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Old
07-30-2013, 08:39 AM
  #26
The Palm Isle
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Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post
But it doesn't make sense.

Is the upgrade defensively from AP to, say, Orpik, worth the downgrade at center from Malkin to Berglund?

No, it's not. It might be an incremental improvement defensively, but weakens the Penguins up front, where they are already thin.
I don't see the Pens as thin up front at all. Their PP and top 6 will still be scary if you swap Malkin for Berglund.

And Orpik looked like a liability to me against the better teams (admittedly, his numbers don't bear that out as strongly as I would have thought).

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07-30-2013, 08:41 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post
If the idea is to replace Martin with a cheaper piece in the top 4 (Despres), why is Pittsburgh adding Pietrangelo, bumping Despres back to the bottom pair?

Any trade that involves a secondary move to buyout/dump a player who still has value to the team...probably is a good trade.
I only talked about dumping Martin in the event that this deal somehow exacerbated PIT's cap constraints down the road. People seem concerned with too much of their money being tied up in 5 or 6 guys, even though that's already the case.

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07-30-2013, 08:44 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by The Palm Isle View Post
I don't see the Pens as thin up front at all. Their PP and top 6 will still be scary if you swap Malkin for Berglund.

And Orpik looked like a liability to me against the better teams (admittedly, his numbers don't bear that out as strongly as I would have thought).
Orpik was pretty poor in the regular season, but much better in the post season.

The top 6 is fine. The bottom 6 is a mess. They have bodies, just not the right bodies. Nobody is afraid of matching up against Jokinen-Sutter-D'Agostini/Jeffrey as a 3rd line.

If one of Orpik or Martin were to be moved, it would be to move Despres into a top 4 role, and use the cap savings to build a better 3rd line.

AP>>>Despres...but on a team that needs probably 2 bottom six forwards, it doesn't make any sense to spend the money there.

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07-30-2013, 08:45 AM
  #29
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Not terrible value, taking it in a vacuum. However, in reality, the Penguins have no reason to give up Malkin for anything less than vast overpayment. I'd come up with a counter-proposal, but if I did Blues fans would justifiably be up in arms. Basically, it'd take more than it'd be worth for the Blues. A lot more. Unless Malkin desperately wanted out, that's simply the way it is.

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07-30-2013, 08:49 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by The Palm Isle View Post
I only talked about dumping Martin in the event that this deal somehow exacerbated PIT's cap constraints down the road. People seem concerned with too much of their money being tied up in 5 or 6 guys, even though that's already the case.
It's not an issue of tying money up in 6 players, it's the distribution of those players.

Adding AP, only to drop Martin, how much does that improve the team overall?
Adding Berglund, at the expense of Malkin, how much does that worsen the team overall?

If you could quantify those answers, if the answer to question 1 is less than or equal to the answer of question 2, what is the incentive for Pittsburgh?

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07-30-2013, 08:52 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post
It's not an issue of tying money up in 6 players, it's the distribution of those players.

Adding AP, only to drop Martin, how much does that improve the team overall?
Adding Berglund, at the expense of Malkin, how much does that worsen the team overall?

If you could quantify those answers, if the answer to question 1 is less than or equal to the answer of question 2, what is the incentive for Pittsburgh?
You've put it well, and clearly where we differ is I'm not so sure those two swaps don't result in a net ahead for Pittsburgh (not to mention the Malkin-to-KHL disaster scenario. 2% chance I know, but still). But you know your team better than I do I suppose.

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07-30-2013, 08:59 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by The Palm Isle View Post
You've put it well, and clearly where we differ is I'm not so sure those two swaps don't result in a net ahead for Pittsburgh (not to mention the Malkin-to-KHL disaster scenario. 2% chance I know, but still). But you know your team better than I do I suppose.
If the trade was (totally spitballing here)...

AP
Berglund
Oshie
Schwartz

for

Malkin
Niskanen
Orpik

...not saying Pittsburgh does it (I still believe Malkin is more important than adding another D, even one as good as AP), it at least makes sense for Pittsburgh.

Bennett - Crosby - Oshie
Kunitz - Berglund - Neal
Schwartz - Sutter - Dupuis

as a top 9...you can argue it balances out the forwards.

The deal only makes sense if what Orpik/Martin can be swapped for can make Pittsburgh a deeper team.

The original proposal doesn't do that.

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Old
07-30-2013, 09:16 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post
If the trade was (totally spitballing here)...

The deal only makes sense if what Orpik/Martin can be swapped for can make Pittsburgh a deeper team.
Whenever I watch PIT against a good team, all I can think about is how good a 25-27 minute, steady, strong-head-on-his-shoulders guy (read: not Letang) would look on that team.

Depth comes down to coaching, system, and finding the right mix of guys. You are right that this trade doesn't address that. Seems to me what it does address is much greater though.

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07-30-2013, 09:24 AM
  #34
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Malkin is untouchable. UN. TOUCH. A. BLE. you'd think his EIGHT YEAR EXTENSION would help push that idea, but here we are, still making boneheaded offers for Malkin. plus, i assume AP is untouchable too (or at least he should be)

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07-30-2013, 09:27 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by The Palm Isle View Post
Whenever I watch PIT against a good team, all I can think about is how good a 25-27 minute, steady, strong-head-on-his-shoulders guy (read: not Letang) would look on that team.

Depth comes down to coaching, system, and finding the right mix of guys. You are right that this trade doesn't address that. Seems to me what it does address is much greater though.
no it doesn't. sure, they get Pietrangelo, a GREAT defenseman who is also due a gigantic contract. they also lose one of the best players in the entire world. not just one of their best players, one of THE best players.

i turn this down 10 times out of 10 and i don't care how awesome AP is. why would the Pens draft a glut of defensemen in early rounds only to trade their offense (which is lacking prospect-wise as it is) for MORE defense?

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Old
07-30-2013, 09:37 AM
  #36
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Can't believe this has not been said. Pittsburgh NEEDS Malkin as the insurance policy in case Crosby gets hurt again. Imagine Pittsburgh doing this kind of deal then Sid goes down again....Berglund, Sutter, Jussi as the 1,2,3 C NOT GOOD!

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Old
07-30-2013, 09:41 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post
But it doesn't make sense.

Is the upgrade defensively from AP to, say, Orpik, worth the downgrade at center from Malkin to Berglund?

No, it's not. It might be an incremental improvement defensively, but weakens the Penguins up front, where they are already thin.
Did you really just call the PENGUINS, the PITTSBURGH Penguins, thin up front? The team with arguably the 2 best centers in the league (Stamkos is in that discussion), Neal, Dupuis (who scored what, 35 goals or something last year IIRC), Kunitz, Sutter, Beau Bennett (who is a good young player), etc. ? Say what you want about your bottom 6, if your top 6 are playing close to 50 minutes a night with that level of talent, you are anything but 'thin' up front.

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07-30-2013, 09:45 AM
  #38
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As much as I want Malkin we couldn't do this. It would destroy our defense, and we couldn't afford Malkin.

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Old
07-30-2013, 09:47 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
Did you really just call the PENGUINS, the PITTSBURGH Penguins, thin up front? The team with arguably the 2 best centers in the league (Stamkos is in that discussion), Neal, Dupuis (who scored what, 35 goals or something last year IIRC), Kunitz, Sutter, Beau Bennett (who is a good young player), etc. ? Say what you want about your bottom 6, if your top 6 are playing close to 50 minutes a night with that level of talent, you are anything but 'thin' up front.
The bottom 6 is definitely much thinner than it has been in previous years, Sutter's a good young player but his line is never going to be the workhorse that was the Cooke - Staal - Kennedy line. In an ideal world Pens would bring in top 6 winger to push Dupuis to the 3rd line (or at least have the option). That doesn't seem likely to happen this year with the cap and it looks like they'd have to develop their own or trade for one.

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07-30-2013, 09:59 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
Did you really just call the PENGUINS, the PITTSBURGH Penguins, thin up front? The team with arguably the 2 best centers in the league (Stamkos is in that discussion), Neal, Dupuis (who scored what, 35 goals or something last year IIRC), Kunitz, Sutter, Beau Bennett (who is a good young player), etc. ? Say what you want about your bottom 6, if your top 6 are playing close to 50 minutes a night with that level of talent, you are anything but 'thin' up front.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
The bottom 6 is definitely much thinner than it has been in previous years, Sutter's a good young player but his line is never going to be the workhorse that was the Cooke - Staal - Kennedy line. In an ideal world Pens would bring in top 6 winger to push Dupuis to the 3rd line (or at least have the option). That doesn't seem likely to happen this year with the cap and it looks like they'd have to develop their own or trade for one.
They are an injury away from having Jussi Jokinen as a top 6 center, and maybe the softest 3rd line in the league.

As most posters who hang around the Penguins board will agree, the team will be fine from October - April. It's April - June (hopefully) that is the problem. As Boston showed, neutralize 87 and 71, and there isn't much to worry about after that. Other teams will feast on the Pens bottom 6 as currently constructed.

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07-30-2013, 10:00 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post
If the trade was (totally spitballing here)...

AP
Berglund
Oshie
Schwartz

for

Malkin
Niskanen
Orpik

...not saying Pittsburgh does it (I still believe Malkin is more important than adding another D, even one as good as AP), it at least makes sense for Pittsburgh.

Bennett - Crosby - Oshie
Kunitz - Berglund - Neal
Schwartz - Sutter - Dupuis

as a top 9...you can argue it balances out the forwards.

The deal only makes sense if what Orpik/Martin can be swapped for can make Pittsburgh a deeper team.

The original proposal doesn't do that.
And the Blues don't touch that deal. It destroys our offensive depth, and makes our defense much worse.

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Old
07-30-2013, 10:02 AM
  #42
SuburbanRhythm
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And the Blues don't touch that deal. It destroys our offensive depth, and makes our defense much worse.
So we're all (most?) in agreement it doesn't make much sense from either perspective?

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Old
07-30-2013, 10:22 AM
  #43
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Why do people keep doing this?

Oh, yeah, I forgot.

( ) Malkin wants to be DA MAN.
( ) Earn league maximum.
( ) Hates Crosby.
( ) Will bolt for Russia.
( ) Doesn't backcheck.
( ) Can be replaced by Tyler Kennedy/ Beau Bennett/ someone else I for some strange reason think is a center.
( ) Has a stupid hair cut.

Check all that apply.

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07-30-2013, 10:30 AM
  #44
Gwydyr
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Originally Posted by TorstenFrings View Post
Why do people keep doing this?

Oh, yeah, I forgot.

(x) Malkin wants to be DA MAN.
(x) Earn league maximum.
(x) Hates Crosby.
(x) Will bolt for Russia.
(x) Doesn't backcheck.
(x) Can be replaced by Tyler Kennedy/ Beau Bennett/ someone else I for some strange reason think is a center.
(x) Has a stupid hair cut.

Check all that apply.
(x) Takes selfies during the game


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07-30-2013, 10:32 AM
  #45
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No. Bennett was a right wing his whole life but moved to left last year to play with Malkin and Neal.
played center at some point during his BCHL career. but for all intents and purposes, dude is a RW who has played a bit of left.

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07-30-2013, 10:38 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post
So we're all (most?) in agreement it doesn't make much sense from either perspective?
Works for me

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07-30-2013, 10:41 AM
  #47
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I feel like I'm in the twilight zone in this thread.

Malkin's contract is terrible! He's going back to Russia! Pens are deep offensively and don't need him! It's a great idea to tie up 14+ million in two defensemen (Letang and Pietro), even though the team is deep in blue chip defensive prospects!

You have to be ****ing kidding me.

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Old
07-30-2013, 10:52 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post
So we're all (most?) in agreement it doesn't make much sense from either perspective?
I would hope so.

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Old
07-30-2013, 10:56 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by terex View Post
I feel like I'm in the twilight zone in this thread.

Malkin's contract is terrible! He's going back to Russia! Pens are deep offensively and don't need him! It's a great idea to tie up 14+ million in two defensemen (Letang and Pietro), even though the team is deep in blue chip defensive prospects!

You have to be ****ing kidding me.
I honestly belief this "terrible contract" argument for everyone earning >5m is getting way out of hand on these boards. These days every contract is terrible and every 18 year old with zero NHL games is "worth" more than Perry, Malkin or Giroux, because "TERRIBLE CONTRACT." You'd think you were talking to a bunch of accountants who have never watched a game of hockey.

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Old
07-30-2013, 11:00 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorstenFrings View Post
Why do people keep doing this?

Oh, yeah, I forgot.

( ) Malkin wants to be DA MAN.
( ) Earn league maximum.
( ) Hates Crosby.
( ) Will bolt for Russia.
( ) Doesn't backcheck.
( ) Can be replaced by Tyler Kennedy/ Beau Bennett/ someone else I for some strange reason think is a center.
( ) Has a stupid hair cut.

Check all that apply.
You forgot by far the most important:
( ) He's a fair guy, and it's just not fair that Pittsburgh has two superstar #1Cs.



(Of course it's not fair, but I channel my irritation and rage at such into wanting to see Pittsburgh humiliated despite same, not into making absurd trade proposals that make me look like a fool. )

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