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Old
07-29-2013, 08:13 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
My argument was that your best players have to show up to win the Cup, even if your not-so-best players show up.
By your standards, Toews didn't show up either. Hossa, too.

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Richards and Carter were your two best offensive players. Richards led the team in scoring during the regular season and playoffs up to that point. It is not too much to ask for him to generate more offense. He doesn't have to have a series like Briere had, but two points in the Cup Finals from Richards shouldn't be acceptable, even if he played well defensively and other players stepped up.
Sure, but everyone could have played better. Briere, Hartnell, Pronger, etc. You can make this argument for every player on the team.

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But I withdrew my argument because I am wrong. Your best players don't have to show up if other players do. The impact of a goal or two more from Richards and or Carter would not have had the same impact as a better series from Leighton. I agree with the majority.
Are you being sarcastic? Because your last point is spot on. An additional goal from Richards or Carter would have had far less impact than better goaltending from Leighton.

Just mediocre goaltending would have gone a long way in that series.

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07-29-2013, 08:25 PM
  #602
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Can I throw in an early nomination for post of the year?

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07-29-2013, 08:33 PM
  #603
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07-29-2013, 08:50 PM
  #604
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I hope this is okay, Beef.

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07-29-2013, 09:04 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Ok, I'll throw the towell on in this one too. Top offensive performers are excused if other players step up, even in the Cup Finals. Leighton is the main reason they lost AINEC.
Richards showed up. He was shut down by a perennial Selke nominee in Toews. He was also asked with shutting down Toews as well, and did a great job. Those two nullified each other, an impressive feat that should be discussed more.

Mike Richards is not Wayne Gretzky for Sidney Crosby, you couldn't have expected him to break through the shutdown defense of Toews (and probably Hossa, Keith, and Seabrook).

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07-29-2013, 09:12 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Richards showed up. He was shut down by a perennial Selke nominee in Toews. He was also asked with shutting down Toews as well, and did a great job. Those two nullified each other, an impressive feat that should be discussed more.

Mike Richards is not Wayne Gretzky for Sidney Crosby, you couldn't have expected him to break through the shutdown defense of Toews (and probably Hossa, Keith, and Seabrook).
Meanwhile, you couldn't expect Toews to break through Cannon.

Honestly, that series was one of the most incredible battles in modern history.

It had it all...

Crafty goal scoring from the best.
Elite defensemen.
Selke candidates in a chess match.
Lots and lots of hitting.
Unlikely heroes.
And TERRIBLE ****ing goaltending.

That and it will be one of the more talked about finishes in our generation; not in a good way either from our point of view.

I hate that we lost that series. I hate the way we lost that series. I'm proud of having witnessed that series though. I just wish Leighton was an NHL caliber back-up instead of AHL fodder. If he's an iota better, we pull that out of our *****.

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07-29-2013, 09:20 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
Meanwhile, you couldn't expect Toews to break through Cannon.

Honestly, that series was one of the most incredible battles in modern history.

It had it all...

Crafty goal scoring from the best.
Elite defensemen.
Selke candidates in a chess match.
Lots and lots of hitting.
Unlikely heroes.
And TERRIBLE ****ing goaltending.

That and it will be one of the more talked about finishes in our generation; not in a good way either from our point of view.

I hate that we lost that series. I hate the way we lost that series. I'm proud of having witnessed that series though. I just wish Leighton was an NHL caliber back-up instead of AHL fodder. If he's an iota better, we pull that out of our *****.
And what stands out most to me from the national sports media at that time was Woody Paige saying on Around The Horn "It's going to be a lowsy series, there are no superstars!" (Assuming Crosby, Ovi).

And that's when I gave up on ESPN. Those two teams? Epic amounts of depth. Depth of stars. Depth of grit. Wish it had at least gone 7, win or lose.

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07-29-2013, 09:31 PM
  #608
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And what stands out most to me from the national sports media at that time was Woody Paige saying on Around The Horn "It's going to be a lowsy series, there are no superstars!" (Assuming Crosby, Ovi).

And that's when I gave up on ESPN. Those two teams? Epic amounts of depth. Depth of stars. Depth of grit. Wish it had at least gone 7, win or lose.
That entire post-season trumped 2004 for me, which is not an easy thing to do.

The only really epic rides I've been coherent for (I was alive for '87, but just barely) were '97, '04, and '10.

Unless we win a Cup, I don't think I'll ever top that Bruins series...and the way we snuck in...and beating the piss out of Montreal...and the epic clash against the Blackhawks...

Oh man, it was incredible. It's sad that we lost, but sports are for the stories, not the glory. That was one hell of a story.

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07-29-2013, 09:43 PM
  #609
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That entire post-season trumped 2004 for me, which is not an easy thing to do.

The only really epic rides I've been coherent for (I was alive for '87, but just barely) were '97, '04, and '10.

Unless we win a Cup, I don't think I'll ever top that Bruins series...and the way we snuck in...and beating the piss out of Montreal...and the epic clash against the Blackhawks...

Oh man, it was incredible. It's sad that we lost, but sports are for the stories, not the glory. That was one hell of a story.

Still incredible that they had to sneak into the playoffs, beating the King in a shootout with Brian Boucher in net. They barely get in, but then NO ONE expects them to lose in round 1 vs. NJ. The entire playoffs (I include game 82 vs NYR) were incredible.

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07-29-2013, 10:01 PM
  #610
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Still incredible that they had to sneak into the playoffs, beating the King in a shootout with Brian Boucher in net. They barely get in, but then NO ONE expects them to lose in round 1 vs. NJ. The entire playoffs (I include game 82 vs NYR) were incredible.
Man, that was the most heart stopping five minutes of my life. I had such little faith, and Boosh pulled a rabbit out of his ass assisted by Briere and G.

Then to go on and come back on the Bruins? Man, that was something special. That team deserved the Cup. And if they won it, you could have legit made a movie off of that season. Life's not fair...

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07-29-2013, 10:05 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Man, that was the most heart stopping five minutes of my life. I had such little faith, and Boosh pulled a rabbit out of his ass assisted by Briere and G.

Then to go on and come back on the Bruins? Man, that was something special. That team deserved the Cup. And if they won it, you could have legit made a movie off of that season. Life's not fair...
They can still make a movie, it'd just be like Friday Night Lights. Ray Emery can fill the Boobie Miles role

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07-29-2013, 10:13 PM
  #612
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They can still make a movie, it'd just be like Friday Night Lights. Ray Emery can fill the Boobie Miles role
Seriously though.

Emery, healthy, wins us that Cup.

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07-30-2013, 03:16 AM
  #613
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Man.... this is a long off-season!

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07-30-2013, 04:18 AM
  #614
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Aussie Walker gets invite to Capitals rookie camp

The dream of becoming the first Australian to play in the National Hockey League continues to motivate forward Nathan Walker.

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07-30-2013, 08:09 AM
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Richards showed up. He was shut down by a perennial Selke nominee in Toews. He was also asked with shutting down Toews as well, and did a great job. Those two nullified each other, an impressive feat that should be discussed more.

Mike Richards is not Wayne Gretzky for Sidney Crosby, you couldn't have expected him to break through the shutdown defense of Toews (and probably Hossa, Keith, and Seabrook).
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By your standards, Toews didn't show up either. Hossa, too.


Sure, but everyone could have played better. Briere, Hartnell, Pronger, etc. You can make this argument for every player on the team.



Are you being sarcastic? Because your last point is spot on. An additional goal from Richards or Carter would have had far less impact than better goaltending from Leighton.

Just mediocre goaltending would have gone a long way in that series.
But again, regardless of the reasons (Richards getting shut down, Carter being injured), they still needed to show up on the stat sheet. It isn't a hard concept. You want to win a Cup, your best offensive players, the guys you relied on all year and all playoffs, have to produce. If they don't, it is unlikely you are going to win regardless of the other factors. I really didn't think that this was up for debate. Toews and Kane are the Chicago version of Richards and Carter. Richards and Carter combined for 4 points, Toews and Kane combined for 10 points. But again, I conceded the argument. That had nothing to do with it. It was Leighton and always has been.

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07-30-2013, 08:41 AM
  #616
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But again, regardless of the reasons (Richards getting shut down, Carter being injured), they still needed to show up on the stat sheet. It isn't a hard concept. You want to win a Cup, your best offensive players, the guys you relied on all year and all playoffs, have to produce. If they don't, it is unlikely you are going to win regardless of the other factors. I really didn't think that this was up for debate. Toews and Kane are the Chicago version of Richards and Carter. Richards and Carter combined for 4 points, Toews and Kane combined for 10 points. But again, I conceded the argument. That had nothing to do with it. It was Leighton and always has been.
Crosby's 2009 Stanley Cup Finals statline:

7 GP, 1 G, 2 A, 3 P, -3

He was a major reason why they got there in the first place. With his matchup against Zetterberg, who did a good job shutting him down, other people on the team had to step up (see: Talbot, Maxime). Crosby occupying space and being out there is still a contribution. Just as Richards' presence, in effect nullifying Toews, was also a contribution. In those 6 games, Toews put up 3 points, Richards put up 2.

If you remember correctly, that top line (Toews-Kane-Buff) wasn't putting up points (hmmm) and had to be broken up after Game 4. The result? Kane put up 5 points in Games 5 and 6.

The fact of the matter is this. The Flyers -- as a team -- scored 22 goals, that's 3.67 a game. From a purely offensive standpoint, that should always be good enough to win a Cup. Unfortunately, they let up 25. The Blackhawks' goalie stole a game (Game 2). The Flyers never got that.

I don't even blame Leighton. He's an AHL goalie. It's not his fault that he was unqualified to play in the six most important games the Franchise has played in within the last 25 years.

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07-30-2013, 08:54 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
Crosby's 2009 Stanley Cup Finals statline:

7 GP, 1 G, 2 A, 3 P, -3

He was a major reason why they got there in the first place. With his matchup against Zetterberg, who did a good job shutting him down, other people on the team had to step up (see: Talbot, Maxime). Crosby occupying space and being out there is still a contribution. Just as Richards' presence, in effect nullifying Toews, was also a contribution. In those 6 games, Toews put up 3 points, Richards put up 2.

If you remember correctly, that top line (Toews-Kane-Buff) wasn't putting up points (hmmm) and had to be broken up after Game 4. The result? Kane put up 5 points in Games 5 and 6.

The fact of the matter is this. The Flyers -- as a team -- scored 22 goals, that's 3.67 a game. From a purely offensive standpoint, that should always be good enough to win a Cup. Unfortunately, they let up 25. The Blackhawks' goalie stole a game (Game 2). The Flyers never got that.

I don't even blame Leighton. He's an AHL goalie. It's not his fault that he was unqualified to play in the six most important games the Franchise has played in within the last 25 years.
But again, in this situation while Crosby didn't show up, Malkin scored more than a PPG. Crosby and Malkin are their top players and combined 9 points in 5 games (1.8 PPG). Richards and Carter scored 4 points in 6 games (.66 PPG). That is not a showing that typically I would have thought can happen and still win a Cup, regardless of goalies or any other factors. But again I was proven wrong so it doesn't matter. I have abandoned my argument because Leighton was it. A better performance from your two best offensive players would not have made a difference.

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07-30-2013, 10:29 AM
  #618
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But again, regardless of the reasons (Richards getting shut down, Carter being injured), they still needed to show up on the stat sheet. It isn't a hard concept. You want to win a Cup, your best offensive players, the guys you relied on all year and all playoffs, have to produce. If they don't, it is unlikely you are going to win regardless of the other factors. I really didn't think that this was up for debate. Toews and Kane are the Chicago version of Richards and Carter. Richards and Carter combined for 4 points, Toews and Kane combined for 10 points. But again, I conceded the argument. That had nothing to do with it. It was Leighton and always has been.
All you need to do is look at that GWG from Kane. I'm not sure how you can reasonably rip Richards and Carter and paint them as the scapegoats. It's always been Leighton IMO and I am always surprised some fans still think otherwise.

I haven't read all of your points, so if I'm incorrect I apologize, but what percentage of blame would you place on Leighton for the Flyers not winning the cup?

For me, I still blame him for tainting Roy Halladays perfect game. It shows you that despite how pathetic he was, they still almost won.

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07-30-2013, 10:49 AM
  #619
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All you need to do is look at that GWG from Kane. I'm not sure how you can reasonably rip Richards and Carter and paint them as the scapegoats. It's always been Leighton IMO and I am always surprised some fans still think otherwise.

I haven't read all of your points, so if I'm incorrect I apologize, but what percentage of blame would you place on Leighton for the Flyers not winning the cup?

For me, I still blame him for tainting Roy Halladays perfect game. It shows you that despite how pathetic he was, they still almost won.
My overall point was that you can't just point to one thing and say "if X was better, they would have won!" It is a team effort to win and a team effort to lose. I wouldn't assign it any real percentage because it goes beyond that. A little more offense generated by your two best offensive players would have had the same impact as a couple more saves by your goalie, especially considering the three one goal losses.

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07-30-2013, 10:49 AM
  #620
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So he's an Australian born in Wales who played junior hockey in the Czech Republic

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07-30-2013, 11:34 AM
  #621
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But again, in this situation while Crosby didn't show up, Malkin scored more than a PPG. Crosby and Malkin are their top players and combined 9 points in 5 games (1.8 PPG).
Wait, what?! You're allowed to just add Malkin to Crosby now? And Kane to Toews?

Why didn't you allow us to add Briere to Richards before?


And it could certainly be argued that by that playoff run, Giroux and Briere had become our "top offensive players". We certainly didn't know it then, but Richards and Carter were on the decline offensively and Briere and Giroux were our leaders the next season. So if you really want to get down to it, our top offensive players were there. Oh yeah, and then there's Carter's broken foot, too. Not sure why you keep ignoring that.

Besides, Richards and Carter got some ridiculously tough minutes against Kane and Toews for the majority of that series. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Laviolette said to them before the series, "Look, all I want from you guys is keep Toews and Kane off the score sheet. If you can put up points, then that's just bonus". Because Laviolette knew the team was going to generate offense no matter what. He also knew what he had in net, and I am sure he wanted to minimize the threat from the opposing stars as best he could.

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07-30-2013, 11:51 AM
  #622
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But again, regardless of the reasons (Richards getting shut down, Carter being injured), they still needed to show up on the stat sheet. It isn't a hard concept. You want to win a Cup, your best offensive players, the guys you relied on all year and all playoffs, have to produce. If they don't, it is unlikely you are going to win regardless of the other factors. I really didn't think that this was up for debate. Toews and Kane are the Chicago version of Richards and Carter. Richards and Carter combined for 4 points, Toews and Kane combined for 10 points. But again, I conceded the argument. That had nothing to do with it. It was Leighton and always has been.
Carter kind of screwed up the chemistry/continuity of the lines when he returned and obviously wasn't 100% but it was like Lindros returning and then Steven's relegating him to the fetal position...how do you sit one of your key players solely on not messing with the chemistry even if the risk is a legit one?

Richards was spent by the finals....no question. Even Holmgren made a comment about it post season by saying Richards almost did it but didn't and implying that he needed to do more (as far as conditioning) to be that player that gets over the hump. However, I think that was a bit much to expect since Richards was not the type of player like a Toews or Kane to carry the load which partly explained why the Flyers moved him. This is why he had better success in LA along with Carter. If anything it was the Flyers fault for advertising the both of them as premier players and expecting as much when they clearly were very good complementary players despite people howling against such a characterization. This is why they better stop that crap and not do it with Couts and Schenn..

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07-30-2013, 12:15 PM
  #623
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Let's make this really, really simple.

DFF: Are Richards and Carter the worst centers any team has ever taken into the Finals?

If the answer to that is "no," then they do not trump Leighton, who is easily the worst goalie taken into the Finals by any team.

Another question: Was their performance so horrible that they lost games all on their own? If the answer is no, they do not trump Leighton, who did lose games singlehandedly. There is no game where we can point to them and say "Wow, they blew that game for us!" We can do that with Leighton, a few times.

I'll say it again: Richards' and Carter's offensive production, compared to Leighton's performance, was a minor issue. Leighton was far and away the worst problem on the team. He's not even the Rex Grossman of goalies...he's comparatively worse. To make an NFL comparison, he's like going into the SB with a 3rd string QB...when you have that kind of suckage at the most important position, and he plays down to his level, then that is immediately the team's biggest problem by far.

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07-30-2013, 12:16 PM
  #624
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Let's make this really, really simple.

DFF: Are Richards and Carter the worst centers any team has ever taken into the Finals?

If the answer to that is "no," then they do not trump Leighton, who is easily the worst goalie taken into the Finals by any team.

Another question: Was their performance so horrible that they lost games all on their own? If the answer is no, they do not trump Leighton, who did lose games singlehandedly. There is no game where we can point to them and say "Wow, they blew that game for us!" We can do that with Leighton, a few times.

I'll say it again: Richards' and Carter's offensive production, compared to Leighton's performance, was a minor issue.
Reasons Titanic sunk:

95% Iceberg
5% too many deck chairs

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07-30-2013, 12:27 PM
  #625
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Reasons Titanic sunk:

95% Iceberg
5% too many deck chairs
Perfect.

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