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Cody Hodgson

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Old
07-29-2013, 01:31 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
I don't know if most of the other letters would do that deal either.

-------------------------------

In terms of strictly "value of", probably a similarly aged young player with offensive upside. I doubt Buffalo has any interest in moving him at the moment, with a host of untested centers who haven't yet shown they can even produce to his level. I'm curious to see what happens for him with another summer of training and a full camp to find out what the current Sabres staff wants to do system-wise.

Contract-wise, I won't be concerned unless he's not inked by camp. The time to be in Rolston's system and working with his potential linemates is important in my humble opinion.
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07-29-2013, 01:35 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Funny how easily the Vanek excuse is used in regards to Hodgson's scoring last year...

everyone fails to note that Vanek had the best pt per game production of his entire career... but let's not give Hodgson any of the credit for that.


Vanek career pre 12-13 0.80 ppg
Vanek previous 5 seasons 0.79 ppg
Vanek previous 3 seasons 0.77
Vanek w/Hodgson 12-13 1.07

who benefited from who?
Great post Jame. When a proven elite-level goalscoring winger's PPG by almost .2 means that someone is doing something right.

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07-29-2013, 01:58 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Do you know this to be fact? Because I have a very hard time believing that. I believe they were dabbling in the idea of trading Hodgson for a while, talks heated up on deadline day, so they made the deal to acquiring Pahlsson knowing full well that Hodgson was very likely on his way on. Also, had the Hodgson deal fell through, I don't think there's any guarantee on who plays where. Who says Hodgson wouldn't have been played more on the wing? He was on JTs wing during the WJC tournament. Is this all speculative on your part? Because the way you are portraying yourself, it seems as if you are citing facts.
Gillis said he would have acquired Pahlsson no matter what. He was only trading Hodgson for a handful of players and one of those players was available at the last minute. It was a trade that came down right at the end of the trade deadline day (the last trade on the tsn tracker for that day). So late that my recollection is they believed the day was done and they were discussing winners and losers when all of a sudden Bobby Mac announced it. The Pahlsson deal was announced early on (16 were made and it was 7th).

I don't think it's speculation. It was a known that AV loved to have that defensive third line center. AV is not comfortable constantly worrying about giving sheltered minutes to any of his players. 5-on-5.

They tried Hodgson on the wing. Despite his claims of it not being a big adjustment he was terrible. Playing the wing at a level far below the NHL (and as good as the WJC is it is far below the NHL), and playing it in the NHL are two different things. Heck Hodgson has found out playing center in junior and the NHL are two completely different things especially when it comes to defense.

This was a team coming off a game 7 final loss and were poised to win another presidents trophy when the deadline was rolling around. They simply weren't prepared to have to coddle someone going into the playoffs and give them sheltered minutes. It wasn't going to happen. Speculation? perhaps but I think it is very solid speculation given the entire body of work with AV as a coach and how they had built the team for the cup run the year before and were following the same blueprint.


Again nothing against Hodgson as a player...kid is talented for sure. However, even ignoring the other potential issues with family/agents he quite simply wasn't fitting the blueprint. The blueprint that was so darn near successful 8 months earlier. They moved him at what was likely the peak of his value as a canuck.

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07-29-2013, 02:06 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post

This was a team coming off a game 7 final loss and were poised to win another presidents trophy when the deadline was rolling around. They simply weren't prepared to have to coddle someone going into the playoffs and give them sheltered minutes. It wasn't going to happen. Speculation? perhaps but I think it is very solid speculation given the entire body of work with AV as a coach and how they had built the team for the cup run the year before and were following the same blueprint.
umpeenth time Ive seen this....

those presidents cup trophies really translate into cup wins.....What they dd they year before was irrelevent.

Any team thinks we won XXX last year so we dont need to change anything this year is seriously kidding themselves.

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07-29-2013, 02:09 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by cramdizzl View Post
Ummm... No, no, and no.

Defensive issues: Hodgson became Buffalo's #1 center this past season, on a line with Vanek and Pominville. Pominville had one of his worst defensive seasons ever, and Vanek is certainly not known for defensive effort. Hodgson was put into a score-first role, and performed it excellently. He was a renowned two-way prospect, and we know he can play defense. The emphasis this past season was not on defense, it was on offense. Do you expect a 23yr old, first time #1C, to put up good defensive numbers against the other first lines of the Eastern Conference? He'll get there, its only a matter of time.

Skating issues: When Cody arrived in Buffalo, his skating left a lot to be desired. Over the offseason, he worked with both Gary Roberts, and Dawn Braid, a skating specialist and instructor that has improved the skating of many, many players, including John Tavares. In 12-13, he made huge strides in skating, and was noticeably better than the season prior. He has gone from 'bad skater' to 'average skater', and is still working on that aspect.

Attitude Issues: In Van, Cody and his camp campaigned for a different role on the team in order to help him improve and succeed. They got it when he was traded to Buffalo. Where are these supposed "Attitude issues"? Of the three things you listed, this is the most ludicrous by far. Do you have quotes of Cody addressing the media and bashing his teammates, or complaining about the coaches, or anything like that? His attitude has been stellar in Buffalo. I mean, do you really believe what you just wrote?

So yeah, great analysis.



Gotta go with Strangelove on this one...


Defense: 24 players were worse than Cody defensively. 24 allowed more GA when on the ice. Vanek and Pomminville were not of those 24. Emphasis on offense and not on defense? Sure. The exclusion of defense altogether to push offense? No, I don't think any team condones this. He can get there. He's only 23. However, to date, I have not seen that commitment from him. If/when he does get it, it will cost him offense, just like it does for most players.

Skating: Watched BUF last season and this season specifically to track Hodgson. I have not seen these "huge strides". He seems no longer hampered by injury. Still, I think a below average skater. Especially his burst. His top straight line speed is decent though.

Attitude: Have you seen the Scott Oake interview when he was asked point blank if he had asked for a trade? Friedmann commented about his camp needing to back off. Winter, his then agent, posted some pretty foolish tweets during the time of the trade, was ridiculed, and then removed them. What young player initiates multiple meetings regarding their role on the team? C taped to his jersey. Stopped attending prospect camps. Still made things difficult after the _Canucks_ doctors found the actual problem with his back. And on...

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07-29-2013, 02:14 PM
  #131
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You're right about Kassian, but at this point, Cody is already AT LEAST a #2C. He was considered an elite 2-way player in juniors, so I see no reason that he can't dramatically improve at this level.

The difference between these two IMO is in the work ethic and attitude. When Kassian was given chances in Buffalo, he completely took them for granted, and basically forced Darcy's hand in trading him. He's got all the talent to be a top power forward, but I'm not so sure he's got the heart to ever get there. In Cody though, I see that heart that makes a great player/captain. I think all the talk of his "attitude" in Vancouver is completely overblown. His parents and agents were pushing for him to be put into a better position to succeed, and they found it in Buffalo. Now that he's here, he's putting in the work, and we're seeing the results.
That is absolutely ridiculous. No player should ever ask to be traded to be in a better "position".

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07-29-2013, 02:17 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Strangelove View Post
Anyway.

Those who like to think Canuck fans besmirch CoHo 's attitude just because he was traded away should take note of how Canuck fans still rave about Schneider's great attitude. It's hard to place a value on CoHo right now due to the small sample size and the fact he has defensive issues... and skating issues... and attitude issues. He's young, he may very well overcome these issues in time.

I hope he does.
This is something that should be highlighted. Most Van fans don't trash every former player, and a lot of us praise a ton that were successful with us (Ehrhoff, Mitchell, Schneider etc). There were issues on both sides in this situation. Management dealt with Hodgson poorly, and CH (with his Dad/agent) also did not handle the situation well. This is not to say that there will be problems in the future as a ton of players mature quickly, but Hedghog wasn't completely innocent in Van.

Although I do wish him the best with the Sabres.

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07-29-2013, 02:29 PM
  #133
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It's weird that you're putting full faith in the Canucks management for knowing bar none "what's best for the team" given their actual results. And a 30% offensive zone start ratio with 40 point on a good day linemates doesn't exactly equal "sheltered" deployments.

Couple of things about the deployments:

Here's an article that breaks it down well: http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2012/02...nster-january/

The lowest Ozone percentage was 33% in DEC. What 30% Ozone deployment over 82 game sample are you referring to? On behindthenet, 2011-2012, 83 game sample is the one we should be concerned with, not the 2010-2011 8 game sample. Here, he's at 52.3% Ozone starts overall.

In the larger sample, before he got traded, he was sheltered heavily in JAN, with 83.3% Ozone starts. That's when he had his best month, and had amassed the bulk of his points. Only his possession stats "cratered" here. During the prior three months, he was holding his head above water given mediocre QoC. Neither an endorsement of his possession game.

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07-29-2013, 02:49 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Couple of things about the deployments:

Here's an article that breaks it down well: http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2012/02...nster-january/

The lowest Ozone percentage was 33% in DEC. What 30% Ozone deployment over 82 game sample are you referring to? On behindthenet, 2011-2012, 83 game sample is the one we should be concerned with, not the 2010-2011 8 game sample. Here, he's at 52.3% Ozone starts overall.

In the larger sample, before he got traded, he was sheltered heavily in JAN, with 83.3% Ozone starts. That's when he had his best month, and had amassed the bulk of his points. Only his possession stats "cratered" here. During the prior three months, he was holding his head above water given mediocre QoC. Neither an endorsement of his possession game.
But I thought you said that these Ozone starts only amount to maybe 10 shots more per season? Based on that, these inferences are meaningless and Hodgson wasn't really sheltered at all. Perhaps he was simply an inconsistent rookie which is something you see out of most rookies?

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07-29-2013, 03:15 PM
  #135
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In hindsight, I can see the whole Hodgson attitude issue from both sides.

On the one hand I understand why a young player would look at where Vancouver was at center and would wonder where he fits on. Let's not forget that hockey players have short careers and need to maximize their earnings. To Hodgson's credit at least he didn't go public and demand a trade thereby limiting the return for Gillis.

From Vancouver's point of view I can see why management would be upset at a rookie demanding a bigger role. This was a team that had convinced Burrows, Kesler, and the Sedins to sign for less in order to have a chance to win. One of the better young goalies was stuck behind Luongo and was willing to do what was best for the team rather than demanding a bigger role. When you start making exceptions for certain players you risk losing the rest of the team. From Vancouver's point of view, Hodgson was a talented rookie with significant defensive issues that he needed to work on.

Again, in hindsight I think that this could have been handled better, especially by Hodgson. He should have just worked hard during his rookie year and tried to improve his play on defence. After the season, he could have met with Gillis and privately requested a trade if he didn't see himself having a significant enough role on the team.

Anyways, water under the bridge. He seems to be working out well for the Sabres. He wouldn't be the first rookie to get off to a shaky start with his draft team and then succeed in a new environment.

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07-29-2013, 03:24 PM
  #136
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But I thought you said that these Ozone starts only amount to maybe 10 shots more per season? Based on that, these inferences are meaningless and Hodgson wasn't really sheltered at all. Perhaps he was simply an inconsistent rookie which is something you see out of most rookies?

He wasn't sheltered based on the Ozone starts alone. He was the worst possession forward with that 83.3% Ozone usage.

His possession numbers cratered because he was facing tougher competition _with_ those increased Ozone starts. Funny how that works? His on ice shooting percentage and his PDO spiked in JAN as well, to an unsustainable level. Read the article and you will see the explanation.


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07-29-2013, 03:33 PM
  #137
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Great post Jame. When a proven elite-level goalscoring winger's PPG by almost .2 means that someone is doing something right.
I see math is not your strog suit. Or even your average suit. The difference between the rest of Vaneks career and this season was .27, and the difference from the last 3 years was .30.

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07-29-2013, 03:43 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Funny how easily the Vanek excuse is used in regards to Hodgson's scoring last year...

everyone fails to note that Vanek had the best pt per game production of his entire career... but let's not give Hodgson any of the credit for that.


Vanek career pre 12-13 0.80 ppg
Vanek previous 5 seasons 0.79 ppg
Vanek previous 3 seasons 0.77
Vanek w/Hodgson 12-13 1.07

who benefited from who?
Andd every nuck fan in this thread has ignored this post

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07-29-2013, 03:53 PM
  #139
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This is something that should be highlighted. Most Van fans don't trash every former player, and a lot of us praise a ton that were successful with us (Ehrhoff, Mitchell, Schneider etc). There were issues on both sides in this situation. Management dealt with Hodgson poorly, and CH (with his Dad/agent) also did not handle the situation well. This is not to say that there will be problems in the future as a ton of players mature quickly, but Hedghog wasn't completely innocent in Van.

Although I do wish him the best with the Sabres.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly. I still like Hodgson and cheer for him in Buffalo, but I'm less than impressed with how he handled his situation in Vancouver by putting himself above the team.

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07-29-2013, 04:15 PM
  #140
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Couple of things about the deployments:

Here's an article that breaks it down well: http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2012/02...nster-january/

The lowest Ozone percentage was 33% in DEC. What 30% Ozone deployment over 82 game sample are you referring to? On behindthenet, 2011-2012, 83 game sample is the one we should be concerned with, not the 2010-2011 8 game sample. Here, he's at 52.3% Ozone starts overall.
So we're picking nits over a 3% change?

Anyway, breaking it down by month matters because according to Gillis' own timeline of events, Hodgson demanded a trade, but Gillis wanted to "showcase" him before acquiescing. His role on a team trying to trade him (January through the deadline) shouldn't factor into evaluating how the Canucks used him when they were still planning on developing him.

Quote:
In the larger sample, before he got traded, he was sheltered heavily in JAN, with 83.3% Ozone starts. That's when he had his best month, and had amassed the bulk of his points. Only his possession stats "cratered" here. During the prior three months, he was holding his head above water given mediocre QoC. Neither an endorsement of his possession game.
The terrible possession figures are offest by Cody's ridiculous shooting percentage that month, and both are likely outliers considering they each displayed regression to the mean in Buffalo.

Additionally, why do Vancouver fans not expect rapid improvement out of him in a legitimate three center system instead of the specialized top six/bottom six roles AV employed, because that's all that's happened in Buffalo.

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07-29-2013, 04:28 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
So we're picking nits over a 3% change?

Anyway, breaking it down by month matters because according to Gillis' own timeline of events, Hodgson demanded a trade, but Gillis wanted to "showcase" him before acquiescing. His role on a team trying to trade him (January through the deadline) shouldn't factor into evaluating how the Canucks used him when they were still planning on developing him.


The terrible possession figures are offest by Cody's ridiculous shooting percentage that month, and both are likely outliers considering they each displayed regression to the mean in Buffalo.

Additionally, why do Vancouver fans not expect rapid improvement out of him in a legitimate three center system instead of the specialized top six/bottom six roles AV employed, because that's all that's happened in Buffalo.
What exactly is a legitimate three center system? Many three center systems still employ the third line center as a checking line center, and no, I don't think Hodgson would have excelled in that role.

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07-29-2013, 04:37 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
So we're picking nits over a 3% change?

Anyway, breaking it down by month matters because according to Gillis' own timeline of events, Hodgson demanded a trade, but Gillis wanted to "showcase" him before acquiescing. His role on a team trying to trade him (January through the deadline) shouldn't factor into evaluating how the Canucks used him when they were still planning on developing him.

His Ozone deployment was 33%... in DEC. 1 month. Not 33% for the season. Behind the net and PassitToBulis have it at much higher through different points of the year, and BTN averages it out to be 52.3% overall, over 83 GP.

I don't understand the meaning of your second paragraph. They used him a certain way for 3 months. Then changed his usage for 1 month in order to showcase him. Is that what you are referring to?


Quote:
The terrible possession figures are offest by Cody's ridiculous shooting percentage that month, and both are likely outliers considering they each displayed regression to the mean in Buffalo.

Additionally, why do Vancouver fans not expect rapid improvement out of him in a legitimate three center system instead of the specialized top six/bottom six roles AV employed, because that's all that's happened in Buffalo.


Terrible possession numbers are never offset by unsustainable one ice EV shooting percentages. Nor is an inordinately high PDO.

What is a "legitimate three center system"?

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07-29-2013, 04:41 PM
  #143
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He wasn't sheltered based on the Ozone starts alone. He was the worst possession forward with that 83.3% Ozone usage.

His possession numbers cratered because he was facing tougher competition _with_ those increased Ozone starts. Funny how that works? His on ice shooting percentage and his PDO spiked in JAN as well, to an unsustainable level. Read the article and you will see the explanation.
So he was sheltered by facing tougher competition and scored at a higher clip as a result? Makes sense...

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07-29-2013, 04:43 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Funny how easily the Vanek excuse is used in regards to Hodgson's scoring last year...

everyone fails to note that Vanek had the best pt per game production of his entire career... but let's not give Hodgson any of the credit for that.


Vanek career pre 12-13 0.80 ppg
Vanek previous 5 seasons 0.79 ppg
Vanek previous 3 seasons 0.77
Vanek w/Hodgson 12-13 1.07

who benefited from who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroPT View Post
Great post Jame. When a proven elite-level goalscoring winger's PPG by almost .2 means that someone is doing something right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaSquad View Post
Andd every nuck fan in this thread has ignored this post
Right, so the Sabres should give Hodgson a 7-year $50mil contract RIGHT FRICKEN NOW!!!

Wait... "BananaSquad".... okay I get it.

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07-29-2013, 04:48 PM
  #145
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Right, so the Sabres should give Hodgson a 7-year $50mil contract RIGHT FRICKEN NOW!!!

Wait... "BananaSquad".... okay I get it.
Excellent and well thought-out rebuttal.

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07-29-2013, 04:50 PM
  #146
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So he was sheltered by facing tougher competition and scored at a higher clip as a result? Makes sense...
Did you miss the part about riding shooting percentages and high PDO? Or the part where he didn't have to defend during this time? Or the part where his possession metrics took a nose dive facing that competition? I think the team got lucky that Hodgson converted the way he did at that time because everything else was going south.

Again, read the article for a further explanation. Some good insight there.

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07-29-2013, 04:53 PM
  #147
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Right, so the Sabres should give Hodgson a 7-year $50mil contract RIGHT FRICKEN NOW!!!

Wait... "BananaSquad".... okay I get it.
Well at least now we know you don't have anything substantial or relevant to add in this conversation any more. Sounds about right based on your last few posts.

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07-29-2013, 04:53 PM
  #148
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They could have tried Hodgson centering the second line with Kesler playing wing, yet taking draws. Kesler has experience playing wing and looked good next to Sundin, so it would have been plausible, especially since Hodgson has always been more of a playmaker.
Not sure why they never tried that line combination out.
Put the defensive liability at center and the selke on the wing. Glad you're not a coach.


As for Hodgson's value. He's shaping up to be a really good 2nd line center. No reason to trade him. Value can be interpreted all over the place.

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07-29-2013, 04:55 PM
  #149
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Andd every nuck fan in this thread has ignored this post
LOLWUT ?

No Canuck fan that actually watches the game (or the Sabres) would or deny Hodgson is going to be a great player.

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07-29-2013, 05:11 PM
  #150
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Andd every nuck fan in this thread has ignored this post
Every vancouver fan has acknowledged that Hodgson is an offensively talented player. It's his play in his own zone that needs significant work. I think even most Sabres' fans would acknowledge that.

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