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Old
07-31-2013, 12:15 PM
  #676
BernieParent
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FWIW, since I said I'd post the goaltending review from games 4-6 during the Beef-DFF groin-kicking, I don't want anyone to say I'm not a man of his word:

GAME 4
Highlight saves
Niemi 3
Leighton 3
Goal 1 (Flyers leading 2-0)
• “A blast from 55 feet” by Sharp to Leighton’s glove side. Not a good goal to give up.
Goal 2 (Flyers leading 4-1)
• 5-on-3 slap pass to Bolland at the far post. No chance for Leighton.
Goal 3 (Flyers leading 4-2)
• An odd goal where a pass on the rush hit Timonen’s stick, fluttered through him and trickled into the short side. Bad luck and a bit of bad positioning by Leighton.

GAME 5
Highlight saves
Niemi 5, including a no-look slide to rob Richards
Leighton 3
Boucher 3
Goal 1 (tied 0-0)
• Scramble leads to a wrist shot from the faceoff circle. Leighton looked slow to react.
Goal 2 (Hawks leading 1-0)
• Leighton made the initial save and the puck caromed off the back boards. Bolland (behind the goal line) shot off Leighton’s skate as Leighton was moving across the crease. Mostly bad positioning, but also bad luck.
Goal 3 (Hawks leading 2-0)
• Versteeg carried the puck into the high slot and shot a wrister past Leighton. No movement other than to go down to his knees.
BOUCHER IN FOR LEIGHTON (Leighton stopped 10 of 13 shots)
Goal 4 (Hawks leading 3-1)
• 2-on-1; Ladd shot attempt blocked by Pronger, back to Ladd, who passed onto Kane’s stick. Wide open net. Not Boucher’s fault.
Goal 5 (Hawks leading 4-2)
• PP one timer from 3’ outside the crease. No chance for Boucher.
Goal 6 (Hawks leading 5-3)
• 3-on-1, Sharp wrister from the slot. Boucher didn’t move but it would have taken an amazing save to stop.
Goal 7 (Hawks leading 6-4)
• Empty net

GAME 6
Highlight saves
Niemi 2
Leighton 3
Goal 1 (tied 0-0)
• PP; one-timer across the crease. No chance for Leighton.
Goal 2 (Flyers leading 2-1)
• 4-on-4, Sharp shot from bottom of faceoff circle. Leighton did the block-of-wood slide on knees with arms down at the ice and looked poor.
Goal 3 (tied 2-2)
• Point shot was deflected; no chance for Leighton.
Goal 4 (OT)
• Nuff said.

Now, let's get back onto other matters, shall we?

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07-31-2013, 01:55 PM
  #677
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Now let's never talk about Leighton again.

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07-31-2013, 02:29 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Now let's never talk about Leighton again.
I want to shove Leighton and Bryzgalov in a box and leave it in the corner of the Flyers attic, never to discuss it again.

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07-31-2013, 02:52 PM
  #679
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I don't want to start the whole thing back up again (even though I know it will happen when I type this), but at least some of the people arguing with me about how Leighton is blame for the Cup loss in 2010 are the same people that will tell you that Leighton doesn't deserve the credit for the three shutouts that were recorded in the ECF. So intranslation: all the blame when the team loses, none of the credit when the team wins. Don't have to say he was the reason the team won those games or the reason they got to the Finals, because he certainly wasn't carrying the team, but getting three shutouts in the ECF deserves credit no matter how good your defense was (see: all the teams with better defenses or similar defenses to the Flyers who didn't get three shutouts in the Conference finals over the past however many decades you want to go back).

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07-31-2013, 02:55 PM
  #680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't want to start the whole thing back up again (even though I know it will happen when I type this), but at least some of the people arguing with me about how Leighton is blame for the Cup loss in 2010 are the same people that will tell you that Leighton doesn't deserve the credit for the three shutouts that were recorded in the ECF. So intranslation: all the blame when the team loses, none of the credit when the team wins. Don't have to say he was the reason the team won those games or the reason they got to the Finals, because he certainly wasn't carrying the team, but getting three shutouts in the ECF deserves credit no matter how good your defense was (see: all the teams with better defenses or similar defenses to the Flyers who didn't get three shutouts in the Conference finals over the past however many decades you want to go back).
Just wanted to point out that Montreal was on its own unlikely run. That was a favorable matchup for the Flyers. Not trying to say this hasn't happened the last decade or that Leighton doesn't deserve some credit for those shutouts. My point is its just not the same.

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07-31-2013, 02:57 PM
  #681
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What happened to Leighton the one time the Flyers' D wasn't utterly dominant against the undersized Montreal team? Those three shutouts were a testament to how good that team was defensively and how badly they manhandled Montreal. It wasn't incredible goaltending on The Slob's part, it was incredible defense. Hell, there's a reason only one "highlight" save was produced by Leighton in that series....on a shot going wide anyways.

When they met a similarly deep offense that was able to get good chances on Leighton in the Finals he was exposed and destroyed.

I don't know why you still don't get how those things are mutually exclusive somehow.

And for the millionth time, not all shutouts are created equal.

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07-31-2013, 02:59 PM
  #682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Just wanted to point out that Montreal was on its own unlikely run. That was a favorable matchup for the Flyers. Not trying to say this hasn't happened the last decade or that Leighton doesn't deserve some credit for those shutouts. My point is its just not the same.
While it may not be the same, I don't think it matters who the opponent is or how good your defense is, three shutouts in the Conference Finals is a rare and impressive feat. Three shutouts in any playoff series is a rare and impressive feat. The best goalies in the league don't accomplish this.

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07-31-2013, 03:01 PM
  #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
While it may not be the same, I don't think it matters who the opponent is or how good your defense is, three shutouts in the Conference Finals is a rare and impressive feat. Three shutouts in any playoff series is a rare and impressive feat. The best goalies in the league don't accomplish this.
If the best goalies in the league were playing behind a beastly defense against an undersized offense getting constantly owned by said defense, they could.

Edit: I haven't seen a playoff team get as badly outplayed as Montreal did before or since that series. It was absurdly one sided.

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07-31-2013, 03:04 PM
  #684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
What happened to Leighton the one time the Flyers' D wasn't utterly dominant against the undersized Montreal team? Those three shutouts were a testament to how good that team was defensively and how badly they manhandled Montreal. It wasn't incredible goaltending on The Slob's part, it was incredible defense. Hell, there's a reason only one "highlight" save was produced by Leighton in that series....on a shot going wide anyways.

When they met a similarly deep offense that was able to get good chances on Leighton in the Finals he was exposed and destroyed.

I don't know why you still don't get how those things are mutually exclusive somehow.
But again, you can't just ignore the fact that Leighton recorded three shutouts. You can certainly say it helped, which it did, but you don't just magically get three shutouts because the defense was good. If you did, this would happen more often because there are better defenses than the Flyers and better goalies than Leighton, but it doesn't happen often. Henrik Lundqvist is a far better goalie. Jon Quick is a far better goalie. Tim Thomas is a far better goalie. Tuuka Rask is a far better goalie. While their defenses may or may not have been as good as the Flyers were in 2010, none of them have ever recorded three shutouts in a playoff series.

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07-31-2013, 03:05 PM
  #685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But again, you can't just ignore the fact that Leighton recorded three shutouts. You can certainly say it helped, which it did, but you don't just magically get three shutouts because the defense was good. If you did, this would happen more often because there are better defenses than the Flyers and better goalies than Leighton, but it doesn't happen often. Henrik Lundqvist is a far better goalie. Jon Quick is a far better goalie. Tim Thomas is a far better goalie. Tuuka Rask is a far better goalie. While their defenses may or may not have been as good as the Flyers were in 2010, none of them have ever recorded three shutouts in a playoff series.
The only thing Leighton did was show up and ride his team to success.

If Thomas, Lundqvist, or Quick were playing in Leighton's spot I have zero doubt they would have done better.

That series started a debate around these forums about the idea of constructing a team so deep you could plug anyone in net. People were postulating that big-name goalies could be made obsolete. That wasn't due to Leighton's play, that was due to the skaters'.

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07-31-2013, 03:11 PM
  #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But again, you can't just ignore the fact that Leighton recorded three shutouts. You can certainly say it helped, which it did, but you don't just magically get three shutouts because the defense was good. If you did, this would happen more often because there are better defenses than the Flyers and better goalies than Leighton, but it doesn't happen often. Henrik Lundqvist is a far better goalie. Jon Quick is a far better goalie. Tim Thomas is a far better goalie. Tuuka Rask is a far better goalie. While their defenses may or may not have been as good as the Flyers were in 2010, none of them have ever recorded three shutouts in a playoff series.
None of them faced the 2010 Canandiens either.... As I said I think he deserves some credit just not as much as you're giving him.

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07-31-2013, 03:14 PM
  #687
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You know that diagram I made? The same can be applied here. Except make the top of the pyramid MFL and make the bottom The Skaters.

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07-31-2013, 03:19 PM
  #688
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The only thing Leighton did was show up and ride his team to success.

If Thomas, Lundqvist, or Quick were playing in Leighton's spot I have zero doubt they would have done better.

That series started a debate around these forums about the idea of constructing a team so deep you could plug anyone in net. People were postulating that big-name goalies could be made obsolete. That wasn't due to Leighton's play, that was due to the skaters'.
Yep, nailed it.


Leighton faced very few (and by "very few", I mean almost none) chances that could be considered 'game savers'. He made routine saves because the defense totally strangled the Habs that series.

Leighton did what should have been expected of any goaltender in his position that series. The Habs were 1) not that good to begin with and 2) totally drained and beaten from battles with WSH and PIT in the rounds before.

I'll give him credit for making saves he should have made, but that is all.

DFF, you would have had a better argument referencing Leighton's performance in the Bruins series after Boucher went down. He actually had a couple of big moments in that one.

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07-31-2013, 03:22 PM
  #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
None of them faced the 2010 Canandiens either.... As I said I think he deserves some credit just not as much as you're giving him.
I don't think I'm trying to give him any more credit than he deserves. He had three shutouts in the ECF. That deserves a lot of credit, even if the defense was great and even if the other team sucked. For instance, the Blackhawks this year had a pretty good defense. They faced the Minnesota Wild, a team that ranked 23rd in goals for this season (the same as Montreal in 2010). Now, maybe Chicago's defense wasn't as good as the Flyers in 2010, but they were still pretty good (ranked #1 in goals against). Corey Crawford, a better goalie than Michael Leighton, did not record three shutouts that series.

I'm not saying that Michael Leighton is better than Corey Crawford. I'm not saying Michael Leighton did it all himself. But it is 100% not something that you just write off and act like he had nothing to do with. He deserves a good amount of credit for recording three shutouts that series. Even on a good night for the best goalies in the world on the best teams in the world, pucks get in the net.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You know that diagram I made? The same can be applied here. Except make the top of the pyramid MFL and make the bottom The Skaters.
Ok.

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07-31-2013, 03:36 PM
  #690
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Michael Leighton had a .916 overall save percentage in the playoffs. .896 in Boston and Chicago, and .950 in Montreal. That's a significant improvement when his team met someone they could utterly strangle. The equivalent for Quick or Thomas would be approximately .980, at minimum. Considering both those goalies were/are capable of singlehandedly dragging their team to a win (Leighton never could), it's not unreasonable to think the Flyer sweep or have 4 shutouts with either of those two.

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07-31-2013, 03:37 PM
  #691
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It was comical how bad Montreal was destroyed in that series. It was a real pleasure to watch

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07-31-2013, 03:40 PM
  #692
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It was comical how bad Montreal was destroyed in that series. It was a real pleasure to watch
Could be the most fun I've ever had watching a series. There was zero stress once it became clear what the deal was. Well, as close as you can get to "zero stress" when your team doesn't really have a goalie.

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07-31-2013, 03:48 PM
  #693
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It was comical how bad Montreal was destroyed in that series. It was a real pleasure to watch
Wasn't that the series where there were reports that sand was thrown on the mat from the Flyer's bench to the locker room?

Montreal didn't have an answer to the Flyers. They simply could not get a decent shot on the net and resorted to petty crap like messing with skates.

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07-31-2013, 04:37 PM
  #694
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Man, taking a look around at some rosters in the NHL, Nashville is going to be right at the bottom of the scoring barrel again it seems. That offense just looks dreadful. Of course New Jersey will give them some competition at the bottom, it will be a fun race to see who score the least amount of goals.

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07-31-2013, 05:15 PM
  #695
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Man, taking a look around at some rosters in the NHL, Nashville is going to be right at the bottom of the scoring barrel again it seems. That offense just looks dreadful. Of course New Jersey will give them some competition at the bottom, it will be a fun race to see who score the least amount of goals.
It's funny watching Devils fans try to pass off that brutal forward lineup as "great depth!!!"

Just because you have a bunch of extra grinders doesn't mean you have depth. They're relying on Elias more than we rely on Timonen.

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07-31-2013, 05:21 PM
  #696
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Yeah that NJ team is looking like they could have their own Season That Shall Not Be Named.

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07-31-2013, 05:26 PM
  #697
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah that NJ team is looking like they could have their own Season That Shall Not Be Named.
And it will be so satisfying watching their forfeited lottery pick go to waste.

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07-31-2013, 05:30 PM
  #698
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It's funny watching Devils fans try to pass off that brutal forward lineup as "great depth!!!"

Just because you have a bunch of extra grinders doesn't mean you have depth. They're relying on Elias more than we rely on Timonen.
The NHL's version of the Phillies slow, old, & worn down with not much of a future.

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07-31-2013, 06:49 PM
  #699
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Man, taking a look around at some rosters in the NHL, Nashville is going to be right at the bottom of the scoring barrel again it seems. That offense just looks dreadful. Of course New Jersey will give them some competition at the bottom, it will be a fun race to see who score the least amount of goals.
NJ looks bad on paper, but I've learned the hard way not to count them out. Calgary should be competing for first (pick) overall, and I don't see Florida excelling in their new, more competitive division. Things should be interesting in Vancouver, with Tortorella giving the Sedins lessons in shot-blocking. TSN's That's Hockey actually projected that defenseman Yannick Weber (ex-healthy scratch for the Canadiens) on the top pairing with Alex Edler. I don't believe them, but ...

Anyway, this will be an interesting season for so many reasons.

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07-31-2013, 07:49 PM
  #700
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NJ looks bad on paper, but I've learned the hard way not to count them out. Calgary should be competing for first (pick) overall, and I don't see Florida excelling in their new, more competitive division. Things should be interesting in Vancouver, with Tortorella giving the Sedins lessons in shot-blocking. TSN's That's Hockey actually projected that defenseman Yannick Weber (ex-healthy scratch for the Canadiens) on the top pairing with Alex Edler. I don't believe them, but ...

Anyway, this will be an interesting season for so many reasons.
I could see both Florida teams getting beat up in that new division next year from a score standpoint & a physical standpoint. Them two & Detriot (although Detriot has some good established talent) didn't really do much to match up from a physical standpoint to the other teams in that division. A lot of those teams are big, tough, & skilled now thanks to Boston steamrolling that division for the last couple of years in the scoring & fighting/physical department.

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