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Old
07-30-2013, 01:45 PM
  #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Wait, what?! You're allowed to just add Malkin to Crosby now? And Kane to Toews?

Why didn't you allow us to add Briere to Richards before?


And it could certainly be argued that by that playoff run, Giroux and Briere had become our "top offensive players". We certainly didn't know it then, but Richards and Carter were on the decline offensively and Briere and Giroux were our leaders the next season. So if you really want to get down to it, our top offensive players were there. Oh yeah, and then there's Carter's broken foot, too. Not sure why you keep ignoring that.
I said throughout the entire argument Richards and Carter vs. Kane and Toews. This is nothing new.

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Besides, Richards and Carter got some ridiculously tough minutes against Kane and Toews for the majority of that series. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Laviolette said to them before the series, "Look, all I want from you guys is keep Toews and Kane off the score sheet. If you can put up points, then that's just bonus". Because Laviolette knew the team was going to generate offense no matter what. He also knew what he had in net, and I am sure he wanted to minimize the threat from the opposing stars as best he could.
Yeah that seems likely. A team's gameplan in the Finals is likely to include telling their two best offensive players (one of whom has been pretty well dominating throughout the playoffs) that their offense is no longer needed. If that is the case, then Lavi shoulders a lot more blame that I thought.

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07-30-2013, 01:49 PM
  #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I said throughout the entire argument Richards and Carter vs. Kane and Toews. This is nothing new.



Yeah that seems likely. A team's gameplan in the Finals is likely to include telling their two best offensive players (one of whom has been pretty well dominating throughout the playoffs) that their offense is no longer needed. If that is the case, then Lavi shoulders a lot more blame that I thought.
Are you purposefully missing other posters' points? Or are you just attempting to twist them into something else?

Saying "Your primary goal is making sure their top line doesn't score" is tremendously different from "I don't need you to put up points." Come on. Be honest. And why is that so terrible? Carter had broken feet. He relies on his speed to produce, but he was still playing good defense. Why not utilize him in a way that plays to his current strength? Richards was our best defensive center. The two of them combined were our best two way centers. Tasking them to play solid two-way hockey because the team had the depth to produce anyways isn't as outrageous as you seem to think it is, especially since we needed someone to babysit Leighton.

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07-30-2013, 01:54 PM
  #628
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What does it matter where the offense came from? Bottom line is the Flyers scored 3.67 gpg which has been enough to win for the past 30 some years according to Appleyard's research. We all know the forwards and top 4 d-men did there jobs defensively and the team as a whole did more then enough offensively so how is this not on goaltending? I get a team wins and loses as that, a team, but that doesn't mean that a particular part of said team can't be more at fault when compared to another.

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07-30-2013, 02:02 PM
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I said throughout the entire argument Richards and Carter vs. Kane and Toews. This is nothing new.
Why? Because you said so? Why not Toews+Kane+Hossa vs. Richards+Carter+Briere? What do the stats look like then for your 'top offensive performers'? Briere was one of our top offensive players every bit as much as Richards and Carter were.

Your parameters have been totally arbitrary and you've been changing them to suit your point. You can't give Crosby a free pass because Malkin produced but then criticize Richards for not producing when Briere did.


Quote:
Yeah that seems likely. A team's gameplan in the Finals is likely to include telling their two best offensive players (one of whom has been pretty well dominating throughout the playoffs) that their offense is no longer needed. If that is the case, then Lavi shoulders a lot more blame that I thought.
Yeah, telling a Selke calibre center to primarily focus on shutting down the opposing team's best player is totally mismanaging your talent. Especially when you have three other players playing at PPG pace. Right.

When you have a team with the insane offensive depth of the 2010 Flyers, you are free to use your defensive aces in shut down roles. And it worked. Richards cooled down a red hot Toews, and we continued to get boatloads of scoring from those other players.

So if it worked, why did we lose?

Oh yeah.

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07-30-2013, 02:04 PM
  #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Why? Because you said so? Why not Toews+Kane+Hossa vs. Richards+Carter+Briere? What do the stats look like then for your 'top offensive performers'? Briere was one of our top offensive players every bit as much as Richards and Carter were.

Your parameters have been totally arbitrary and you've been changing them to suit your point. You can't give Crosby a free pass because Malkin produced but then criticize Richards for not producing when Briere did.




Yeah, telling a Selke calibre center to primarily focus on shutting down the opposing team's best player is totally mismanaging your talent. Especially when you have three other players playing at PPG pace. Right.

When you have a team with the insane offensive depth of the 2010 Flyers, you are free to use your defensive aces in shut down roles. And it worked. Richards cooled down a red hot Toews, and we continued to get boatloads of scoring from those other players.

So if it worked, why did we lose?

Oh yeah.
Too many deck chairs?

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07-30-2013, 02:05 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Too many deck chairs?
Love it.

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07-30-2013, 02:13 PM
  #632
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blaming the forwards who scored 22 goals in 6 games in the Cup Final.
it really doesnt matter how those goals were scored. the team scored 22 goals in 6 games and it was not enough to get it done. How many teams scored 22 goals in 6 games of the Cup Final and it wasnt enough. I am going to say the list is pretty short
Yet we dont want to put most of the blame on the ****** ****ing goaltending the Flyers got.
Leighton got yanked twice. TWICE! in the Cup Final. Yet we are putting blame on Carter and Richards.
****ING brilliant.


Last edited by GoneFullHextall: 07-30-2013 at 02:16 PM. Reason: short, not sure
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07-30-2013, 02:16 PM
  #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
blaming the forwards who scored 22 goals in 6 games in the Cup Final.
it really doesnt matter how those goals were scored. the team scored 22 goals in 6 games and it was not enough to get it done. How many teams scored 22 goals in 6 games of the Cup Final and it wasnt enough. I am going to say the list is pretty sure.
Yet we dont want to put most of the blame on the ****** ****ing goaltending the Flyers got.
Leighton got yanked twice. TWICE! in the Cup Final. Yet we are putting blame on Carter and Richards.
****ING brilliant.
Every time I think of Leighton in the Cup Final (aside from the Kane goal) I remember that snapper that Ben ****ing Eager scored from the blue line. Horrible.

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07-30-2013, 02:18 PM
  #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
Every time I think of Leighton in the Cup Final (aside from the Kane goal) I remember that clapper that Ben ****ing Eager scored from the blue line. Horrible.
that goal against was obviously Richards and Carters fault

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07-30-2013, 02:18 PM
  #635
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NHL network showed the highlights from Game 7 at Boston from 2010. Leighton was truly Leightonesque in that game...the goals allowed were awful, and a lot of his saves saw him literally doing nothing but shuffling back and forth with his arms to his sides, hoping the puck hit his chest. It's amazing they won that game.

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07-30-2013, 02:21 PM
  #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
NHL network showed the highlights from Game 7 at Boston from 2010. Leighton was truly Leightonesque in that game...the goals allowed were awful, and a lot of his saves saw him literally doing nothing but shuffling back and forth with his arms to his sides, hoping the puck hit his chest. It's amazing they won that game.
I remember in particular that first Lucic goal looked like it went through him. 5 hole I think, right?

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07-30-2013, 02:33 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Why? Because you said so? Why not Toews+Kane+Hossa vs. Richards+Carter+Briere? What do the stats look like then for your 'top offensive performers'? Briere was one of our top offensive players every bit as much as Richards and Carter were.

Your parameters have been totally arbitrary and you've been changing them to suit your point. You can't give Crosby a free pass because Malkin produced but then criticize Richards for not producing when Briere did.
My parameters have not been arbitrary and changing. The only change I made was I initially included Gagne, but took him out of the equation because he was not one of their top offensive players. I included the top two offensive performers from the season (Richards and Carter) and it is pretty undisputed that those two were their best offensive players on the team. Crosby and Malkin were the Pens two best players. Kane and Toews were the Blackhawk's two best players. Richards and Carter were the Flyers two best players. They were the primary scoring.


Quote:
Yeah, telling a Selke calibre center to primarily focus on shutting down the opposing team's best player is totally mismanaging your talent. Especially when you have three other players playing at PPG pace. Right.
I would say it is. You're talking about great the Blackhawks were defensively, why would you not rely on your best offensive players?

Quote:
When you have a team with the insane offensive depth of the 2010 Flyers, you are free to use your defensive aces in shut down roles. And it worked. Richards cooled down a red hot Toews, and we continued to get boatloads of scoring from those other players.

So if it worked, why did we lose?

Oh yeah.
We lost for a number of reasons, all of which have been discussed ad nauseum. See: the last 100 pages of this thread, the 100 pages from 2010, the 100 pages from 2011, and the 100 pages from 2012.

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07-30-2013, 02:35 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I remember in particular that first Lucic goal looked like it went through him. 5 hole I think, right?
thought that was the 3rd goal. he just walked right in.(went right around Carle of course) and scored 5 hole

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07-30-2013, 02:35 PM
  #639
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Based on the NHL highlight videos (available on youtube), here is my inexpert breakdown of Leighton's play in games 1-3 of the SC Finals. I have tried to be as objective as possible and drawing on my scrub-league goaltending experience. As well, I took note of highlight saves, which we all know are subjective though in this case come from an objective (ie, NHL network) source:

GAME 1
Goal 1 – (Flyers up 1-0)
• One-timer from high slot; Leighton slow to react
Goal 2 (tied 1-1)
• SH breakaway, coughed up horribly by Coburn at the Hawk blue line; Leighton lets it slip between his arm and body. So-so goal.
Goal 3 (Flyers up 3-2)
• 2-on-1 brought about by a bad play by Betts (missed puck and poor position to pick up a Hawk) and an even worse change by one of the defensemen. Sharp picks the top corner short side, bad positioning by Leighton: too far back in the net and trapper down by his knee
Goal 4 (Flyers up 4-3)
• Defensive breakdown allows a pass from behind the net, and puck pinballs (I think, rewatching a few times) into the net. Leighton put the paddle down on the initial attempt, but inexplicably ends up at the far post when the puck goes in.
Goal 5 (tied 4-4)
• One-timer from the slot to high glove side. This is the first on which arguably Leighton had no chance.

BOUCHER REPLACES LEIGHTON

Boucher sliding save on a redirect

Goal 6 (tied 5-5)
• Broken play, Hawks defenseman keeps puck in Flyers zone. Pass to a streaking forward, who dekes a challenging Boucher out and slips it by him.

Notably, there were several highlights of Niemi saves, and one Boucher save, but none for Leighton


GAME 2
Near-miss where floater handcuffed Leighton and fell on top of his pad; ref blew whistle

Highlight saves
Niemi 8
Leighton 5

Goal 1 (tied 0-0)
• Leighton stops the initial shot, but neither he nor Krajicek control the short rebound. Unfortunate, but not a particularly bad goal.
Goal 2 (Hawks up 1-0)
• 30 seconds after the first goal, Eager gains the zone and shoots a wrister from above the faceoff circle, partial screen. Horrible goal.

GAME 3
Leighton down on all fours trying to cover a puck that is about 15’ away from him.

Highlight saves
Niemi 6
Leighton 1

Two highlight saves by Niemi just before Briere’s opening goal

Goal 1 (Flyer up 1-0)
• One-timer from the point. Leighton slow to move.
Goal 2 (Flyers up 2-1)
• One-timer from the point off a faceoff win by the Hawks. Leighton waved at it as it went by him. Another poor goal.
Goal 3 (tied 2-2)
• Kane breakaway. Great moves and great shot. No fault on Leighton here.

I'll try to do the same with games 4-6 ASAP. From these reminders – and the caveat that these are just the highlights – Leighton has not helped the Flyers much at all. At the other end, while Niemi has given up some poor ones, he has also come up with a few sparkling saves.

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07-30-2013, 02:36 PM
  #640
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You can say they lost for a lot of reasons, but those reasons are far from equal. The Goaltending Reason looms large over the whole debacle, like that Leviathon thing from Hellraiser II. No other reason comes close to touching it.

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07-30-2013, 02:36 PM
  #641
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blaming the forwards for that 2010 Cup final loss would be like blaming the goaltending if they lost every game 1-0 or 2-1

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07-30-2013, 02:50 PM
  #642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
Based on the NHL highlight videos (available on youtube), here is my inexpert breakdown of Leighton's play in games 1-3 of the SC Finals. I have tried to be as objective as possible and drawing on my scrub-league goaltending experience. As well, I took note of highlight saves, which we all know are subjective though in this case come from an objective (ie, NHL network) source:

GAME 1
Goal 1 – (Flyers up 1-0)
• One-timer from high slot; Leighton slow to react
Goal 2 (tied 1-1)
• SH breakaway, coughed up horribly by Coburn at the Hawk blue line; Leighton lets it slip between his arm and body. So-so goal.
Goal 3 (Flyers up 3-2)
• 2-on-1 brought about by a bad play by Betts (missed puck and poor position to pick up a Hawk) and an even worse change by one of the defensemen. Sharp picks the top corner short side, bad positioning by Leighton: too far back in the net and trapper down by his knee
Goal 4 (Flyers up 4-3)
• Defensive breakdown allows a pass from behind the net, and puck pinballs (I think, rewatching a few times) into the net. Leighton put the paddle down on the initial attempt, but inexplicably ends up at the far post when the puck goes in.
Goal 5 (tied 4-4)
• One-timer from the slot to high glove side. This is the first on which arguably Leighton had no chance.

BOUCHER REPLACES LEIGHTON

Boucher sliding save on a redirect

Goal 6 (tied 5-5)
• Broken play, Hawks defenseman keeps puck in Flyers zone. Pass to a streaking forward, who dekes a challenging Boucher out and slips it by him.

Notably, there were several highlights of Niemi saves, and one Boucher save, but none for Leighton


GAME 2
Near-miss where floater handcuffed Leighton and fell on top of his pad; ref blew whistle

Highlight saves
Niemi 8
Leighton 5

Goal 1 (tied 0-0)
• Leighton stops the initial shot, but neither he nor Krajicek control the short rebound. Unfortunate, but not a particularly bad goal.
Goal 2 (Hawks up 1-0)
• 30 seconds after the first goal, Eager gains the zone and shoots a wrister from above the faceoff circle, partial screen. Horrible goal.

GAME 3
Leighton down on all fours trying to cover a puck that is about 15’ away from him.

Highlight saves
Niemi 6
Leighton 1

Two highlight saves by Niemi just before Briere’s opening goal

Goal 1 (Flyer up 1-0)
• One-timer from the point. Leighton slow to move.
Goal 2 (Flyers up 2-1)
• One-timer from the point off a faceoff win by the Hawks. Leighton waved at it as it went by him. Another poor goal.
Goal 3 (tied 2-2)
• Kane breakaway. Great moves and great shot. No fault on Leighton here.

I'll try to do the same with games 4-6 ASAP. From these reminders – and the caveat that these are just the highlights – Leighton has not helped the Flyers much at all. At the other end, while Niemi has given up some poor ones, he has also come up with a few sparkling saves.
To be fair no one is absolving Leighton for his part in the cup loss. He's only arguing that Richards and Carter were as much to blame as Leighton was, so this analysis while appreciated doesn't really contribute to the debate if you want to even call it that .

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07-30-2013, 02:58 PM
  #643
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Like Holmgren said...Leighton wasn't solely at fault for the Cup Finals loss but he didn't do enough to help win either. I would actually say he didn't do nearly enough. He was pretty putrid.

I commented earlier in this thread about the NHL Network's classic replay of the 2010Finals and how I had forgotten (selectively) just how bad the goaltending was in that series primarily for the Flyers and that Niemi was marginally better only b/c he made more situational saves just like BernieParent just showed....

As far as Carter and Richards they definitely weren't their best for their own reasons so they were part of the problem as well. Pronger wasn't 100% either...his knee was pretty bad by the finals.

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07-30-2013, 03:31 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
My parameters have not been arbitrary and changing. The only change I made was I initially included Gagne, but took him out of the equation because he was not one of their top offensive players. I included the top two offensive performers from the season (Richards and Carter) and it is pretty undisputed that those two were their best offensive players on the team. Crosby and Malkin were the Pens two best players. Kane and Toews were the Blackhawk's two best players. Richards and Carter were the Flyers two best players. They were the primary scoring.
The fact that you are only using each team's top two offensive players is pretty arbitrary. Why not use one on one comparisons (ie, Richards v. Toews v. Crosby)? Or why not use three on three comparisons (ie, Richards+Carter+Briere v. Toews+Kane+Hossa)?

The fact that you are so insistant on using Richards+Carter to compare to Toews+Kane or Crosby+Malkin reveals the flimsiness of your argument.

I'd say that in 2009-10, the Flyers go-to offensive performers were Richards, Carter, and Briere. If you're willing to excuse Toews+Hossa because of Kane's performance, then you must excuse Richards+Carter because of Briere's performance.




Quote:
I would say it is. You're talking about great the Blackhawks were defensively, why would you not rely on your best offensive players?
Because the Flyers had an incredible amount of depth to rely on other players (Briere, Hartnell, Leino, Giroux, JVR) to get the job done offensively while Richards shouldered the defensive load.

Who else would take on the defensive burden of shutting down Toews if not Richards? It's just smart management of your assets. When you have one player who can do something defensively that no other can do (Richards) and you have a handful of others who can do the same thing he can do offensively, well that makes it easy to delegate responsibilities to your players.



Quote:
We lost for a number of reasons, all of which have been discussed ad nauseum. See: the last 100 pages of this thread, the 100 pages from 2010, the 100 pages from 2011, and the 100 pages from 2012.
Right, but there is one reason that heavily outweighs the others. Like I said, if you want to say, "We would have won had we scored more goals" then you could pin blame on Briere for not scoring more than he did. The fact is, we did not lose because we didn't score enough goals. It doesn't matter who scored them; we had enough offense to win that series.

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07-30-2013, 03:34 PM
  #645
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And just to elaborate on my first point because I can't edit:

Richards/Carter is not a fair comparison to Toews/Kane anyways. The first being that Carter had a broken foot. The second being that Kane's skill set makes him only effective when he's putting up points (similar to Briere).

If you really want to compare these players, then this is better:

Richards v Toews
Carter v Hossa
Kane v Briere

Because you can put Richards and Carter in other roles not including offensive production (as you can Toews and Hossa). You can not put Kane or Briere in any role that doesn't include putting up points. Make sense?

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07-30-2013, 03:35 PM
  #646
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
The fact is, we did not lose because we didn't score enough goals. It doesn't matter who scored them; we had enough offense to win that series.
This is fairly accurate from my POV. Chicago though carried most of the play throughout that series from what I recall. The team as a whole was kind of spent and that is why we really needed Leighton to be our best player and he was by far one of the worst if not thee worst...

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07-30-2013, 03:44 PM
  #647
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
This is fairly accurate from my POV. Chicago though carried most of the play throughout that series from what I recall. The team as a whole was kind of spent and that is why we really needed Leighton to be our best player and he was by far one of the worst if not thee worst...
Yeah, I'm not going to say that the rest of the team played perfect and that Leighton was 100% the reason we lost. We were outplayed and times for sure. But Leighton's performance left absolutely no room for the rest of the team to slip, and it's impossible to win four out of seven games like that. You can't expect your team to play flawless hockey for an entire series. It just doesn't work like that.

And because of that, Leighton shoulders a heavy majority of the blame. Any time your team asked to play perfect hockey in order to win, you are doomed from the start.

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07-30-2013, 04:08 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
To be fair no one is absolving Leighton for his part in the cup loss. He's only arguing that Richards and Carter were as much to blame as Leighton was, so this analysis while appreciated doesn't really contribute to the debate if you want to even call it that .
Thanks for your support. Actually, this stemmed from me trying to remember how specifically bad Leighton's goaltending was, and how much contribution there was from the skaters on goals and other play. And I don't think much can steer the cage match between DFF and Beef; however, it's still interesting to jog my memory on the SCF.

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07-30-2013, 05:17 PM
  #649
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I can not wait till the new season begins.....

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07-30-2013, 05:31 PM
  #650
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Country: United States
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Hey let's change the subject...

Kurtis Foster to the KHL!

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