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2013 Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): Charlie Manuel has been fired (Aug. 16)

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Old
07-30-2013, 07:31 AM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Odd, the more I see them possibly trading Lee, the less I like it.
It depends on what they get back honestly. He's the key to them fixing this team, but I have no faith in Amaro to execute the trade, or if he does, to get good value for him.

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07-30-2013, 07:51 AM
  #427
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Be honest, when is the last time you can think of the Phillies trading someone and getting a good piece back? Trading Rolen and getting Polanco?

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07-30-2013, 08:12 AM
  #428
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Be honest, when is the last time you can think of the Phillies trading someone and getting a good piece back? Trading Rolen and getting Polanco?
Yeah Phillies don't get good prospects in trades. Remember when we traded our best player Abreu for... nothing?

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07-30-2013, 08:12 AM
  #429
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My buddy did this to me the other day, it was vomit inducing. There was like 0 good trades, as far as selling pieces off.

Honestly, and this may not go over big here, I wish we could put Holmgren in charge of the Phils for the next 2 days.

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07-30-2013, 08:19 AM
  #430
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He's a Hanley Ramirez, Chase Utley, Troy Tulowitzki type of middle infielder which is why they would not give him up, but when you're moving a Cy Young caliber pitcher under contract to a team that can absolutely handle the contract then he's the guy you want back. If they say no but we'll give you 3 top prospects and another low A ball boom/bust player then you take it. But you have to be focused on the guy that could be an MVP talent first.
Oh I agree you shoot for the moon, but lets remember Lee is 34 with a major contract. Yes he's a LH and has been durable, but prospects like Bogaerts usually don't get traded for someone like Lee. In comparison, Hanley was traded for a much younger Beckett who helped them win a WS, but wasnt as old or expensive. And some seem to think they regard Bogaerts even more than Hanley.

Ironically today Rosenthal actually argues for the Sox to make this deal, but he says they won't do it either.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/b...iff-lee-073013

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07-30-2013, 08:24 AM
  #431
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Oh I agree you shoot for the moon, but lets remember Lee is 34 with a major contract. Yes he's a LH and has been durable, but prospects like Bogaerts usually don't get traded for someone like Lee. In comparison, Hanley was traded for a much younger Beckett who helped them win a WS, but wasnt as old or expensive. And some seem to think they regard Bogaerts even more than Hanley.

Ironically today Rosenthal actually argues for the Sox to make this deal, but he says they won't do it either.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/b...iff-lee-073013
If I'm the Red Sox, I do it. Especially in baseball, I have no problem trading the prospects for a guy like Lee. You get into the playoffs with Lee in that rotation and you are looking pretty solid. The prospects at issue may well win an MVP award down the line, but if I'm Boston, I trade the WS for ten MVPs every day.

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07-30-2013, 08:27 AM
  #432
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
Be honest, when is the last time you can think of the Phillies trading someone and getting a good piece back? Trading Rolen and getting Polanco?

They got Rowand and Gio Gonzalez for Thome, then traded Gio back for Freddy Garcia .

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07-30-2013, 08:27 AM
  #433
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If I'm the Red Sox, I do it. Especially in baseball, I have no problem trading the prospects for a guy like Lee. You get into the playoffs with Lee in that rotation and you are looking pretty solid. The prospects at issue may well win an MVP award down the line, but if I'm Boston, I trade the WS for ten MVPs every day.
I agree. Remember way back when, a certain team wouldn't trade Ben Rivera in a deal for Randy Johnson?!?!?

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07-30-2013, 08:30 AM
  #434
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Trade the Sox Lee & Young for Bogaearts & Doubront and eat 50% of Lee's salary.

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07-30-2013, 08:42 AM
  #435
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Oh I agree you shoot for the moon, but lets remember Lee is 34 with a major contract. Yes he's a LH and has been durable, but prospects like Bogaerts usually don't get traded for someone like Lee. In comparison, Hanley was traded for a much younger Beckett who helped them win a WS, but wasnt as old or expensive. And some seem to think they regard Bogaerts even more than Hanley.

Ironically today Rosenthal actually argues for the Sox to make this deal, but he says they won't do it either.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/b...iff-lee-073013
That is very true, but here's the thing Lee's value increases as you get closer to the deadline. The reason being the Orioles, Yankees, and Rangers could all use starting pitching help. The market for ace starting pitchers is always a seller's market.So while it would be a "hell no" from Boston in off season, right now it might be a "damn it, fine."

Al Morganti also brought up an idea today, Lee, Young, and Asche for Bogaerts+. Not a bad idea with both Franco and Bogaerts capable of playing 3rd.

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07-30-2013, 08:44 AM
  #436
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Trade the Sox Lee & Young for Bogaearts & Doubront and eat 50% of Lee's salary.
See if the Phillies insist on putting themselves in the same ballpark as big spenders like the Dodgers, Yankees, and Red Sox they need to be willing to eat salary in order to get back higher quality prospects. I understand that Lee is far and away the best available piece on the trade market but 3-4 top prospects AND absorbing all of Lee's contract is a tough pill for any team to swallow and it really narrows the market down significantly.

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07-30-2013, 08:49 AM
  #437
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That is very true, but here's the thing Lee's value increases as you get closer to the deadline. The reason being the Orioles, Yankees, and Rangers could all use starting pitching help. The market for ace starting pitchers is always a seller's market.So while it would be a "hell no" from Boston in off season, right now it might be a "damn it, fine."

Al Morganti also brought up an idea today, Lee, Young, and Asche for Bogaerts+. Not a bad idea with both Franco and Bogaerts capable of playing 3rd.
I'm not totally against it, the Phils can't have 3 solid to stud prospects all playing the same position. With Franco murdering AA, Asche doesn't have much of a future.

I thought Bogaearts was a SS

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07-30-2013, 08:57 AM
  #438
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They got Rowand and Gio Gonzalez for Thome, then traded Gio back for Freddy Garcia .
I don't really remember Gio being that highly touted back then, maybe I'm wrong. But seriously, when I look at the Phillies selling, I think of the 4 worst trades I've probably ever seen.

Bobby Abreu for C. J. Henry, Matt Smith, Jesus Sanchez, and Carlos Monasterios. The most production we got out of that trade was Matt Smith being a decent LOOGY/back end guy, who then got hurt. That trade blew so hard.

Curt Schilling for Travis Lee, Omar Daal, Nelson Figueroa and Vicente Padilla. Good lord. Travis Lee was brutal. Omar Daal was brutal. It's painful when the best player you get for your stud ace that goes on to win a team a World Series is Vicente Padilla and his patented floatilla pitch. He was okay, but when I'm trading a guy like Schilling, I want something better. I know Lee was a pretty highly touted prospect, but God, did that ever blow up in our face.

Scott Rolen and Doug Nickel for Mike Timlin, Placido Polanco, and Bud Smith. Bud Smith may as well have been hanging out with Jimmy Hoffa after he threw the no-hitter for the Cardinals. Mike Timlin was a decent bullpen arm but really pretty unimpressive in his ONE YEAR with the Phillies. Placido Polanco was a very solid hitter for the Phillies during his time here. Unfortunately, he was traded to the Tigers, where he of course had some of his best years, for a Venezuelan version of the Human Torch. Ugueth Urbina wasn't only pretty rough in his outings with the Phillies, he also attempted to murder someone with fire. I really wish the Phillies kept Polanco and moved him to third to allow Utley to make his ascent to the majors, rather than moving Polly altogether. Imagine the Phillies 06-09 with Polanco hitting over .300 in THAT lineup. Wow.

Cliff Lee to the Mariners for JC Ramirez, Philippe Aumont, and Tyson Gillies. Now, the jury may still be out on how these three guys develop, but considering all the rumors I heard on the haul we'd possibly get for Lee, this trade looks to be absolutely God awful. I know they got him back and all that, but come on. Maximize your value. Unfortunately, this is what I expect Lee to be moved for this season.

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07-30-2013, 08:58 AM
  #439
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I thought Bogaearts was a SS
He plays there now, but he'll probably have to move to another position.

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07-30-2013, 08:58 AM
  #440
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I'm not totally against it, the Phils can't have 3 solid to stud prospects all playing the same position. With Franco murdering AA, Asche doesn't have much of a future.

I thought Bogaearts was a SS
He is, but that means he's capable of playing 3rd or 2nd, and the Phils have Crawford that I think projects more as a typical SS. FLYguy3911 and Montreal will probably know more, I just go off of what I read, their prospect profiles, and their stats.

It's also my belief that you can find spots for these guys to play. It's not the same as having an overload of 1B's or catchers.

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07-30-2013, 08:59 AM
  #441
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I agree. Remember way back when, a certain team wouldn't trade Ben Rivera in a deal for Randy Johnson?!?!?
Haha, no I don't remember that. But that's exactly the point. When the Phillies traded all those players for Hunter Pence, I wasn't worried that Cosart or others would turn out to be something special because I thought Pence would be the missing peice. I was wrong, but to me at the time it was just as likely that those players wouldn't turn out to be anything anyway. I wouldn't trade prospects for just anyone, but for a guy like Lee who might be that "missing peice" needed for a WS, I have no problem with it.

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07-30-2013, 09:02 AM
  #442
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He is, but that means he's capable of playing 3rd or 2nd, and the Phils have Crawford that I think projects more as a typical SS. FLYguy3911 and Montreal will probably know more, I just go off of what I read, their prospect profiles, and their stats.

It's also my belief that you can find spots for these guys to play. It's not the same as having an overload of 1B's or catchers.
Franco seems like a butcher @ 3rd, good thing he rakes.

Not sure how Bogaearts is over there.

But yea, Crawford is the future SS if all goes right. Do either one of them have a decent enough arm for RF? Or **** just move Brown back to RF.

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07-30-2013, 09:05 AM
  #443
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Haha, no I don't remember that. But that's exactly the point. When the Phillies traded all those players for Hunter Pence, I wasn't worried that Cosart or others would turn out to be something special because I thought Pence would be the missing peice. I was wrong, but to me at the time it was just as likely that those players wouldn't turn out to be anything anyway. I wouldn't trade prospects for just anyone, but for a guy like Lee who might be that "missing peice" needed for a WS, I have no problem with it.
Im always willing to trade potential for proven, especially for a championship run.

Yea back in '93 the Phils could've had Johnson, but they wouldn't include Rivera so the deal fell through. It was so close that Kruk said they all thought the deal was done in the locker room.

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07-30-2013, 09:13 AM
  #444
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Franco seems like a butcher @ 3rd, good thing he rakes.

Not sure how Bogaearts is over there.

But yea, Crawford is the future SS if all goes right. Do either one of them have a decent enough arm for RF? Or **** just move Brown back to RF.
Franco is the best fielding 3rd baseman in the system. He has a plus arm as well. Not the greatest range, but OK. He's too slow to play OF, so it's 1st or 3b for him.

Asche is more athletic and has more range, but a tick less arm, and not as sure handed. He's a decent third baseman that won't hurt you. He tried second after being drafted and they ultimately moved him back to 3rd. We'll see if they revisit that this fall.

Bogaerts can definitely pick it at third and I'm sure he could play a corner OF spot but you would rather have someone with his bat play in the dirt. Either way if somehow he came here and was moved off SS, it wouldn't be because of Crawford who is at least 4 years away.

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07-30-2013, 09:19 AM
  #445
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Franco is the best fielding 3rd baseman in the system. He has a plus arm as well. Not the greatest range, but OK. He's too slow to play OF, so it's 1st or 3b for him.

Asche is more athletic and has more range, but a tick less arm, and not as sure handed. He's a decent third baseman that won't hurt you. He tried second after being drafted and they ultimately moved him back to 3rd. We'll see if they revisit that this fall.

Bogaerts can definitely pick it at third and I'm sure he could play a corner OF spot but you would rather have someone with his bat play in the dirt. Either way if somehow he came here and was moved off SS, it wouldn't be because of Crawford who is at least 4 years away.
Good enough, I look at their stats and both Franco & Asche have **** FLD %. But I know that's not the be all, end all.

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07-30-2013, 09:21 AM
  #446
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Franco seems like a butcher @ 3rd, good thing he rakes.

Not sure how Bogaearts is over there.

But yea, Crawford is the future SS if all goes right. Do either one of them have a decent enough arm for RF? Or **** just move Brown back to RF.
I think Franco was listed as having the best infield arm in the Phils system, so maybe he could transition to LF if needed. I was thinking more along the lines of Bogaerts playing 2nd, and Franco sticking at 3rd with Crawford at short.

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Bogaerts can definitely pick it at third and I'm sure he could play a corner OF spot but you would rather have someone with his bat play in the dirt. Either way if somehow he came here and was moved off SS, it wouldn't be because of Crawford who is at least 4 years away.
I was thinking it would be because of Jimmy for a couple years, and then because of Crawford. The thing is they talk about acquiring these infielders yet they'll have Utley and Rollins blocking them.


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07-30-2013, 09:29 AM
  #447
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I don't really remember Gio being that highly touted back then, maybe I'm wrong. But seriously, when I look at the Phillies selling, I think of the 4 worst trades I've probably ever seen.

Bobby Abreu for C. J. Henry, Matt Smith, Jesus Sanchez, and Carlos Monasterios. The most production we got out of that trade was Matt Smith being a decent LOOGY/back end guy, who then got hurt. That trade blew so hard.

Curt Schilling for Travis Lee, Omar Daal, Nelson Figueroa and Vicente Padilla. Good lord. Travis Lee was brutal. Omar Daal was brutal. It's painful when the best player you get for your stud ace that goes on to win a team a World Series is Vicente Padilla and his patented floatilla pitch. He was okay, but when I'm trading a guy like Schilling, I want something better. I know Lee was a pretty highly touted prospect, but God, did that ever blow up in our face.

Scott Rolen and Doug Nickel for Mike Timlin, Placido Polanco, and Bud Smith. Bud Smith may as well have been hanging out with Jimmy Hoffa after he threw the no-hitter for the Cardinals. Mike Timlin was a decent bullpen arm but really pretty unimpressive in his ONE YEAR with the Phillies. Placido Polanco was a very solid hitter for the Phillies during his time here. Unfortunately, he was traded to the Tigers, where he of course had some of his best years, for a Venezuelan version of the Human Torch. Ugueth Urbina wasn't only pretty rough in his outings with the Phillies, he also attempted to murder someone with fire. I really wish the Phillies kept Polanco and moved him to third to allow Utley to make his ascent to the majors, rather than moving Polly altogether. Imagine the Phillies 06-09 with Polanco hitting over .300 in THAT lineup. Wow.

Cliff Lee to the Mariners for JC Ramirez, Philippe Aumont, and Tyson Gillies. Now, the jury may still be out on how these three guys develop, but considering all the rumors I heard on the haul we'd possibly get for Lee, this trade looks to be absolutely God awful. I know they got him back and all that, but come on. Maximize your value. Unfortunately, this is what I expect Lee to be moved for this season.
Gio was rated in top 100 prospects when they him, but he had a rough year in Reading. Guess that could be a reason they traded him the next offseason. But those trades you list here were brutal.

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07-30-2013, 09:33 AM
  #448
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Im always willing to trade potential for proven, especially for a championship run.

Yea back in '93 the Phils could've had Johnson, but they wouldn't include Rivera so the deal fell through. It was so close that Kruk said they all thought the deal was done in the locker room.
Good grief. I had no idea. The Phillies of the mid 90s could have been the Diamondbacks of the late 90s/early 2000s.

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07-30-2013, 09:35 AM
  #449
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I think Franco was listed as having the best infield arm in the Phils system, so maybe he could transition to LF if needed. I was thinking more along the lines of Bogaerts playing 2nd, and Franco sticking at 3rd with Crawford at short.



I was thinking it would be because of Jimmy for a couple years, and then because of Crawford. The thing is they talk about acquiring these infielders yet they'll have Utley and Rollins blocking them.
Well the Utley extension was rumored to be two yrs if I'm not mistaken so he wouldn't really be blocking anyone and if Crawford is really our future SS then Rollins isn't much of an issue either as Crawford is easily 4 yrs away.

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07-30-2013, 09:49 AM
  #450
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Well the Utley extension was rumored to be two yrs if I'm not mistaken so he wouldn't really be blocking anyone and if Crawford is really our future SS then Rollins isn't much of an issue either as Crawford is easily 4 yrs away.
Ah, if the extension is only 2 years that's not that bad. Still if they did get Bogaerts I guess he'd be moved to 3rd and Franco would stick to AA/AAA for a couple more years until Rollins and Utley were gone.

I thought I had heard something about Crawford being able to fast track to the pros. Did anyone else see/hear that somewhere?

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