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2013 Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): Charlie Manuel has been fired (Aug. 16)

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07-29-2013, 01:20 PM
  #376
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I understand Utley is still a great player, but he is one of the few pieces who can be moved and get a great return on. This team needs to get younger and resigning a 34 year old player to a multi year deal with chronic knee problems is bad business (something that Amaro is great at). This team wont compete for a World Series until Amaro is gone and they bring someone in who actually understands baseball.
This is what I don't get though. You just said you believe Utley is a 34 yr old with chronic knee problems. Why would a team want to give up a top prospect for that? A rental no less. You don't want to sign him cause you think he's old and broken down, why would others be so keen to give up a top prospect and sign him?

I still believe utley is valuable but I feel like a lot of people and teams don't feel the same way. So you'd end up getting a 2nd rate prospect for him and you'd have Hernandez at 2nd base who will probably not even reach the player utley is now.

They would be fine if they just did what I said above. They get younger, they lose bad contracts, they still have marketable players to draw people to games, they're still competitive next year.

The only downside is they will have to lose some money cause of their mistakes in signing a lot of these guys. But sorry if I don't feel bad for guys who are about to get a 5 billion dollar tv contract.

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07-29-2013, 01:26 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
This is what I don't get though. You just said you believe Utley is a 34 yr old with chronic knee problems. Why would a team want to give up a top prospect for that? A rental no less. You don't want to sign him cause you think he's old and broken down, why would others be so keen to give up a top prospect and sign him?

I still believe utley is valuable but I feel like a lot of people and teams don't feel the same way. So you'd end up getting a 2nd rate prospect for him and you'd have Hernandez at 2nd base who will probably not even reach the player utley is now.

They would be fine if they just did what I said above. They get younger, they lose bad contracts, they still have marketable players to draw people to games, they're still competitive next year.

The only downside is they will have to lose some money cause of their mistakes in signing a lot of these guys. But sorry if I don't feel bad for guys who are about to get a 5 billion dollar tv contract.
Look at Beltran, same age and had similar chronic knee problems. He had a great 2011 (like Utley is this year) and they got Zack Wheeler for him. Utley would be the best player on the market. Im sure there is an overzealous gm out there that would do something similar to that.

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07-29-2013, 01:35 PM
  #378
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Walks don't draw crowds.
Neither do losses. People will come out to watch a team win.

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07-29-2013, 01:38 PM
  #379
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Utley should have minimal value, but there's a chance he could bring back a top prospect due to someone paying for a name.

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07-29-2013, 01:39 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Justified View Post
Look at Beltran, same age and had similar chronic knee problems. He had a great 2011 (like Utley is this year) and they got Zack Wheeler for him. Utley would be the best player on the market. Im sure there is an overzealous gm out there that would do something similar to that.
Beltran is the exception that is always brought up but there's a reason that there aren't more trades like this. They don't happen often. Besides, do you really think Amaro would be smart enough to pull that off? All of this hinges on a guy who created this unholy mess in the first place.

Would you rather trade Utley for a subpar package or keep him and trust that his knee problems have been solved?

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07-29-2013, 01:45 PM
  #381
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Is there any rules prohibiting the Phillies from moving Utley and just re-signing him in the offseason? I would hate to see Utley in any other uniform but if he got us a decent package now and we could get him back in the offseason I don't see an issue.

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07-29-2013, 01:47 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Beltran is the exception that is always brought up but there's a reason that there aren't more trades like this. They don't happen often. Besides, do you really think Amaro would be smart enough to pull that off? All of this hinges on a guy who created this unholy mess in the first place.

Would you rather trade Utley for a subpar package or keep him and trust that his knee problems have been solved?
I dont like the chances of Amaro pulling off a trade like that.

If there wasnt a good offer out there, I would keep him and try to sign him to a reasonable extension. Nothing more than two years. If no extension has been signed then in the offseason I would give him a qualifying offer and if a team throws a ridiculous contract at him, I would let him walk and take the pick.

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07-29-2013, 01:50 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Is there any rules prohibiting the Phillies from moving Utley and just re-signing him in the offseason? I would hate to see Utley in any other uniform but if he got us a decent package now and we could get him back in the offseason I don't see an issue.
none as far I know, this would be the best case scenario.

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07-29-2013, 01:52 PM
  #384
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none as far I know, this would be the best case scenario.
Agreed, if nothing else I think he's a good role model for the young guys who should be the heart of the team in the next few years.

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07-29-2013, 01:53 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Is there any rules prohibiting the Phillies from moving Utley and just re-signing him in the offseason? I would hate to see Utley in any other uniform but if he got us a decent package now and we could get him back in the offseason I don't see an issue.
There's no rule against it but it would be a big risk. Teams are more willing to open their wallets over trading prospects. Someone will offer him a big contract the phillies can't match and then utley will have to turn down less money and years to come back to Philly. Has that ever happened before?

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07-29-2013, 02:03 PM
  #386
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Not sure how accurate this is, but my friend at work said he heard the asking price for Lee is 3 top prospects with no salary eaten (probably saw it on Twitter). So in other words, he's staying.

Stupid Amaro. Hope your ass gets canned ASAP.

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07-29-2013, 02:15 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
There's no rule against it but it would be a big risk. Teams are more willing to open their wallets over trading prospects. Someone will offer him a big contract the phillies can't match and then utley will have to turn down less money and years to come back to Philly. Has that ever happened before?
Lee, Cliff.

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07-29-2013, 02:18 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan8828 View Post
Not sure how accurate this is, but my friend at work said he heard the asking price for Lee is 3 top prospects with no salary eaten (probably saw it on Twitter). So in other words, he's staying.

Stupid Amaro. Hope your ass gets canned ASAP.
Jon Heyman reported it earlier.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jo...to-be-enormous

Quote:
Cliff Lee's name is definitely out there in trade talks, and the free-falling Phillies appear to at least be considering trading one of their aces.

However, the price tag on the veteran left-hander is exteremely high, leading some to speculate that ulatimately the Phillies may keep him.

"He's telling people it'll take you three or four best prospects, plus you'd have to take all the money," one competing executive said of Phillies GM Ruben Amaro.

WEEKLY PREDICTIONS
Phillies will deal Cliff Lee
Another executive put it thusly, "You'd have to give up your first born, second and third born, too."

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07-29-2013, 02:36 PM
  #389
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Amaro is too scared to sell off any important players like Utley or Lee. He thinks that if they don't keep contending they won't get their big new TV deal in 2015. The problem is, the team won't contend anyway with the way it's currently contructed and the falling attendence and TV ratings reflect that.

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07-29-2013, 02:41 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Lee, Cliff.
Well it was a bit of a different situation but I guess you could count it. Although the phillies problem now is that while cliff was signing with a 100 win WS competing team, utley would be signing with a .500 team with a chance to be competitive.

As for Lee's asking price, you gotta start high. The Red Sox said they don't want to give up any top prospects for him so they are obviously starting low. Hopefully, they would meet somewhere in the middle. If amaro sticks with that asking price, then he's an idiot.

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07-29-2013, 03:13 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
Amaro is too scared to sell off any important players like Utley or Lee. He thinks that if they don't keep contending they won't get their big new TV deal in 2015. The problem is, the team won't contend anyway with the way it's currently contructed and the falling attendence and TV ratings reflect that.
perfectly said, there are going to be alot of empty seats these next few months, regardless if they trade Lee/Utley.

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07-29-2013, 03:19 PM
  #392
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I've been saying for awhile that the Phils would be ok. They had the money to not be stuck in the rut they were in in the 90's, and they had the players to trade to bring in good young talent. I thought it was going to be a quick couple year rebuild and then back to another 5-6 year run. I forgot that there was a moron at the helm. It's going to be a long decade....I hope he proves me wrong.

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07-29-2013, 03:38 PM
  #393
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Amaro is too scared to sell off any important players like Utley or Lee. He thinks that if they don't keep contending they won't get their big new TV deal in 2015. The problem is, the team won't contend anyway with the way it's currently contructed and the falling attendence and TV ratings reflect that.
I agree & mostly everyone around the MLB agrees with you. I really see no upsides of keeping both Lee & Utley going forward when they still have some good value at the moment. It's either be young & terrible with some hope or old & terrible with no hope.

I really don't understand the idea giving an extension to a player like Utley with declining production & chronic knee problems. I guess the only people on board with bringing him back are letting nostalgia get in the way of common sense.

It was a good run but that era is over its time to turn a new leaf & look towards the future.

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07-29-2013, 05:22 PM
  #394
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I agree & mostly everyone around the MLB agrees with you. I really see no upsides of keeping both Lee & Utley going forward when they still have some good value at the moment. It's either be young & terrible with some hope or old & terrible with no hope.

I really don't understand the idea giving an extension to a player like Utley with declining production & chronic knee problems. I guess the only people on board with bringing him back are letting nostalgia get in the way of common sense.

It was a good run but that era is over its time to turn a new leaf & look towards the future.
Keeping Utley has nothing to do with nostalgia.

Among starting 2nd basemen Utley is 4th in OPS with .835 and 6th in WAR with 2.9. Despite "declining production", he still is better than most 2nd basemen in the league. You can find a replacement for the present Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins. You can't do the same with Utley. The only player on the free agent market better than Utley at 2nd is Cano and the Phillies are not going to pay for that. The Phillies only possibility in the minors right now is Hernandez and he's not going to give you what Utley will give you over the next 2-3 years. Besides all that, he's a good veteran presence and he knows the game better than anyone. He'd be great for the younger players coming up.

As for as his knee condition goes, it is not degenerative and it is manageable. The condition can even go away completely. As far as we know, he's had no problems with his knees this year and he's hit better than he has since 2009.

This isn't just nostalgic. It's perfectly logical to want to keep Utley. It is not logical to keep Utley, Howard, Rollins, Lee, Pabelbon, Ruiz, Halladay, and the rest of the older crew. But I would trade everyone I just named before I would trade Chase, Lee for his value and the rest cause they just aren't bringing anything to this team.

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07-29-2013, 05:40 PM
  #395
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Keeping Utley has nothing to do with nostalgia.

Among starting 2nd basemen Utley is 4th in OPS with .835 and 6th in WAR with 2.9. Despite "declining production", he still is better than most 2nd basemen in the league. You can find a replacement for the present Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins. You can't do the same with Utley. The only player on the free agent market better than Utley at 2nd is Cano and the Phillies are not going to pay for that. The Phillies only possibility in the minors right now is Hernandez and he's not going to give you what Utley will give you over the next 2-3 years. Besides all that, he's a good veteran presence and he knows the game better than anyone. He'd be great for the younger players coming up.

As for as his knee condition goes, it is not degenerative and it is manageable. The condition can even go away completely. As far as we know, he's had no problems with his knees this year and he's hit better than he has since 2009.

This isn't just nostalgic. It's perfectly logical to want to keep Utley. It is not logical to keep Utley, Howard, Rollins, Lee, Pabelbon, Ruiz, Halladay, and the rest of the older crew. But I would trade everyone I just named before I would trade Chase, Lee for his value and the rest cause they just aren't bringing anything to this team.
No, it's a bit of a nostalgia, this city has weird obsessions with players that they just can't let go of some of them.

Utley can fetch us a good return right now, this team is going no where & going real fast, trading him now helps us more in the long term.

I'm not banking on his knees getting better & his value staying the same as it is now in a year or two from now.

We're just sinking a ton of time & money into a Dae-Woo right now. This team needs a completely re-haul not aging/terrible contracts. Amaro's already got a half of team full of those.

This team is going to suck with or without Utley in the lineup, I just don't see the positives of keeping him over trading him right now.

When the majority of the fans are calling for a re-build (epspecially Philly fans who are noted for their impatience) I think it's pretty telling what needs to be done.

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07-29-2013, 06:29 PM
  #396
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We're just sinking a ton of time & money into a Dae-Woo right now. This team needs a completely re-haul not aging/terrible contracts. Amaro's already got a half of team full of those.

This team is going to suck with or without Utley in the lineup, I just don't see the positives of keeping him over trading him right now.

When the majority of the fans are calling for a re-build (epspecially Philly fans who are noted for their impatience) I think it's pretty telling what needs to be done.
Exactly. Another 3 year contract with an option for a fourth at 14m per year for a 34 year old Utley is not a wise baseball decision. It's time to turn the page and move on, but sadly our GM still thinks it's 2009. He's going to bury this team even further.

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07-29-2013, 06:32 PM
  #397
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Can't call him selfish for not wanting to be traded.
He's a pig.

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07-29-2013, 06:33 PM
  #398
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No, it's a bit of a nostalgia, this city has weird obsessions with players that they just can't let go of some of them.

Utley can fetch us a good return right now, this team is going no where & going real fast, trading him now helps us more in the long term.

I'm not banking on his knees getting better & his value staying the same as it is now in a year or two from now.

We're just sinking a ton of time & money into a Dae-Woo right now. This team needs a completely re-haul not aging/terrible contracts. Amaro's already got a half of team full of those.

This team is going to suck with or without Utley in the lineup, I just don't see the positives of keeping him over trading him right now.

When the majority of the fans are calling for a re-build (epspecially Philly fans who are noted for their impatience) I think it's pretty telling what needs to be done.
How does it help us? Taking account for the fact that Amaro is the GM, what do you think the return will be? It's certainly not going to be a Wheeler return. And who are you going to replace him with? Hernandez? Are you just going to slot a scrub in there?

You can rebuild and still compete. They just signed Gonzalez, they obviously want to continue to compete. Biddle and Franco are close. Trade Lee, get at least one of their best prospects. Get rid of Rollins, Pabelbon, and try to get rid of Howard. Obviously you are going to pay a lot of their contracts, but it'll be better in the long run. Then you have a lot of great young players to build around and you can still compete.

You are not going to get the value back for Utley that he is worth. And there's nothing that says that he's going to suddenly regress awfully over the next two years. Why not keep him?

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07-29-2013, 06:56 PM
  #399
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How does it help us? Taking account for the fact that Amaro is the GM, what do you think the return will be? It's certainly not going to be a Wheeler return. And who are you going to replace him with? Hernandez? Are you just going to slot a scrub in there?

You can rebuild and still compete. They just signed Gonzalez, they obviously want to continue to compete. Biddle and Franco are close. Trade Lee, get at least one of their best prospects. Get rid of Rollins, Pabelbon, and try to get rid of Howard. Obviously you are going to pay a lot of their contracts, but it'll be better in the long run. Then you have a lot of great young players to build around and you can still compete.

You are not going to get the value back for Utley that he is worth. And there's nothing that says that he's going to suddenly regress awfully over the next two years. Why not keep him?
What if Amaro re-signs him to one of his bonehead extensions he's been known to give out? We can play these what ifs based off of Amaro's stupidity all day.

With Papelbon, Howard, & Rollins unlikely to be moved there will still be some veteran's left on the team.

You could even move Ashe to 2nd & find a guy to platoon with him.

Utley & Lee are our only real legit trade pieces at this point, the team needs a major shakeup. If the returns turn out to be bad then Amaro gets fired & that's a win in itself.

The bottom line is this team is going to suck for the next few years regardless if Utley or Lee are here or not so why not suck with some potential to be better in the future?


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07-29-2013, 07:08 PM
  #400
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What if Amaro re-signs him to one of his bonehead extensions he's been known to give out?
If he signs him for more than three years, yeah that sucks. I still think the worst that's going to happen is he'll get a Rollins like deal. But really the whole problem with everything is that our GM sucks. I don't want him to trade anyone cause he sucks at that, and I don't want him to sign anyone cause he sucks at that too. He should be fired before the Phillies do anything.

However, we're stuck with him, so I guess I'd rather just keep Utley on a bad contract then trade him for Gillies and Aumont 2.0 and have no one at second base.

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