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07-30-2013, 10:58 AM
  #51
PensBandwagonerNo272
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Creatine isn't a very helpful supplement at all.

It basically helps to avoid lactic acid build up in muscle *theoretically* allowing you to get an extra rep or two in on your sets by prolonging failure due to lactic acid burn.

It might help, but what is going to help you out more is saving that time and money, and using it on proper nutrition.

Focus more on your diet, not on supplements.

Come back to supplements after years and years of learning and progression.

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07-30-2013, 11:01 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryBoss View Post
I'll give you my experience with using Creatine for nearly 3 years.

I gained 20lbs, got a LOT stronger (benched 315 five times at my max), and was really jacked up.

Then I noticed some hair-loss.
There is no hair loss in my family. I know everyone says that, but both my grandfathers died with full heads of hair in their 80's.
Uncles and cousins on both sides have hair that John Stamos would be jealous of.

I did tonnes of research on the subject and despite a total lack of scientific evidence pointing to creatine and hair loss, I found dozens of websites where people complained of the same thing.
On one certain hair-restoration website, a doctor posted hundreds of emails he received on the subject. He said he would get dozens of them each day where someone asked if creatine was connected to hair loss, because they started thinning after a few months of use.
Finally, in 2009, a group from Sweden(?) that tested the affects of creatine and hairloss.
The proved that Creatine caused the increase of DHT - the cause of hair loss.
I stopped using it after I read that and since then my hairline has stayed the same and the small amount of thinning I saw on the crown of my head was restored.

Also, there are links to kidney damage with Creatine.
(I never experienced any though. But I only used for 3 years).

Outside of that, the only other negative is that with pressing larger weights, you better hope your form is right or else you'll add more stress to your joints which will lead to problems down the road.
I have long arms so when I bench, my elbows go below 90-degrees.
That's terrible for the shoulders. But while on Creatine, I didn't notice. I just kept throwing up more weights.

Now that I'm off the stuff, I have a lot more pain in my knees, elbows and shoulders due to my poor form.

I've corrected that now, and through natural means, and proper form, I'm getting closer to the totals I lifted while on Creatine.

I really do believe going natural is a lot better in the long run.
Nobody here knows exactly how much damage can be done to your kidney's, joints and even hair follicles.

Going natural also sets you up for a healthier lifestyle well past your prime years.
And a great supliment is protein shakes. (do your research on that as well. Avoid ones high in cholesterol).
But I have found that eating lots of lean meats, veggies and fruit really does a body good.

But if you're bound and determined to put on some lb's and push your max lifts to the limits, Creatine will certainly help do the trick.
Creatine had nothing to do with your hair loss, or your weight gain.

It had to do with your genetics.

The only thing that would cause you to have hair loss at a younger age would be hormonal changes, which would only occur from using steroids.

Creatine is not a steroid and does not affect hormonal balances in humans whatsoever.

Also, creatine IS a natural supplement.

Just a post full of misinformation.

I think creatine is a waste of money. But it is not unsafe. And it won't cause any of this to happen.

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07-30-2013, 12:25 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by PensBandwagonerNo272 View Post
Creatine had nothing to do with your hair loss, or your weight gain.

It had to do with your genetics.

The only thing that would cause you to have hair loss at a younger age would be hormonal changes, which would only occur from using steroids.

Creatine is not a steroid and does not affect hormonal balances in humans whatsoever.

Also, creatine IS a natural supplement.

Just a post full of misinformation.

I think creatine is a waste of money. But it is not unsafe. And it won't cause any of this to happen.
Then please explain this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19741313

Quote:
Main Outcome Measures: Serum T and DHT were measured and ratio calculated at baseline and after 7 days and 21 days of creatine supplementation (or placebo). Body composition measurements were taken at each time point.

Results: After 7 days of creatine loading, or a further 14 days of creatine maintenance dose, serum T levels did not change. However, levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance (P < 0.001). The ratio of DHT:T also increased by 36% after 7 days creatine supplementation and remained elevated by 22% after the maintenance dose (P < 0.01).
It was proven through scientific tests that Creatine in college-aged Ruby players caused a 56% spike in DHT production after only 7 days.
And like I posted earlier, I'm fully aware that Creatine is not a steroid which is the reason why Testosterone did not increase during this study. However, DHT levels did.

So please retract your statement that I was posting false information.

EDIT: Creatine certainly will help with muscle growth and strength.
My max bench went as high as 315x5. When I stopped, it went back down to 285x5.
Many others have said they've had great success with creatine usage when it comes to gaining mass and strength.
Ryan Reynolds has been on record saying that he saw significant gains when he started using the stuff while filming Blade 3.
I'll never use the stuff again because of the documented side affects, but it certainly will help those looking to gain strength and mass (even if most of it is water gain).

Double-Edit:
Another great link that shows the results from the same test.
This time, they show results from a 2nd group that was using a placebo:

http://www.exercisebiology.com/index...r_your_health/


Last edited by AngryBoss: 07-30-2013 at 12:32 PM.
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07-30-2013, 12:54 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by PensBandwagonerNo272 View Post
Creatine isn't a very helpful supplement at all.

It basically helps to avoid lactic acid build up in muscle *theoretically* allowing you to get an extra rep or two in on your sets by prolonging failure due to lactic acid burn.

It might help, but what is going to help you out more is saving that time and money, and using it on proper nutrition.

Focus more on your diet, not on supplements.

Come back to supplements after years and years of learning and progression.
There is so much wrong with this post, as well as the average poster here's knowledge of creatine.
Creatine is the most proven supplement out there for training. It helps with results, is incredibly cheap (creatine monohydrate is, which is the only one that is needed) and carries minimal to low side effects. Some people get bloated on it and have too much water retention, I personally don't.

I'll explain why people supplement with creatine, and why it's incredibly useful

There are 3 metabolic pathways our body uses for energy, the ATP-PC (Adenosine Triphosphate-Phosphocreatine) system is the bodies first choice for immediate high energy, and we can tap into it for around 10-15 seconds of maximum output, with this being the first energy system the body would use or the startup system.
A simplified explanation as to how it works is that a high energy phosphate bond is broken turning ATP to ADP (A 3 phosphate group molecule to a 2 phosphate group molecule). When the bond is broken with the phosphate group, energy is released. Some of it the body uses in the ways that you'd think (to run, to jump) but part of the energy is reserved for recycling the ADP by attaching another phosphate group to it turning it back into the ATP that you started with. The body does this by using the phosphate groups from phosphocreatine molecules, which are stored in the muscle. Creatine supplementation increases your phosphocreatine stores, and allows your body to more effectively and efficiently recycle ADP back into ATP and that is what allows it to increase performance.

Also, to all the people talking about kidney damage with creatine, it is because a breakdown product of creatine is creatinine which is a metabolic waste that gets filtered by the kidneys and you piss it out. For people with healthy kidneys, this doesn't pose a problem.


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07-30-2013, 02:20 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobimMugatu View Post
There is so much wrong with this post, as well as the average poster here's knowledge of creatine.
Creatine is the most proven supplement out there for training. It helps with results, is incredibly cheap (creatine monohydrate is, which is the only one that is needed) and carries minimal to low side effects. Some people get bloated on it and have too much water retention, I personally don't.

I'll explain why people supplement with creatine, and why it's incredibly useful

There are 3 metabolic pathways our body uses for energy, the ATP-PC (Adenosine Triphosphate-Phosphocreatine) system is the bodies first choice for immediate high energy, and we can tap into it for around 10-15 seconds of maximum output, with this being the first energy system the body would use or the startup system.
A simplified explanation as to how it works is that a high energy phosphate bond is broken turning ATP to ADP (A 3 phosphate group molecule to a 2 phosphate group molecule). When the bond is broken with the phosphate group, energy is released. Some of it the body uses in the ways that you'd think (to run, to jump) but part of the energy is reserved for recycling the ADP but attaching another phosphate group to it turning it back into the ATP that you started with. The body does this by using the phosphate groups from phosphocreatine molecules, which are stored in the muscle. Creatine supplementation increases your phosphocreatine stores, and allows your body to more effectively and efficiently recycle ADP back into ATP and that is what allows it to increase performance.

Also, to all the people talking about kidney damage with creatine, it is because a breakdown product of creatine is creatinine which is a metabolic waste that gets filtered by the kidneys and you piss it out. For people with healthy kidneys, this doesn't pose a problem.
How dare you come in here with your fancy schmancy facts! Creatine sucks, if you stop taking it you'll get fat, your hair will fall out, your triceps will fall off and you'll become a lazy college kid. And let's not forget this is sold OTC, that's how dangerous it is.

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07-30-2013, 03:55 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by PensBandwagonerNo272 View Post
Creatine had nothing to do with your hair loss, or your weight gain.

It had to do with your genetics.

The only thing that would cause you to have hair loss at a younger age would be hormonal changes, which would only occur from using steroids.

Creatine is not a steroid and does not affect hormonal balances in humans whatsoever.

Also, creatine IS a natural supplement.

Just a post full of misinformation.

I think creatine is a waste of money. But it is not unsafe. And it won't cause any of this to happen.

1_ http://www.livestrong.com/article/31...and-hair-loss/

According to The Clinical Journal of Sports Medicine studies have shown that creatine monohydrate increases the levels of Dihydrotestosterone in your body, an androgen synthesized in the hair follicles which can become a barrier between your hair and hair follicles receiving the nutrients necessary to promote and sustain hair growth, therefore resulting in hair loss.


2_ There is nothing NATURAL about SYNTHETIC creatine. The words natural is thrown around way to loosely in our society, same goes for words like fresh and organic and healthy. Without any research or scientific back up, just think about what a man-made creation could possibly do in our body. It is not by any means, natural. It is a copy or a clone of something that is natural, so right off the bat it is not perfect. It cannot be perfect.

Like everything I can think of from the chemicals we put in our foods and drinks, to medicine that is used to treat a cold or cure illnesses, and to supplements for creatine or protein or vitamin C. These are not natural, and they do have side effects. At small dosages, usually they have negligible side effects but the more concentration of these things the worse off you are.

This subject has me more interested in learning about creatine but I still believe there are healthy, REAL NATURAL ways to go about getting creatine from your diet as oppose to taking pills.

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07-30-2013, 03:58 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobimMugatu View Post
There is so much wrong with this post, as well as the average poster here's knowledge of creatine.
Creatine is the most proven supplement out there for training. It helps with results, is incredibly cheap (creatine monohydrate is, which is the only one that is needed) and carries minimal to low side effects. Some people get bloated on it and have too much water retention, I personally don't.

I'll explain why people supplement with creatine, and why it's incredibly useful

There are 3 metabolic pathways our body uses for energy, the ATP-PC (Adenosine Triphosphate-Phosphocreatine) system is the bodies first choice for immediate high energy, and we can tap into it for around 10-15 seconds of maximum output, with this being the first energy system the body would use or the startup system.
A simplified explanation as to how it works is that a high energy phosphate bond is broken turning ATP to ADP (A 3 phosphate group molecule to a 2 phosphate group molecule). When the bond is broken with the phosphate group, energy is released. Some of it the body uses in the ways that you'd think (to run, to jump) but part of the energy is reserved for recycling the ADP but attaching another phosphate group to it turning it back into the ATP that you started with. The body does this by using the phosphate groups from phosphocreatine molecules, which are stored in the muscle. Creatine supplementation increases your phosphocreatine stores, and allows your body to more effectively and efficiently recycle ADP back into ATP and that is what allows it to increase performance.

Also, to all the people talking about kidney damage with creatine, it is because a breakdown product of creatine is creatinine which is a metabolic waste that gets filtered by the kidneys and you piss it out. For people with healthy kidneys, this doesn't pose a problem.
It comes down to how much creatine you are intaking. No? Idk about you but I know plenty of people who take a ton of creatine to get bigger or stronger or whatever. And from what I read, a heavy concentration of it regularly can cause many issues. No?

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07-30-2013, 04:18 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
It comes down to how much creatine you are intaking. No? Idk about you but I know plenty of people who take a ton of creatine to get bigger or stronger or whatever. And from what I read, a heavy concentration of it regularly can cause many issues. No?
Too much of pretty much anything can be a bad thing.
The recommended does is generally between 5-20g a day and the only common complaint is the increased water retention which isn't really a real issue. You'd hold a bit more water but be able to train more effectively.
Healthy kidneys are from what we know can handle the creatinine break down from that kind of creatine intake.
Sure that might change with higher doses, but honestly there isn't much reason to dose like that. I use 10g and don't think there's much point in dosing higher

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07-30-2013, 04:38 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobimMugatu View Post
There is so much wrong with this post, as well as the average poster here's knowledge of creatine.
Creatine is the most proven supplement out there for training. It helps with results, is incredibly cheap (creatine monohydrate is, which is the only one that is needed) and carries minimal to low side effects. Some people get bloated on it and have too much water retention, I personally don't.

I'll explain why people supplement with creatine, and why it's incredibly useful

There are 3 metabolic pathways our body uses for energy, the ATP-PC (Adenosine Triphosphate-Phosphocreatine) system is the bodies first choice for immediate high energy, and we can tap into it for around 10-15 seconds of maximum output, with this being the first energy system the body would use or the startup system.
A simplified explanation as to how it works is that a high energy phosphate bond is broken turning ATP to ADP (A 3 phosphate group molecule to a 2 phosphate group molecule). When the bond is broken with the phosphate group, energy is released. Some of it the body uses in the ways that you'd think (to run, to jump) but part of the energy is reserved for recycling the ADP but attaching another phosphate group to it turning it back into the ATP that you started with. The body does this by using the phosphate groups from phosphocreatine molecules, which are stored in the muscle. Creatine supplementation increases your phosphocreatine stores, and allows your body to more effectively and efficiently recycle ADP back into ATP and that is what allows it to increase performance.

Also, to all the people talking about kidney damage with creatine, it is because a breakdown product of creatine is creatinine which is a metabolic waste that gets filtered by the kidneys and you piss it out. For people with healthy kidneys, this doesn't pose a problem.
Unfortunately, credentials and expertise are not really requisite for posting on the internet. Kudos to you for trying to fight the good fight. I pretty much gave up half a decade ago. Nowadays, I just find solace in the Darwinian view that ignorance will ultimately cull the heard, or, at least the competition.

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07-31-2013, 09:45 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
1_ http://www.livestrong.com/article/31...and-hair-loss/

According to The Clinical Journal of Sports Medicine studies have shown that creatine monohydrate increases the levels of Dihydrotestosterone in your body, an androgen synthesized in the hair follicles which can become a barrier between your hair and hair follicles receiving the nutrients necessary to promote and sustain hair growth, therefore resulting in hair loss.


2_ There is nothing NATURAL about SYNTHETIC creatine. The words natural is thrown around way to loosely in our society, same goes for words like fresh and organic and healthy. Without any research or scientific back up, just think about what a man-made creation could possibly do in our body. It is not by any means, natural. It is a copy or a clone of something that is natural, so right off the bat it is not perfect. It cannot be perfect.

Like everything I can think of from the chemicals we put in our foods and drinks, to medicine that is used to treat a cold or cure illnesses, and to supplements for creatine or protein or vitamin C. These are not natural, and they do have side effects. At small dosages, usually they have negligible side effects but the more concentration of these things the worse off you are.

This subject has me more interested in learning about creatine but I still believe there are healthy, REAL NATURAL ways to go about getting creatine from your diet as oppose to taking pills.
What if you're already bald?

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07-31-2013, 10:15 AM
  #61
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What if you're already bald?
Are you bald everywhere?

Wait... don't answer that.

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07-31-2013, 12:08 PM
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What if you're already bald?
Great question. The quick answer is then you wont go bald again...

But here is the issue. The supplement or excess amount of creatine taking over long periods of times, in which many supplement users do, show other effects. The reason you lose hair is because of an imbalance caused by the supplement. Soooo, if you think hair loss is your only problem then your missing the big picture.

Its real simple. There are healthy ways to gain the necessary amount of creatine you need daily/weekly. You do not need a synthetic version of it. And many people do not need the amount they think they need.

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07-31-2013, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JacobimMugatu View Post
Too much of pretty much anything can be a bad thing.
The recommended does is generally between 5-20g a day and the only common complaint is the increased water retention which isn't really a real issue. You'd hold a bit more water but be able to train more effectively.
Healthy kidneys are from what we know can handle the creatinine break down from that kind of creatine intake.
Sure that might change with higher doses, but honestly there isn't much reason to dose like that. I use 10g and don't think there's much point in dosing higher
Are you seriously telling me the the recommended dosage of this amino acid is ANYWHERE between 5 grams and 20 grams. What are you absurd? That is a broad range of quantity.

I heard 5 grams a day is enough and you can easily obtain what you need weekly if you need a well balanced, "healthy" diet. The package on most products say 10 grams... 1) I dont know how much I trust the producer on the amount of creatine I need. 2) FDA does not have full control on these supplement companies and they can basically tell you 20 is good and healthy.

So Idk about ten, let alone twenty!

Plus. I dont know how much I like the idea of taking something that gives you such big gains because like studies and experiences show, they show big losses when you get off them. This doesnt just go for creatine.

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07-31-2013, 01:36 PM
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Are you seriously telling me the the recommended dosage of this amino acid is ANYWHERE between 5 grams and 20 grams. What are you absurd? That is a broad range of quantity.

I heard 5 grams a day is enough and you can easily obtain what you need weekly if you need a well balanced, "healthy" diet. The package on most products say 10 grams... 1) I dont know how much I trust the producer on the amount of creatine I need. 2) FDA does not have full control on these supplement companies and they can basically tell you 20 is good and healthy.

So Idk about ten, let alone twenty!

Plus. I dont know how much I like the idea of taking something that gives you such big gains because like studies and experiences show, they show big losses when you get off them. This doesnt just go for creatine.
Yes it is a big range, that doesn't mean that it's wrong. A lot of brands have on their container about taking 5g a day. Or doing a 20g/day loading phase, tapering down to 10g and then maintaining at 5 for the majority of the time. There is no scientific evidence that suggests that cycling creatine is necessary and any good strength coach will say that the athletes they train see increased results with 10-20g a day than with 5.

Look at BCAA supplementation for example, a typical dose is 5 grams, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with having significantly more. Martin Berkhan who is essentially a nutrition god recommends up to 30 grams a day depending on the persons eating schedule. There is nothing that suggests that that kind of dosage has negative health effects.

Do you have a single shred of evidence that there's anything wrong with 10-20 grams a day? I come in with facts, you come in with how you feel about things and you call me absurd?
And generally speaking the "big losses" that people have when they come off creatine aren't big losses at all. Generally they'll lose some water weight and their lifts will take a small hit, but they would have trained more effectively through their time on it, so any losses they have will still place them above where they would have been without it.

And the idea of getting that much creatine through your diet, lol no thanks Jeff. Red meat/fish is where you'll find the highest concentration of creatine in food and it'd take eating 2+ lbs of it a day just to hit 5 grams of creatine.

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07-31-2013, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
Great question. The quick answer is then you wont go bald again...

But here is the issue. The supplement or excess amount of creatine taking over long periods of times, in which many supplement users do, show other effects. The reason you lose hair is because of an imbalance caused by the supplement. Soooo, if you think hair loss is your only problem then your missing the big picture.

Its real simple. There are healthy ways to gain the necessary amount of creatine you need daily/weekly. You do not need a synthetic version of it. And many people do not need the amount they think they need.
I started losing my hair at 26, my Dad is bald and I didn't start taking creatine til I hit 30. But, I'm glad I won't re-bald, what a relief!

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07-31-2013, 05:38 PM
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I get 250grams (5g a serving, 1 a day) for 7.99 - at that price, its worth the cost as its so cheap...

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08-01-2013, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JacobimMugatu View Post
Yes it is a big range, that doesn't mean that it's wrong. A lot of brands have on their container about taking 5g a day. Or doing a 20g/day loading phase, tapering down to 10g and then maintaining at 5 for the majority of the time. There is no scientific evidence that suggests that cycling creatine is necessary and any good strength coach will say that the athletes they train see increased results with 10-20g a day than with 5.

Look at BCAA supplementation for example, a typical dose is 5 grams, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with having significantly more. Martin Berkhan who is essentially a nutrition god recommends up to 30 grams a day depending on the persons eating schedule. There is nothing that suggests that that kind of dosage has negative health effects.

Do you have a single shred of evidence that there's anything wrong with 10-20 grams a day? I come in with facts, you come in with how you feel about things and you call me absurd?
And generally speaking the "big losses" that people have when they come off creatine aren't big losses at all. Generally they'll lose some water weight and their lifts will take a small hit, but they would have trained more effectively through their time on it, so any losses they have will still place them above where they would have been without it.

And the idea of getting that much creatine through your diet, lol no thanks Jeff. Red meat/fish is where you'll find the highest concentration of creatine in food and it'd take eating 2+ lbs of it a day just to hit 5 grams of creatine.
First off, I apologize. You are right. They do say anywhere between 5 grams and 20 grams. Yet, for them to say stuff like that does not means its right or healthy. A lot of supplements are not controlled by the FDA. They have no restrictions, for example: up to 70 calcium supplements contain lead!. And to me the risks of large intake/constant use of synthetic supplements especially creatine out weight the benefits.

I have taken creatine powder before. Its not like I get down on myself for doing it. I really dont care. But I try to avoid mostly. I try to avoid most supplements. If I take a supplement I try to make it plant based, same with protein or maybe whey. But I rarely do any of these and stick to a natural diet.

1lb of beef has about 5 grams of creatine
1lb of salmon has about 4.5 grams of creatine
1lb of red meat has 2grams of creatine

I wouldnt recommend having salmon everyday, or red meat or beef everyday. But have it once or twice a week.

But did you know that a pound of chicken also contains the same amount of creatine in beef and rabbit meat. I love white meat such as chicken. I can easily have a pound in a day. Easy.

Chicken also happens to have a few extra amino acids that help your body NATURALLY produce creatine. WOW. Did you know that?

I didnt until now.
http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/crea...cken-1136.html

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08-01-2013, 12:51 PM
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I started losing my hair at 26, my Dad is bald and I didn't start taking creatine til I hit 30. But, I'm glad I won't re-bald, what a relief!
You act as though I am saying Creatine is the only thing that causes baldness.

And you act as though baldness is the only issue at hand when taking creatine. There are issues that I have done my research on. You believe what you like, I will do the same.

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08-01-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
You act as though I am saying Creatine is the only thing that causes baldness.

And you act as though baldness is the only issue at hand when taking creatine. There are issues that I have done my research on. You believe what you like, I will do the same.
No, I'm insinuating through sarcasm that you don't know what you're talking about. I'm 40 years old and I have never heard somebody say you might re-bald no matter what you're taking or that you risk losing body hair. Male pattern baldness is pretty easy to understand. You're saying that taking creatine, an other the counter supplement is very dangerous and we're asking for facts. Why does the FDA allow it to be sold to anybody if it's a proven fact something bad will happen if you take it? Does red meat not have harmful chemicals in it like hormones among other things? Is eating a regular diet of red meat healthy? Does fish not contain mercury? If you eat fish regularly are there not health risks associated with that? Your argument that creatine WILL harm you is making my hair fall out-again.

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08-01-2013, 01:58 PM
  #70
newfr4u
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
You act as though I am saying Creatine is the only thing that causes baldness.

And you act as though baldness is the only issue at hand when taking creatine. There are issues that I have done my research on. You believe what you like, I will do the same.
this is so LOL. that's exactly what you are saying according to one study, ignoring hundreds of studies of upto 5-year duration that showed creatine to be completely safe. http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=5600724 at best, there is a creatine-DHT link to be further studied, nothing more.

first of all, "synthetic" creatine is equivalent to natural creatine. there is literally no chemical difference between the two, once it dissolves in water (in case of creatine monohydrate). if you are worried whether the supplier is putting lead into its powder, buy a brand that has been tested by the FDA. problem solved.

secondly, you claim 1lb of beef or salmon contain upto 5g of creatine, whereas your own citation is saying it's 5g per 1kg AND it states cooking the meat reduces it's bioavailability. good luck eating that much. furthermore, the two sources for that are medical textbooks from 2001 and 2008. you can be sure that the research those are citing is superficial and outdated at best. there's so much variation in the beef and chicken that you eat on the micronutrient level, that you can't possibly conclude that chicken is better.

finally, you bring up one study where 20 rugby players were put on a creatine load/maintain phase for three weeks. that itself is not enough. it's a very small, narrowly selected group, with no mentioned control for weightlifting/exercise/calorie/age/gender/etc. what if these are just college students who happen to play rugby once a week? what if they don't track their calories or macros? what if they are doing your standard BS at the gym without actually building any muscle?

DHT spikes of several weeks at a time are not unusual. you can get on a heavy lifting program in the offseason trying to add 50 lbs to your squat, and your DHT/T levels would go up. you go off the lifting program in season, stop lifting, your DHT/T levels will drop. it's meaningless to look at DHT:T ratio without such context.

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08-02-2013, 10:17 AM
  #71
Thesensation19
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
No, I'm insinuating through sarcasm that you don't know what you're talking about. I'm 40 years old and I have never heard somebody say you might re-bald no matter what you're taking or that you risk losing body hair. Male pattern baldness is pretty easy to understand. You're saying that taking creatine, an other the counter supplement is very dangerous and we're asking for facts. Why does the FDA allow it to be sold to anybody if it's a proven fact something bad will happen if you take it? Does red meat not have harmful chemicals in it like hormones among other things? Is eating a regular diet of red meat healthy? Does fish not contain mercury? If you eat fish regularly are there not health risks associated with that? Your argument that creatine WILL harm you is making my hair fall out-again.
WHEN DID I EVER SAY YOU WILL RE-BALD and THAT YOU LOSE BODY HAIR?!?

All I said was that constant use of creatine MAYYYYY lead to baldness. And this is true. Studies show this and science backs it up.

I even replied to your last post saying that if you are already bald, then you will not go BALD AGAIN...

I said that the baldness is not the only underlying issue at hand!


In fact, I was just talking to somebody about this and they said a close relative of theirs died from a heart attack recently. I believe he was in his fortys... coincidence that its the same age as you. And that the doctors have said his constant use of creatine led him to have clog arteries and thus heart attack which lead to his early death.

And once again, I will repeat. A heart attack, and baldness... may not be the same symptoms for you! But it may happen. And there are OTHER issues for constant SYNTHETIC creatine supplementation. Your body can only take so much of it and constant use leads to many minor and major health issues

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08-02-2013, 10:35 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
this is so LOL. that's exactly what you are saying according to one study, ignoring hundreds of studies of upto 5-year duration that showed creatine to be completely safe. http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=5600724 at best, there is a creatine-DHT link to be further studied, nothing more.

first of all, "synthetic" creatine is equivalent to natural creatine. there is literally no chemical difference between the two, once it dissolves in water (in case of creatine monohydrate). if you are worried whether the supplier is putting lead into its powder, buy a brand that has been tested by the FDA. problem solved.

secondly, you claim 1lb of beef or salmon contain upto 5g of creatine, whereas your own citation is saying it's 5g per 1kg AND it states cooking the meat reduces it's bioavailability. good luck eating that much. furthermore, the two sources for that are medical textbooks from 2001 and 2008. you can be sure that the research those are citing is superficial and outdated at best. there's so much variation in the beef and chicken that you eat on the micronutrient level, that you can't possibly conclude that chicken is better.

finally, you bring up one study where 20 rugby players were put on a creatine load/maintain phase for three weeks. that itself is not enough. it's a very small, narrowly selected group, with no mentioned control for weightlifting/exercise/calorie/age/gender/etc. what if these are just college students who happen to play rugby once a week? what if they don't track their calories or macros? what if they are doing your standard BS at the gym without actually building any muscle?

DHT spikes of several weeks at a time are not unusual. you can get on a heavy lifting program in the offseason trying to add 50 lbs to your squat, and your DHT/T levels would go up. you go off the lifting program in season, stop lifting, your DHT/T levels will drop. it's meaningless to look at DHT:T ratio without such context.

No that is not EXACTLY what I was saying.
When one person here claimed that taking creatine led to hair loss, I looked it up. And I brought to you ONE study that claimed this to be true. So I backed up one personal experience somebody had here, that all of you claimed to be IMPOSSIBLE, and I showed you ONE study of MANY that show how it is possible and the results that followed in that ONE study.

What did you want me to do? Reference every single study of creatine that shows its harmful side effects? And my problem is solved when the FDA says its okay? HA! Good luck with that. The FDA has its issues too. Every medication prescribed out there by doctors is FDA approved, and yet medical side effects range from constipation to dehydration to CANCER to Blindness to short term memory loss. I was just prescribed medication for acne I had... Medical container or doctor didnt tell me about the more severe side effects. Once I looked up I saw side effects can cause short term memory loss upon dozens of other things.

Now obviously taking protein shake or a synthetic supplement will not all of a sudden cause you to lose your memory or whatever else I stated but lets be real... you implement this into your diet on a daily basis and your going to see benefits and what you might not see until later on, depending the amount and overall health and genetics, will be side effects that I have stated way too many times.

If you dont believe in it, so be it. I prefer the natural route and add in supplements once in a while.


My citation was talking about chicken. And how chicken was comparable to beef and rabbit meat.
Others on here have shown other citations for beef 1lb! to be 5grams of creatine.

And your very well right on the research and the concerns. All of those can be true. But I assume it to be a well set up study. But then you can say that about any study. So then what do we believe?

I believe personal experience. And I will stick to the more natural route for the most part. A much healthier lifestyle especially in the LONG run. If I cant gain 50lbs on my squats by myself... then so be it. But guess what. Through intense workouts, healthy diet and patience and repetition I am able to always create challenges that I succeed at sooner or later. I get stronger, and faster and tougher without the need for supplements on a daily basis. I guarantee you I will be a healthier me at the age of 40 or 50 and beyond because of my routines and my diet

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08-02-2013, 10:46 AM
  #73
Thesensation19
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Forget studies, look at others experiences online.

I have found dozens of people on different forums talking about hair thinning and hair loss. Obviously if your BALD, you wont RE BALD. Some will not bald and claim its impossible because it doesnt happen to them. Others have hair thinning upon immediate use. Others notice some hair loss in a year. Others take it for years and then finally notice. Everyones different. But why even attempt it? To gain 50lbs on your squat, so that when your on it? Why not just work out intense and then let your body naturally grow and get stronger.

When you get off of the creatine you lose that mass, you lose that strength. So whats the point?

Hair issues is not the only side effect.

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08-02-2013, 11:57 AM
  #74
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And buying an FDA approved supplement is not a problem that is solved.

Everyday there are new issues at hand from FDA approved products. Diet Soda for instance. Cigarettes. Medications.

No study can pinpoint any of the bad side-effects on any one product. You can make a case for several other factors at play. But it comes down to your belief.

I believe I have seen nothing but issues at the hands of many FDA approved products. Man made products like the chemicals and artificial ingredients cause more issues than you might ever realize.

I say, be as natural as you can be. If you dont believe in that, and you want to argue that there is nothing wrong with the things mentioned above or things like it... then go ahead. but i said my peace with this subject.

Its fine if you want to dabble in it. Just be careful and be aware of others experiences.

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Old
08-02-2013, 08:14 PM
  #75
SkateThroughIt
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Why is everyone saying proper nutrition > creatine? The last time I checked creatine is supposed to be taken if you want more after proper nutrition. I won't deny you need to eat well and that creatine does not replace a good diet.

The last time I checked aspirin is man-made...are you saying aspirin is bad too? I only take 5g a day and it helps a lot. If the only side affect is a small percentage of people are saying they are taking hair loss, I can live with that.

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