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Old
07-29-2013, 11:49 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by ck26 View Post
These aren't electrons on Xbox, they're humans who have lives and play with teammates on a team. You don't just trade them for the sake of trading them.
Seriously, this.

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07-29-2013, 11:53 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
I personally wouldn't trade OEL for those two, from a fit standpoint. Roll your eyes all you want, but that sort of return (or better) is what it would take for Maloney to even consider moving OEL. Every time his name comes up, I have to beat people over the head with that fact. He has gone on record to say as much. So Coyote fans are not really interested in a 'value' trade.
MacKinnon+ or Duchene+ would suffice. Both Mack + Duchene is an unbelievable sort of overpayment for OEL.

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07-30-2013, 12:10 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by ck26 View Post
But why'd you assume the long-retired Ray Bourque and not the still-active Rene Bourque?

PHX has a 1C. He's called Mike Ribeiro. And a 2C. Martin Hanzal. And a 3C. Antoine Vermette. Yeah, McKinnon is going to be good, but this trade happens in the context if a team. PHX is still a budget team, and can't pay Vermette $3m to be 4C. Add the loss of OEL and the risk of McKinnon busting (or Matt Duchene not relocating / integrating smoothly) and there's no reason to do any of this ...This.
Rene's a winger for the Canadiens. In this thread it is far more likely that someone is comparing OEL to Ray Bourque than discussing Rene Bourque or Peter Stastny.

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07-30-2013, 12:51 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Both Mack + Duchene is an unbelievable sort of overpayment for OEL.
Which is what it would take. There are probably four forwards that would excite Maloney enough to move OEL; Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, and Tavares. If you aren't bringing a star to the table, the Coyotes aren't interested. If it's not one of those four, you are looking at a sticker price way beyond reasonable. I couldn't give two ***** about how that's not good 'value.' That's not the point. This is not a video game, as ck26 pointed out. It's what it would take and that comes straight from Maloney.

In no uncertain terms, OEL is not available for 'fair value.' Coyote fans are getting reamed for stating this over and over again. I don't get it. Are we supposed to be excited about the prospect of pawning off a #1D for some mishmash of value?

Leave OEL alone

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07-30-2013, 01:19 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by tucker3434 View Post
Rene's a winger for the Canadiens. In this thread it is far more likely that someone is comparing OEL to Ray Bourque than discussing Rene Bourque or Peter Stastny.
Rene's a guy the Coyotes might be interested in if the Habs eat some salary, so in that respect, discussing Rene Bourque to PHX makes more sense than discussing OEL to COL.

The trade I was referring to -- dad Stastny for old man Bourque -- would have been a great comparable for this OEL for Duchene nonsense. Stastny for Bourque isn't how you balance out the Boston / Quebec offense / defense. The risk of either player struggling with the new team + fan outrage + locker room outrage would have made that an insane trade circa 1984.

Occam's Razor, folks. Keep it simple, stupid. Unless there's a really compelling reason to turn your franchise on its head, don't do it. You don't shore up the 2002 Red Wings offense by trading Lidstrom for Jagr, regardless of what constitutes "fair value."

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07-30-2013, 05:01 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Which is what it would take. There are probably four forwards that would excite Maloney enough to move OEL; Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, and Tavares. If you aren't bringing a star to the table, the Coyotes aren't interested. If it's not one of those four, you are looking at a sticker price way beyond reasonable. I couldn't give two ***** about how that's not good 'value.' That's not the point. This is not a video game, as ck26 pointed out. It's what it would take and that comes straight from Maloney.

In no uncertain terms, OEL is not available for 'fair value.' Coyote fans are getting reamed for stating this over and over again. I don't get it. Are we supposed to be excited about the prospect of pawning off a #1D for some mishmash of value?

Leave OEL alone
These OEL trade proposals are indeed useless. He's untouchable. That said, asking for Duchene and McKinnon is just idiotic. There isn't a player in the league worth that package.

I think we should just say that we can't really package Stastny in a way that would be worth OEL, especially with his contract situation. Same for ROR. Combining them probably makes it worse

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07-30-2013, 07:22 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by ck26 View Post
But why'd you assume the long-retired Ray Bourque and not the still-active Rene Bourque?

PHX has a 1C. He's called Mike Ribeiro. And a 2C. Martin Hanzal. And a 3C. Antoine Vermette. Yeah, McKinnon is going to be good, but this trade happens in the context if a team. PHX is still a budget team, and can't pay Vermette $3m to be 4C. Add the loss of OEL and the risk of McKinnon busting (or Matt Duchene not relocating / integrating smoothly) and there's no reason to do any of this ...This.
Well my thinking is that even if Ribeiro weren't ancient, he's less than an ideal #1, but would do a fine job mentoring MacK at the start. Of course it would be silly to pay Vermette to centor the 4th line, so you'd start him on the wing, and move him back to C when Ribs moves on to leave you with Mac-Hanzal-Vermette as your 3 Cs. The first is there to make up the lead in development OEL has.

I know this trade will never happen, hell I'm pretty sure Patrick wouldn't trade MacK for OEL plus your first and a quality prospect, but it's one that actually makes sense to me. You add one of the few Cs in the league who's talent at his position matches OEL's skill at his, and who's still cheap for a while to come.

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07-30-2013, 07:28 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by El_Loco_Avs View Post
These OEL trade proposals are indeed useless. He's untouchable. That said, asking for Duchene and McKinnon is just idiotic. There isn't a player in the league worth that package.
Might I point out that it's everybody else coming to the Coyotes and asking what the price is for OEL, rather than Coyotes fans going out and saying "here's OEL, but we want Duchene and MacKinnon/some other absurd package"?

Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.
(Maybe that's how every "Value of OEL" thread should be answered from here on out. )

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07-30-2013, 07:46 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Might I point out that it's everybody else coming to the Coyotes and asking what the price is for OEL, rather than Coyotes fans going out and saying "here's OEL, but we want Duchene and MacKinnon/some other absurd package"?

Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.
(Maybe that's how every "Value of OEL" thread should be answered from here on out. )
I don't disagree, but this section would be pretty slow if everybody followed that rule.

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07-30-2013, 08:17 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
Which is what it would take. There are probably four forwards that would excite Maloney enough to move OEL; Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, and Tavares. If you aren't bringing a star to the table, the Coyotes aren't interested. If it's not one of those four, you are looking at a sticker price way beyond reasonable. I couldn't give two ***** about how that's not good 'value.' That's not the point. This is not a video game, as ck26 pointed out. It's what it would take and that comes straight from Maloney.

In no uncertain terms, OEL is not available for 'fair value.' Coyote fans are getting reamed for stating this over and over again. I don't get it. Are we supposed to be excited about the prospect of pawning off a #1D for some mishmash of value?

Leave OEL alone
I totally understand that. I'm a big fan of OEL. But that said, if I were to ask for Duchene + MacKinnon for PK Subban, people would call me insane, and PK is worth more than OEL. I get that you'd want a superstar centre in return, but saying that you'd turn down two potential superstar centres (of which one is already well on his way to becoming one), then that's just plain asinine. Again, this is purely hypothetical. OEL will not be traded, and I do consider him to be untouchable, save for a big overpayment.

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07-30-2013, 08:20 AM
  #161
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I still laugh that a Yotes fan said they wouldn't take Toews + Saad for OEL

And I think the other one was Lucic + Hamilton

So awesome.

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07-30-2013, 08:51 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by huntison View Post
I still laugh that a Yotes fan said they wouldn't take Toews + Saad for OEL

And I think the other one was Lucic + Hamilton

So awesome.
I still find it sad that some people choose to point and laugh rather than actually get the point.

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07-30-2013, 09:04 AM
  #163
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I still find it sad that some people choose to point and laugh rather than actually get the point.
The point that some fans are delusional on how much OEL is worth?

And that having Toews and Saad would make pheonix way better than just having OEL?

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07-30-2013, 09:46 AM
  #164
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OEL is worth Duchene. There is just no reason for either team to do this trade.

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07-30-2013, 09:53 AM
  #165
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Another thing is funny that people on here think when you trade your best player you gotta get the other team's best player in return.

When Jackets traded their best player, franchise forward Nash, they didn't get the Ranger's best player in return. This is just a recent such a trade i can think of where a best player of one team didn't get a best player in return from the other team.

It's not uncommon in the NHL when a trade involving a best player of a team gets quantity instead of quality in return.

If you guys do research of all the trades involving a best player of a certain team being traded, you'll find it that it didn't get the other team's best player in return.

I think Stastny, ROR, Elliott, 1st round for OEL isn't as bad as people make it out to be on here.

That's maybe not the best quality of the players Yotes get in return but that's still a good quantity of players plus a 1st rounder.

That's certainly better than what the Jackets got in return for Nash.

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07-30-2013, 09:58 AM
  #166
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The point that some fans are delusional on how much OEL is worth?
No, the point that he's not available because he's their #1D and a top-quality defenseman in the NHL, and even Sun Belt teams deserve to have good players.

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And that having Toews and Saad would make pheonix way better than just having OEL?
Actually... no it wouldn't. The focus on blueline skill down there - and the way contracts are set up down there - means they'd have to pretty much reinvent their currently functioning team concept if they traded OEL. Therefore, they'd need to get back somebody who's so overwhelmingly dominant that it justifies reinventing the team. Toews and Saad, while highly awesome players that can significantly contribute to any team, do not justify a team reinvention.

Adding them by just about any other means would very likely be good for Phoenix (there's salary details to be worked out also, but that's a side discussion). But not by moving OEL.

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07-30-2013, 10:03 AM
  #167
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Another thing is funny that people on here think when you trade your best player you gotta get the other team's best player in return.

When Jackets traded their best player, franchise forward Nash, they didn't get the Ranger's best player in return. This is just a recent such a trade i can think of where a best player of one team didn't get a best player in return from the other team.
Not really comparable.

Columbus didn't have much of anything resembling a team structure when Nash was traded. Phoenix does, and a large part of it is evidently dependent on OEL - or someone with his skill level at his price. We didn't have a team identity to lose. Phoenix does. We were restarting our team style from scratch. Phoenix does not have to, and it would cost them a lot to attempt to do so.


Also, of course, there's the massive, overwhelming, so-painfully-obvious-I-shouldn't-have-to-say-it-and-your-post-shouldn't-even-exist-as-a-result point that Phoenix Is Not Trying, Nor Do They Have Reason, To Trade OEL. There's no point, no reason for them to do so. Absolutely none. Not even contrived, twisted, biased but-they-don't-DESERVE-hockey type reasons. None.

And that renders those comparisons moot.


(EDIT: Bonus fact: I don't actually follow the Coyotes. What I do is actually read what Coyotes fans are saying, without blithely assuming that the existence of this thread mandates the inevitability of any given trade. )

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07-30-2013, 10:04 AM
  #168
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This premise of OEL being traded would actually be worth discussing if

1) Yotes did not find a suitable 1/2C this year (Ribero)
2) OEL had not resigned his very nice contract
3) If this was a draft day deal where OEL was moved for the #1 (MacKinnon) +
4) Yotes FO felt this was a move that made them serious cup contenders as opposed to playoff contenders.

Now it just seems a waste of time as clearly OEL is not going anywhere right now without a severe over payment. (MacK+Duchene, Toews + Saad, and the like is beyond ridiculous however as no team would overpay that much just for OEL)

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07-30-2013, 10:25 AM
  #169
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I don't think the Nash situation is comparable because of the context of the situation. Nash wanted out so Columbus had to do what they can and take best offer available.

We all know OEL isn't being shopped so teams are approaching Maloney and it would take an overpayment to pry him out of Phoenix. If the situation was reversed and Phoenix's forward corp is devastated to a point where Maloney is in desperation mode then he would definitely have to settle for fair value or less.
Ok so just show me a trade involving a best player of a team that got a best player of the other team in return.

I really can't think of one. Yeah i know Yotes wont trade OEL, that's the main reason my proposal doesn't look good, but if one day for some reason Yotes want to trade OEL, maybe because he's not happy and wants to be traded, or Yotes find themselves another young d-man that's gonna turn out to be like OEL, or Yotes are very desperate for forwards that they are forced to trade OEL, again this are just hypothetical situations, then my proposal doesn't look so bad all of the sudden.


Look back at Roy's trade, did it get Sakic in return? Nope, it got quantity instead of quality. Yes Roy wanted out of Montreal, but i'm sure if Habs were looking for a better trade than that they could of waited. I'm sure they looked at all options and decided that was the best trade for Roy.

Edit: Exactly, and most of the time when a best player of a team is traded it is because of desperation. No one wants to just trade their best player for the sake of making a trade.


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07-30-2013, 10:49 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by the_fan View Post
Ok so just show me a trade involving a best player of a team that got a best player of the other team in return.

I really can't think of one. Yeah i know Yotes wont trade OEL, that's the main reason my proposal doesn't look good, but if one day for some reason Yotes want to trade OEL, maybe because he's not happy and wants to be traded, or Yotes find themselves another young d-man that's gonna turn out to be like OEL, or Yotes are very desperate for forwards that they are forced to trade OEL, again this are just hypothetical situations, then my proposal doesn't look so bad all of the sudden.


Look back at Roy's trade, did it get Sakic in return? Nope, it got quantity instead of quality. Yes Roy wanted out of Montreal, but i'm sure if Habs were looking for a better trade than that they could of waited. I'm sure they looked at all options and decided that was the best trade for Roy.

Edit: Exactly, and most of the time when a best player of a team is traded it is because of desperation. No one wants to just trade their best player for the sake of making a trade.
Hon? When you have to come up with this many "if"s to justify it, then your proposal is still junk.

(Especially considering that if Phoenix was in a desperate corner, they have many, many more valuable pieces that they can move before they even start thinking about OEL.)

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07-30-2013, 11:27 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Hon? When you have to come up with this many "if"s to justify it, then your proposal is still junk.

(Especially considering that if Phoenix was in a desperate corner, they have many, many more valuable pieces that they can move before they even start thinking about OEL.)
Yeah but if OEL demands a trade I doubt Yotes would find a better package than my proposed.

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07-30-2013, 11:33 AM
  #172
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Yeah but if OEL demands a trade I doubt Yotes would find a better package than my proposed.
Why the eff would OEL demand a trade after signing a 6 year extension, our ownership situation settling, and Maloney getting Ribeiro in free agency?

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07-30-2013, 11:42 AM
  #173
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So to recap:

Yotes fans wouldn't trade OEL for anything less than MacKinnon+Duchene

Avs fans wouldn't trade Duchene alone for him, though they believe the value is right.

Seems like we've got a bit of a gap here, and now we're just going in circles.

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07-30-2013, 11:53 AM
  #174
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Why the eff would OEL demand a trade after signing a 6 year extension, our ownership situation settling, and Maloney getting Ribeiro in free agency?
Oh geez...it's just hypothetical. Although it happened before when a player signed a long term contact then for different reasons got traded before the contract expired. Its not unheard of.

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07-30-2013, 01:24 PM
  #175
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Another thing is funny that people on here think when you trade your best player you gotta get the other team's best player in return.

When Jackets traded their best player, franchise forward Nash, they didn't get the Ranger's best player in return. This is just a recent such a trade i can think of where a best player of one team didn't get a best player in return from the other team.

It's not uncommon in the NHL when a trade involving a best player of a team gets quantity instead of quality in return.
We don't need quantity; we have the deepest D of any organization in the league. We also have a ton of forwards around 3rd line level (Chipchura, Moss, Vermette, Korpikoski, Klinkhammer, etc), and 5 legit (although not great) top 6 forwards (Doan, Rib, Boedker, Vrbata, Hanzal) two of which are centers. The sole missing piece, if we were to move a signficant D for, would be for a top-line wing. You need to make good hockey trades to better your team, not just to scratch your NHL2013 on nintendo itch.

Duchene, while really good, and has loads of potential, would make our team much less balanced, and less suited for Tippett's system, if we move OEL for him. So that is an automatic no; as it make our team much less competitive. MacKinnon is the same in that regard, except you also take on the additional risk of him not coming close to his potential; so in that case, the Avs would need to add something major (like a top 5 pick), for it to be worth it for us.

I would not even trade OEL straight up for Malkin (although I definitely would for Crosby, who is just a much better player; or Stamkos / Tavares, who are still young and have untapped potential). As that trade would make us a substantially inferior team, unless another major move is made (to trade for more offensive chips in order to turn the team into a run and gun system, for example). There is simply no reason for us to move a 22 yr, who is probably going to be a top 5 D in the league for a number of years, for a 27 year old 1st line center that has thrived in the shadow of Crosby; none....

Quote:
If you guys do research of all the trades involving a best player of a certain team being traded, you'll find it that it didn't get the other team's best player in return.

I think Stastny, ROR, Elliott, 1st round for OEL isn't as bad as people make it out to be on here.

That's maybe not the best quality of the players Yotes get in return but that's still a good quantity of players plus a 1st rounder.

That's certainly better than what the Jackets got in return for Nash.
No one cares what Jackets got for Nash; we are not blowing up our team and rebuild right now; we are trying to come out of a retooling era to try to get back into the playoff hunt.

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