable contract. I'll take that over Mez 59 days a week. Also, he doesn't get injured if he breathes too hard.
Could you elaborate on this a little bit more? He played 27 games last year, and I don't remember exactly what would make him statistically a top four defender from these 27 games. I agree that Mez is overpaid and injury prone. No doubt about that. That is why I think he should be (and will be traded). However, if he is not, he is still a better hockey player than Gus if he is healthy. You don't throw away a guy's career after an 11 game injury shortened season, just like a guy doesn't become a top four defender based on a 27 game shortened season.

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07-28-2013, 04:15 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Could you elaborate on this a little bit more? He played 27 games last year, and I don't remember exactly what would make him statistically a top four defender from these 27 games. I agree that Mez is overpaid and injury prone. No doubt about that. That is why I think he should be (and will be traded). However, if he is not, he is still a better hockey player than Gus if he is healthy. You don't throw away a guy's career after an 11 game injury shortened season, just like a guy doesn't become a top four defender based on a 27 game shortened season.
Meszaros has a very significant injury history, including (but not limited to) this past season:
2013/04/27 Missed the last 16 regular season games (shoulder injury).
2013/03/09 Missed 21 games (sprained left shoulder).
2012/05/08 Missed 19 regular season and 10 playoff games (back surgery)
2009/04/12 Missed the last 30 games of the regular season (left shoulder surgery).

As well, he has been shown to be less effective the higher up he climbs in the pairings. Choosing between him and Gustafsson (who is currently around Meszaros' compete level and has the ability to get better) is an easy economic decision.

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07-28-2013, 06:51 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Could you elaborate on this a little bit more? He played 27 games last year, and I don't remember exactly what would make him statistically a top four defender from these 27 games. I agree that Mez is overpaid and injury prone. No doubt about that. That is why I think he should be (and will be traded). However, if he is not, he is still a better hockey player than Gus if he is healthy. You don't throw away a guy's career after an 11 game injury shortened season, just like a guy doesn't become a top four defender based on a 27 game shortened season.
In 27 games this year, Gustafsson's relative CORSI (CORSI-on minus CORSI-off) was a -0.4.

In 11 games this year, Meszaros' relative CORSI was a -26.2. He was just above Jody Shelley (1 game) and Harry Zolnierczyk (7 games), whose relative CORSIs were the worst on the team. He was just above Jay Rosehill's 11-game stint with us.

In 30 games last year, Gustafsson's relative CORSI was a +0.2.

In 62 games last year, Meszaros' relative CORSI was a -1.07.

In 3 games the year before last, Gustafsson's relative CORSI was a +26.6 (obviously inflated drastically by his short stint).

In 81 games that year, Meszaros' relative CORSI was a +2.2. That was his best year, and the year he was our "best" defenseman.

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07-28-2013, 11:39 PM
  #534
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The Colorado/Phoenix thread is good for a nice laugh on the trade & rumors board. OEL is the next coming of Bobby Orr apparently judging by the trade demands for him. We would have put Giroux & one of Schenn, Couturier, or Simmonds on the table to get them listening, that's not even the worst prosposal, a poster goes team by team saying what it would cost to pry OEL off them. It's hilarious.

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07-29-2013, 12:22 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
The Colorado/Phoenix thread is good for a nice laugh on the trade & rumors board. OEL is the next coming of Bobby Orr apparently judging by the trade demands for him. We would have put Giroux & one of Schenn, Couturier, or Simmonds on the table to get them listening, that's not even the worst prosposal, a poster goes team by team saying what it would cost to pry OEL off them. It's hilarious.
Speaking on a related topic, I love the HFboards life-cycle of Claude Giroux...

Pre-rookie year: Bust
Rookie (1/2) year: Solid playmaking winger, maybe a 3rd liner, but definitely a lesser Briere
Sophomore year: Yeah, he hit 50 points, but that's probably his peak
Third season: Well he's great 2nd line center, but he'll never be PPG
Fourth season: OMFG GIROUX IS JESUS!
Fifth (1/2) season: Dude's just a really good player, not elite. Tavares is better.

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07-29-2013, 12:38 AM
  #536
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Speaking on a related topic, I love the HFboards life-cycle of Claude Giroux...

Pre-rookie year: Bust
Rookie (1/2) year: Solid playmaking winger, maybe a 3rd liner, but definitely a lesser Briere
Sophomore year: Yeah, he hit 50 points, but that's probably his peak
Third season: Well he's great 2nd line center, but he'll never be PPG
Fourth season: OMFG GIROUX IS JESUS!
Fifth (1/2) season: Dude's just a really good player, not elite. Tavares is better.
Yup, I want to see Tavares at least be a PPG player before I start claiming him as a shoe-in to go over the 100 point mark.


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07-29-2013, 08:29 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
Meszaros has a very significant injury history, including (but not limited to) this past season:
2013/04/27 Missed the last 16 regular season games (shoulder injury).
2013/03/09 Missed 21 games (sprained left shoulder).
2012/05/08 Missed 19 regular season and 10 playoff games (back surgery)
2009/04/12 Missed the last 30 games of the regular season (left shoulder surgery).

As well, he has been shown to be less effective the higher up he climbs in the pairings. Choosing between him and Gustafsson (who is currently around Meszaros' compete level and has the ability to get better) is an easy economic decision.
I don't know why people are having problems understanding what I am saying. I don't think I could be any clearer. I AM NOT SAYING TRADE GUS AND KEEP MEZ. I AM SAYING TWO THINGS: 1) IF MEZ AND GUS ARE BOTH HERE AND THE CHOICE TO PLAY ONE OVER THE OTHER COMES UP, I WOULD PLAY MEZ BECAUSE WHEN HEALTHY HE IS THE BETTER PLAYER; AND 2) IF GUS WERE TO BE TRADED IN A PATRICK SHARP-TYPE SITUATION (I.E. NO ROOM FOR HIM HERE SO THEY ARE TRADING HIM TO DO HIM A FAVOR) I WOULDN'T BE TOO BROKEN UP BECAUSE I THINK GUS IS OVERRATED AROUND HERE.

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In 27 games this year, Gustafsson's relative CORSI (CORSI-on minus CORSI-off) was a -0.4.

In 11 games this year, Meszaros' relative CORSI was a -26.2. He was just above Jody Shelley (1 game) and Harry Zolnierczyk (7 games), whose relative CORSIs were the worst on the team. He was just above Jay Rosehill's 11-game stint with us.

In 30 games last year, Gustafsson's relative CORSI was a +0.2.

In 62 games last year, Meszaros' relative CORSI was a -1.07.

In 3 games the year before last, Gustafsson's relative CORSI was a +26.6 (obviously inflated drastically by his short stint).

In 81 games that year, Meszaros' relative CORSI was a +2.2. That was his best year, and the year he was our "best" defenseman.
So that's it? One stat over a 70 or so game span means 1) that Gus is a top four defender and 2) that Gus is better than Mesz. To begin with, I don't place as much stock in a stat like CORSI as most do on here. But if we are going to go with this type of stat let's look at quality of competition as well, which Mesz has a better rating in during each of those seasons (6 vs. 0 last year, -3.4 vs. 5.6 two years ago, and -1.7 vs. -13.1 three years ago). That surely factors in, doesn't it?

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07-29-2013, 09:42 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
When did we see it from Chicago? Let's say Toews and Kane are the Chicago equivalent to Richards and Carter. In 2010 Toews may have been shut down, but I'm pretty sure Patrick Kane had more than a PPG.
Kane didn't have any points in the first two games and 3 in the next two, which they lost so his contribution didn't matter.
Then Quenneville switched him with Hossa so he didn't have to face Richards anymore and Kane ended up with 5 points in the last 2 games.

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07-29-2013, 09:51 AM
  #539
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Kane didn't have any points in the first two games and 3 in the next two, which they lost so his contribution didn't matter.
Then Quenneville switched him with Hossa so he didn't have to face Richards anymore and Kane ended up with 5 points in the last 2 games.
How does that not support my position? Kane had 8 points in 6 games. That is more points than Carter, Richards, and Gagne combined. In other words, we didn't see the same thing with Chicago in 2010 (i.e. Philly's two best offensive players didn't show up, Chicago's best offensive player did).

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07-29-2013, 12:18 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So that's it? One stat over a 70 or so game span means 1) that Gus is a top four defender and 2) that Gus is better than Mesz. To begin with, I don't place as much stock in a stat like CORSI as most do on here. But if we are going to go with this type of stat let's look at quality of competition as well, which Mesz has a better rating in during each of those seasons (6 vs. 0 last year, -3.4 vs. 5.6 two years ago, and -1.7 vs. -13.1 three years ago). That surely factors in, doesn't it?
Well, Gustafsson's QoC stat is based on the quality of opponent's CORSI. Behindthenet got rid of the previous QoC stat and replaced it with this, which I assume is the same thing under a different name...

2012-13
(27 GP) Gustafsson: 0.349
(11 GP) Meszaros: -0.479

2011-12
(30 GP) Gustafsson: -0.603 (He was not needed in the top 4 so only filled in on the bottom pairing)
(62 GP) Meszaros: -0.040

2010-11
(3 GP) Gustafsson: 0.262
(81 GP) Meszaros: 0.089 (5th out of 6 defensemen who played at least 50 games in his "best-defenseman" year)

Then for offense...

2012-13
Meszaros averaged 2:02 on PP, 1:18 on PK, and 15:07 at EV during his 11-game stint. He only had 2 points last year, one on the PP and one at EV.

Gustafsson averaged 1:35 on the PP, 1:18 on the PK, and 17:14 at EV through 27 games. He had 7 EV points to tie for the lead at a 21 EV point-pace through an 82 game season. Timonen only tied him at a 21 EV point-pace. Gus only had 1 PP point.

2011-12
Meszaros averaged 1:24 on PP, 2:24 on PK, and 16:51 at EV through 62 games. He paced for 29 points through 82 games at EV and 4 points through 82 games on PP.

Gustafsson averaged 0:33 on PP, 0:19 on PK, and 15:55 at EV through 30 games. He paced for 11 points through 82 games at EV on bottom pairing minutes and had virtually no PP time, so he recorded no points. This lack of production is relative to his position at the time. He was not given heavy minutes because there was no need for it.

2010-11
Meszaros averaged 2:26 on PP, 2:02 on PK, and 16:38 at EV through 81 games. He paced for 26 EV points and 6 PP points.

Gustafsson averaged 0:13 on PP, no time on the PK, and 10:43 at EV through 3 games. He produced no points, but that was an obvious result considering his TOI.

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07-29-2013, 12:18 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't know why people are having problems understanding what I am saying. I don't think I could be any clearer. I AM NOT SAYING TRADE GUS AND KEEP MEZ. I AM SAYING TWO THINGS: 1) IF MEZ AND GUS ARE BOTH HERE AND THE CHOICE TO PLAY ONE OVER THE OTHER COMES UP, I WOULD PLAY MEZ BECAUSE WHEN HEALTHY HE IS THE BETTER PLAYER; AND 2) IF GUS WERE TO BE TRADED IN A PATRICK SHARP-TYPE SITUATION (I.E. NO ROOM FOR HIM HERE SO THEY ARE TRADING HIM TO DO HIM A FAVOR) I WOULDN'T BE TOO BROKEN UP BECAUSE I THINK GUS IS OVERRATED AROUND HERE.



So that's it? One stat over a 70 or so game span means 1) that Gus is a top four defender and 2) that Gus is better than Mesz. To begin with, I don't place as much stock in a stat like CORSI as most do on here. But if we are going to go with this type of stat let's look at quality of competition as well, which Mesz has a better rating in during each of those seasons (6 vs. 0 last year, -3.4 vs. 5.6 two years ago, and -1.7 vs. -13.1 three years ago). That surely factors in, doesn't it?
We've covered this. Nearly ALL of his important stats are better than Mez. Also...you use the word "healthy." Mez hasn't been healthy since 2010. Hell, he once injured himself making a routine hit. Just spend like 5 minutes on behindthenet or any other advanced stats site and you'll see what we mean. It goes beyond CORSI. Gus faces either the same or slightly more difficult competition and fares better pretty much across the board.

So, we've got a guy who's younger, with more room to grow, with a better health record, with a much smaller cap hit, who has been outperforming the constantly injured expensive guy. Which do you prefer?

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07-29-2013, 12:38 PM
  #542
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Well, Gustafsson's QoC stat is based on the quality of opponent's CORSI. Behindthenet got rid of the previous QoC stat and replaced it with this, which I assume is the same thing under a different name...

2012-13
(27 GP) Gustafsson: 0.349
(11 GP) Meszaros: -0.479

2011-12
(30 GP) Gustafsson: -0.603 (He was not needed in the top 4 so only filled in on the bottom pairing)
(62 GP) Meszaros: -0.040

2010-11
(3 GP) Gustafsson: 0.262
(81 GP) Meszaros: 0.089 (5th out of 6 defensemen who played at least 50 games in his "best-defenseman" year)

Then for offense...

2012-13
Meszaros averaged 2:02 on PP, 1:18 on PK, and 15:07 at EV during his 11-game stint. He only had 2 points last year, one on the PP and one at EV.

Gustafsson averaged 1:35 on the PP, 1:18 on the PK, and 17:14 at EV through 27 games. He had 7 EV points to tie for the lead at a 21 EV point-pace through an 82 game season. Timonen only tied him at a 21 EV point-pace. Gus only had 1 PP point.

2011-12
Meszaros averaged 1:24 on PP, 2:24 on PK, and 16:51 at EV through 62 games. He paced for 29 points through 82 games at EV and 4 points through 82 games on PP.

Gustafsson averaged 0:33 on PP, 0:19 on PK, and 15:55 at EV through 30 games. He paced for 11 points through 82 games at EV on bottom pairing minutes and had virtually no PP time, so he recorded no points. This lack of production is relative to his position at the time. He was not given heavy minutes because there was no need for it.

2010-11
Meszaros averaged 2:26 on PP, 2:02 on PK, and 16:38 at EV through 81 games. He paced for 26 EV points and 6 PP points.

Gustafsson averaged 0:13 on PP, no time on the PK, and 10:43 at EV through 3 games. He produced no points, but that was an obvious result considering his TOI.
The site I got the stats from had different numbers for quality of competition so I'm not too sure where you got yours (but the fact that there are two different numbers should indicate that these types of stats are somewhat unreliable to begin with, which is why I don't typically like to use these types of stats). Anyway, even assuming arguendo that your stats reflect the truth, I must object to throwing away the rest of Meszaros's career based on his most recent 70 games which were riddled with injury, and giving credence to a 60 game sample of another player. We'll see what happens this season, but I don't think it will be an issue because I am confident Mez will be traded.

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We've covered this. Nearly ALL of his important stats are better than Mez. Also...you use the word "healthy." Mez hasn't been healthy since 2010. Hell, he once injured himself making a routine hit. Just spend like 5 minutes on behindthenet or any other advanced stats site and you'll see what we mean. It goes beyond CORSI. Gus faces either the same or slightly more difficult competition and fares better pretty much across the board.
Again, the site that I used has it the opposite (that Mez has consistently played against better competition). And once again, I am saying these things under the pretext that Mez is healthy. Obviously if he is not, then this argument is moot. I'm not saying an injured Mez is better than Gus. I'm saying a healthy Mez is. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't play because he might get injured. If he's hurt, he can sit in the pressbox and come back when he is healthy. If he's healthy, he'd be above Gus on my depth chart.

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So, we've got a guy who's younger, with more room to grow, with a better health record, with a much smaller cap hit, who has been outperforming the constantly injured expensive guy. Which do you prefer?
To begin with, it is certainly up for debate that Gus has been outperforming Mez. Second of all, like I said in all caps in my previous post, I am not saying I want to trade Gus and keep Mez. I am saying that if they are both healthy, I'd go with Mez. So to answer your question, I prefer Mez (under those circumstances). Now if you are asking me who I would trade, then my Answer is Mez, and that is for some of the reasons you are saying (injury prone and expense of contract).

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07-29-2013, 12:44 PM
  #543
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[QUOTE=DrinkFightFlyers;69727143]The site I got the stats from had different numbers for quality of competition so I'm not too sure where you got yours (but the fact that there are two different numbers should indicate that these types of stats are somewhat unreliable to begin with, which is why I don't typically like to use these types of stats). Anyway, even assuming arguendo that your stats reflect the truth, I must object to throwing away the rest of Meszaros's career based on his most recent 70 games which were riddled with injury, and giving credence to a 60 game sample of another player. We'll see what happens this season, but I don't think it will be an issue because I am confident Mez will be traded.[QUOTE]

Behindthenet.ca is basically the only site I've ever seen anybody use, and it's generally accurate. It has been for years. I only trust them. I suggest you do the same for all advanced statistics.

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07-29-2013, 12:47 PM
  #544
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The site I got the stats from had different numbers for quality of competition so I'm not too sure where you got yours (but the fact that there are two different numbers should indicate that these types of stats are somewhat unreliable to begin with, which is why I don't typically like to use these types of stats). Anyway, even assuming arguendo that your stats reflect the truth, I must object to throwing away the rest of Meszaros's career based on his most recent 70 games which were riddled with injury, and giving credence to a 60 game sample of another player. We'll see what happens this season, but I don't think it will be an issue because I am confident Mez will be traded.



Again, the site that I used has it the opposite (that Mez has consistently played against better competition). And once again, I am saying these things under the pretext that Mez is healthy. Obviously if he is not, then this argument is moot. I'm not saying an injured Mez is better than Gus. I'm saying a healthy Mez is. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't play because he might get injured. If he's hurt, he can sit in the pressbox and come back when he is healthy. If he's healthy, he'd be above Gus on my depth chart.



To begin with, it is certainly up for debate that Gus has been outperforming Mez. Second of all, like I said in all caps in my previous post, I am not saying I want to trade Gus and keep Mez. I am saying that if they are both healthy, I'd go with Mez. So to answer your question, I prefer Mez (under those circumstances). Now if you are asking me who I would trade, then my Answer is Mez, and that is for some of the reasons you are saying (injury prone and expense of contract).
I never implied you said we should trade Gus. But to say Mez is very clearly better than Gus is dubious.

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07-29-2013, 12:47 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
To begin with, it is certainly up for debate that Gus has been outperforming Mez.
Regardless of your opinion, the very fact that it is up for debate tells you all you need to know about this discussion.

If Gustafsson has been playing at a level where it is even debatable that he is better than Meszaros proves that he should be in the lineup over Mez for every factor we've all been listing through the course of this discussion.

Even if they bring remotely the same product on the ice, Gustafsson is the better option for a ton of external factors. That's without the proof that he's better.

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07-29-2013, 12:54 PM
  #546
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the eye test tells me Gus has been the player since he has started getting time with the Flyers. Even with the times he has been jerked around.
In that time Meszaros has not been healthy. I am not throwing away the rest of his career stats for Meszaros. Recent history indicates that one player is on his way up and another is likely headed down the downward spiral.
Gus has a cheaper contract and has been the better player the last 2 seasons. Not sure why there is even a debate.

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07-29-2013, 01:10 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
How does that not support my position? Kane had 8 points in 6 games. That is more points than Carter, Richards, and Gagne combined. In other words, we didn't see the same thing with Chicago in 2010 (i.e. Philly's two best offensive players didn't show up, Chicago's best offensive player did).
Because, as mentioned, Richards' and Toews' line neutralized one another. That included Kane. He didn't do anything special or different that made him stand out.

If you want to blame someone other than the 3rd paring or Leighton, look to the coach.
Quenneville completely mixed up his lines once the Flyers started to become the better team. Laviolette stuck with his guns and had the 3 best defensive forwards go against Toews, Tomas freaking Kopecky, and a Hossa who didn't do much in the series even before changing places with Kane.

You say Chicago's situation regarding their top players was different, but it wasn't. Hossa and Toews (both .89 PPG in the regular season) combined for 1 goal and 4 assists.
The difference was Leighton letting guys like Bolland and Brouwer combine for 11 points in 12 games.

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07-29-2013, 01:12 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I never implied you said we should trade Gus. But to say Mez is very clearly better than Gus is dubious.
It seemed like that's what you were implying when you started mentioning contracts and injury proneness, as those are two things that should not be factored into the equation if both are healthy and on the roster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CS View Post
Regardless of your opinion, the very fact that it is up for debate tells you all you need to know about this discussion.

If Gustafsson has been playing at a level where it is even debatable that he is better than Meszaros proves that he should be in the lineup over Mez for every factor we've all been listing through the course of this discussion.

Even if they bring remotely the same product on the ice, Gustafsson is the better option for a ton of external factors. That's without the proof that he's better.
The only reason it is up for debate is because Gus seems to be one of those players that HF boards gets a hard-on for (see: people calling him a top four defender after 60 mediocre NHL games).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
the eye test tells me Gus has been the player since he has started getting time with the Flyers. Even with the times he has been jerked around.
In that time Meszaros has not been healthy. I am not throwing away the rest of his career stats for Meszaros. Recent history indicates that one player is on his way up and another is likely headed down the downward spiral.
Gus has a cheaper contract and has been the better player the last 2 seasons. Not sure why there is even a debate.
That may be true (Gus on the way up, Mez on the way down). I'm not disputing that. What I am disputing is where they are on their trajectories. Gus may be better than Mez on day and may even be a top four defender as the HF experts are predicting. But right now he isn't. Throwing out a couple of stats that kind of maybe show that he is on the same level as Mez doesn't do it for me. Gus didn't play poorly last year and I'm not really knocking him. I just haven't been impressed to the point where a healthy Mez gets benched in favor of Gus. Obviously, if Mez comes into camp and plays like **** and Gus plays well, Gus will play over Mez. But I'm not making that call on 60 mediocre games for 11 bad games from a reprtedly still injured Mez (read: I think Mez's prior season of 62 games was better than Gus's entire NHL career).

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07-29-2013, 01:20 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't know why people are having problems understanding what I am saying. I don't think I could be any clearer. I AM NOT SAYING TRADE GUS AND KEEP MEZ. I AM SAYING TWO THINGS: 1) IF MEZ AND GUS ARE BOTH HERE AND THE CHOICE TO PLAY ONE OVER THE OTHER COMES UP, I WOULD PLAY MEZ BECAUSE WHEN HEALTHY HE IS THE BETTER PLAYER; AND 2) IF GUS WERE TO BE TRADED IN A PATRICK SHARP-TYPE SITUATION (I.E. NO ROOM FOR HIM HERE SO THEY ARE TRADING HIM TO DO HIM A FAVOR) I WOULDN'T BE TOO BROKEN UP BECAUSE I THINK GUS IS OVERRATED AROUND HERE.
OKAY ... I mean, okay. Healthy Meszaros may or may not be the better defender than Gustafsson at this point, but I have my doubts that any difference is significant enough to warrant a) carrying his salary on a cap-bumping team and b) giving a serious shot to the player who can arguably get better as he gains experience.

Is Gustafsson overrated here? Could be. Considering the lack of defensive prospects coming through the system, even a papier-mâché life raft would look pretty good to a Titanic passenger. Our opinions (minus outliers) on his ceiling seem to vary from a very decent 3rd-pairing guy to a superior 2nd pairing two-way defender. We won't know for sure until he actually gets a shot, for which I believe Gustafsson made a strong case with his play in the past season.

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07-29-2013, 01:20 PM
  #550
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Originally Posted by nevermore View Post
Because, as mentioned, Richards' and Toews' line neutralized one another. That included Kane. He didn't do anything special or different that made him stand out.
Kane had over a PPG in the series. It doesn't matter that the Toews and Richards lines were shut down. Kane was still their best offensive player and he still showed up. Richards and Carter were the Flyers best offensive players. Neither showed up. Think of it this way, if Richards=Toews and Carter=Kane, Carter having a series like Kane would have had the same impact as getting better play in net (it isn't too much to ask for one of your best players to show up when it counts...it should be expected if you want to win the Cup). I'm not sure how you could dispute that.

Quote:
If you want to blame someone other than the 3rd paring or Leighton, look to the coach.
Quenneville completely mixed up his lines once the Flyers started to become the better team. Laviolette stuck with his guns and had the 3 best defensive forwards go against Toews, Tomas freaking Kopecky, and a Hossa who didn't do much in the series even before changing places with Kane.
And that's fine, throw that on the pile then. I am not looking to excuse Leighton (or anyone). I am simply saying that it was more than bad goaltending that lost the Cup for the Flyers and to argue otherwise is silly.

Quote:
You say Chicago's situation regarding their top players was different, but it wasn't. Hossa and Toews (both .89 PPG in the regular season) combined for 1 goal and 4 assists.
The difference was Leighton letting guys like Bolland and Brouwer combine for 11 points in 12 games.
Toews and Hossa weren't their best players. Toews and Kane were. Both were at the top of the list in scoring during the playoffs and regular season (like Richards and Carter). In other words, those are the two guys they relied upon most for offense throughout the season. When it got to the Finals, Toews crapped out, Kane didn't. When it got to the Finals for the Flyers, Richards and Carter both crapped out. For the Blackhawks their primary scoring (Kane and Toews) showed up along with their secondary scoring (the rest of the team). For the Flyers their primary scoring (Richards and Carter) did not show up but their secondary scoring did. You need both to win it all (coupled with good defense and goaltending, of course).

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