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Old
08-01-2013, 03:12 PM
  #176
BumFortyOne
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I know Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis is likely set in stone, but I think it would be interesting to try Jokinen at LW and reunite Kunitz with Malkin and Neal. I'm assuming here that Bennett will be on the third line, which honestly might not be terrible since he won't have as much pressure to produce in that role.

I think that Kunitz (or a player like him) is vital to Malkin and Neal reaching their full potential so I would like to see that line back together.

Jokinen obviously doesn't play at the pace that Crosby and Dupuis do but he brings some skill and creativity to that line that would otherwise be somewhat lacking. Thoughts?

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08-01-2013, 03:28 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by BumFortyOne View Post
I know Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis is likely set in stone, but I think it would be interesting to try Jokinen at LW and reunite Kunitz with Malkin and Neal. I'm assuming here that Bennett will be on the third line, which honestly might not be terrible since he won't have as much pressure to produce in that role.

I think that Kunitz (or a player like him) is vital to Malkin and Neal reaching their full potential so I would like to see that line back together.

Jokinen obviously doesn't play at the pace that Crosby and Dupuis do but he brings some skill and creativity to that line that would otherwise be somewhat lacking. Thoughts?
I just hope we try several options until we find what works best. I don't want anything set in stone.

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08-01-2013, 03:34 PM
  #178
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I'm not fond of the idea of a Jokinen-Crosby-Dupuis line. I absolutely want KCD broken up, but I think if Jokinen is in the top six he'd add more value and be a better fit on Malkin's line.

Really the only options for the top six I like are

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal

or

Dupuis-Crosby-Bennett
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

but as Ogre said, I think multiple options should be explored.

Edit: I wouldn't even be opposed to trying Dupuis with Malkin and Neal

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08-01-2013, 03:39 PM
  #179
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08-01-2013, 03:41 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
I'm not fond of the idea of a Jokinen-Crosby-Dupuis line. I absolutely want KCD broken up, but I think if Jokinen is in the top six he'd add more value and be a better fit on Malkin's line.

Really the only options for the top six I like are

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal

or

Dupuis-Crosby-Bennett
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

but as Ogre said, I think multiple options should be explored.
I agree that Jokinen would add more value to Malkin than Sid, but I wonder if Kunitz' value to Malkin would be greater than the drop of Kunitz to Jokinen for Sid (that was probably hard to follow). I guess my point is, which of these 2 top 6's is better:

Option 1:
Kunitz-Sid-Duper
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal

Option2:
Jokinen-Sid-Duper
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

I honestly don't know the answer but it would be interesting to try. That said, I'd rather have Bennett with Sid than Jokinen there so this is all hypothetical.

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08-01-2013, 03:53 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I agree that Jokinen would add more value to Malkin than Sid, but I wonder if Kunitz' value to Malkin would be greater than the drop of Kunitz to Jokinen for Sid (that was probably hard to follow). I guess my point is, which of these 2 top 6's is better:

Option 1:
Kunitz-Sid-Duper
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal

Option2:
Jokinen-Sid-Duper
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

I honestly don't know the answer but it would be interesting to try. That said, I'd rather have Bennett with Sid than Jokinen there so this is all hypothetical.
That wasn't hard to follow at all, I get what you're saying.

I don't know the answer either. I always felt that if someone on Sid's line was going to have considerably less speed than him, I wanted that person to be a shooter.

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08-01-2013, 04:00 PM
  #182
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Dupuis-Sid-Beau
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Jokinen-Sutter-Kulemin

That would be ideal. I don't care if you're sick of hearing about Kulemin. The guy is exactly what we could use this season. PK replacement for Cooke. Can play either wing and with any center.

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08-01-2013, 04:08 PM
  #183
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Dupuis does what Kunitz does pretty much. If we want to give Geno that element without hurting Sid's line as much, move Dupuis instead.

Kunitz - Sid - Jokinen/Bennett
Dupuis - Geno - Neal

Ya, Dupuis and Geno didn't have chemistry 3 or 4 years ago. But Dupuis was a much worse hockey player 3 or 4 years ago. And James Neal wasn't on the other side.

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08-01-2013, 04:20 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Dupuis-Sid-Beau
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Jokinen-Sutter-Kulemin

That would be ideal. I don't care if you're sick of hearing about Kulemin. The guy is exactly what we could use this season. PK replacement for Cooke. Can play either wing and with any center.
And we get him... how?

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08-01-2013, 04:21 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Tasty Biscuits View Post
And we get him... how?
A deal involving Orpik seems like the only way we could make that work.

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08-01-2013, 04:23 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Dupuis does what Kunitz does pretty much. If we want to give Geno that element without hurting Sid's line as much, move Dupuis instead.

Kunitz - Sid - Jokinen/Bennett
Dupuis - Geno - Neal

Ya, Dupuis and Geno didn't have chemistry 3 or 4 years ago. But Dupuis was a much worse hockey player 3 or 4 years ago. And James Neal wasn't on the other side.
I'd try it. Dupuis and Kunitz are essentially the same player except Kunitz is better offensively.

I think we talked about this before, but Dupuis would have a very simple job; play defense and get Geno the puck. That's all Geno really wants from his LW anyways.

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08-01-2013, 04:31 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
I'd try it. Dupuis and Kunitz are essentially the same player except Kunitz is better offensively.

I think we talked about this before, but Dupuis would have a very simple job; play defense and get Geno the puck. That's all Geno really wants from his LW anyways.
Exactly. Dupuis is a solid 3rd wheel in the top 6 but a sub-par number 2. Kunitz is a great 3rd wheel or a solid number 2. As good as Kunitz - Malkin - Neal is, I think Kunitz is almost wasting some of his talent in that spot. Let Dupuis and Jokinen be our 3rd wheels.

I hope we use the first half of the season to experiment with different combinations for 5 to 10 games at a time. Including Bennett, who could change all of this if he really does as well as some of us think he can.

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08-01-2013, 04:44 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Exactly. Dupuis is a solid 3rd wheel in the top 6 but a sub-par number 2. Kunitz is a great 3rd wheel or a solid number 2. As good as Kunitz - Malkin - Neal is, I think Kunitz is almost wasting some of his talent in that spot. Let Dupuis and Jokinen be our 3rd wheels.

I hope we use the first half of the season to experiment with different combinations for 5 to 10 games at a time. Including Bennett, who could change all of this if he really does as well as some of us think he can.
I agree. The lockout took away our ability to experiment last year. KCD was working out together for a long time, and that familiarity was an advantage no one else in the league had. With a shortened training camp, it made sense to keep them together and just try out different players on Malkin's LW.

But this year, with a full training camp, I will be extremely disappointed if other combinations aren't tried. And lots of them.

I keep saying it, but I think Bennett is the perfect fit for Crosby's wing. He does all the little things that Kunitz/Dupuis do, he has decent speed, his vision is outstanding, and if he has regained the strength in his wrist, his shot could be dangerous as well. But even if he hasn't he'll still be able to beat goalies with creativity. I think he could grow more alongside Sid than Geno simply because of what Geno wants in his LW.

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08-01-2013, 05:38 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
A deal involving Orpik seems like the only way we could make that work.
Any D-man we deem expendable mid-season that would be an upgrade for the Leafs is fine by me.

But I doubt we're moving him. Even if Shero is as high on Kulemin as I think he is.

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08-02-2013, 12:58 AM
  #190
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I agree that if Bennett outplays Jokinen or whoever else in the top-six then he should be there. But at the same time, Jokinen probably provides the most value when put in a scoring line role. And it probably wouldn't hurt if Bennett didn't have as much pressure to produce right away by staying on the third line with Sutter.

I like Jokinen with Crosby over with Malkin and Neal for a few reasons. The biggest to me is that Malkin and Neal need someone on their line to do the dirty work, whether that be Kunitz or Dupuis. I figured that in this instance Kunitz is the logical choice sine that trio has already been proven to work.

Another reason is that, as many have said, Kunitz and Dupuis are pretty similar players and I think it might benefit Crosby to have a little more creativity on his line. I would like to see Bennett tried there for the same reason.

It would also be interesting to have Jokinen on Crosby's wing for faceoff situations. Crosby could afford to be extremely aggressive on faceoffs without worrying about being kicked out since he would have Jokinen backing him up. Though obviously one could say that Jokinen's faceoff prowess is an argument for having him play with Malkin.

Basically, I think Malkin and Neal need Kunitz, or potentially Dupuis, to be truly dominant. There would obviously be a dropoff for Crosby's line but it may not be too severe. In light of Ogrezilla's comments about trying Dupuis out in that role, I would probably like to see

Jokinen-Crosby-Kunitz
Dupuis-Malkin-Neal

Though I pretty sincerely doubt anything of the sort will be tried.

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08-02-2013, 07:16 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by BumFortyOne View Post
I agree that if Bennett outplays Jokinen or whoever else in the top-six then he should be there. But at the same time, Jokinen probably provides the most value when put in a scoring line role. And it probably wouldn't hurt if Bennett didn't have as much pressure to produce right away by staying on the third line with Sutter.
I'm not convinced that our 3rd line will be our shutdown line considering the wings we have in the bottom 6. I think it could very well become a depth scoring line with the KCD line becoming our matchup line. With Jokinen on the 3rd line, I think that would help. Also, I don't know that Bennett would have more pressure with Geno than the third line. On the third line he will be expected to be the guy that drives the offense. With Geno and Neal, his role would be significantly simplified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BumFortyOne View Post
I like Jokinen with Crosby over with Malkin and Neal for a few reasons. The biggest to me is that Malkin and Neal need someone on their line to do the dirty work, whether that be Kunitz or Dupuis. I figured that in this instance Kunitz is the logical choice sine that trio has already been proven to work.

Another reason is that, as many have said, Kunitz and Dupuis are pretty similar players and I think it might benefit Crosby to have a little more creativity on his line. I would like to see Bennett tried there for the same reason.

It would also be interesting to have Jokinen on Crosby's wing for faceoff situations. Crosby could afford to be extremely aggressive on faceoffs without worrying about being kicked out since he would have Jokinen backing him up. Though obviously one could say that Jokinen's faceoff prowess is an argument for having him play with Malkin.

Basically, I think Malkin and Neal need Kunitz, or potentially Dupuis, to be truly dominant. There would obviously be a dropoff for Crosby's line but it may not be too severe. In light of Ogrezilla's comments about trying Dupuis out in that role, I would probably like to see

Jokinen-Crosby-Kunitz
Dupuis-Malkin-Neal

Though I pretty sincerely doubt anything of the sort will be tried.
I like your outcome here. I really just don't want Jokinen and Dupuis together as I think they are the 3rd and 4th (or 5th) best wings we have. I'd rather balance them a little bit. Admittedly, Jussi and Dupuis looked really good together for those few games last year, so it might be worth a shot. I forgot about that until just now typing this out.

Sadly, I too doubt that we see many experiments that don't include KCD. I hope we experiment with how the lines are deployed at least, if that is the case.

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08-02-2013, 08:50 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I'm not convinced that our 3rd line will be our shutdown line considering the wings we have in the bottom 6. I think it could very well become a depth scoring line with the KCD line becoming our matchup line. With Jokinen on the 3rd line, I think that would help. Also, I don't know that Bennett would have more pressure with Geno than the third line. On the third line he will be expected to be the guy that drives the offense. With Geno and Neal, his role would be significantly simplified.



I like your outcome here. I really just don't want Jokinen and Dupuis together as I think they are the 3rd and 4th (or 5th) best wings we have. I'd rather balance them a little bit. Admittedly, Jussi and Dupuis looked really good together for those few games last year, so it might be worth a shot. I forgot about that until just now typing this out.

Sadly, I too doubt that we see many experiments that don't include KCD. I hope we experiment with how the lines are deployed at least, if that is the case.
I agree with the idea that KCD should be the matchup line over the Sutter line. Or it should at least be experimented with. They should be able to dominate time of possession against most lines they'd go up against. As you said, then the Sutter line would be a sort of pseudo scoring line with Bennett/Jokinen and Jeffrey/D'agostini as the wings on that line.

I get what you're saying about wanting to spread out the talent more evenly between Crosby and Malkin's lines. I do also agree that Kunitz does have enough skill that it may be somewhat wasted playing the third wheel to Malkin and Neal.

One concern is that Kunitz has played primarily LW, and from what I understand Jokinen usually also plays LW when he's on the wing. And then since he's been here, Dupuis has mostly played RW and especially since he's gotten so much better. In theory each can play either wing but it would be something to keep in mind.

Who knows, really. I feel like we on this board obsess over the lines more than probably any other teams fans.

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08-02-2013, 09:50 AM
  #193
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I'm almost positive the season starts with:

Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis
Bennett - Malkin - Neal

Jussi will be on the third with Sutter + ?

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08-02-2013, 10:53 AM
  #194
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Assuming Duper works with Geno - Neal, I would roll with:

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Duper-Malkin-Neal
Jokinen-Sutter-D'ags
Glass/Jeffrey-Vitale-Adams

That actually is a hell of a top 9 if it all works out. It may be a little soft, but each line has a speedster, a guy with playmaking ability, an elite defensive forward, and scoring touch. The 4th line could use an upgrade in size/phyisicality/fighting ability (there happy?) and we would be all set.

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08-02-2013, 12:00 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I'm not convinced that our 3rd line will be our shutdown line considering the wings we have in the bottom 6. I think it could very well become a depth scoring line with the KCD line becoming our matchup line. With Jokinen on the 3rd line, I think that would help. Also, I don't know that Bennett would have more pressure with Geno than the third line. On the third line he will be expected to be the guy that drives the offense. With Geno and Neal, his role would be significantly simplified.
See, this is why I don't want Bennett with Malkin and Neal. I don't want him to have to simplify his game and just fill in the 'play defense and get Geno the puck' role.

You said you thought in a way that Kunitz was wasting some of his talent on that line, but the same would apply even more so to Bennett. I want him to be able to develop his offensive game and show more of his creativity, and I really don't think the best place for him to do that is on Geno's line.

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08-02-2013, 06:40 PM
  #196
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Did Despres disappear?
Ah Yes, Despres.

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08-02-2013, 06:59 PM
  #197
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See, this is why I don't want Bennett with Malkin and Neal. I don't want him to have to simplify his game and just fill in the 'play defense and get Geno the puck' role.

You said you thought in a way that Kunitz was wasting some of his talent on that line, but the same would apply even more so to Bennett. I want him to be able to develop his offensive game and show more of his creativity, and I really don't think the best place for him to do that is on Geno's line.
I don't entirely disagree. I was mainly referring to the point of Geno's line being more pressure on him. Though I do think that spot suits Bennett's best skills better than it does Kunitz'. Kunitz is the second best shooter we have at wing, but he doesn't use it much with Geno. He basically becomes a checker who shuffles the puck along the boards. Bennett is a better passer than Kunitz. I also don't think he's a good enough shooter at this point to be a main shooting threat on a line no matter which line it is. Kunitz is. I'd prefer to avoid making Dupuis or Bennett the main shooting option on their lines. Though out of any options Disco might try, I really don't think he will ever even consider Dupuis with Malkin.


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08-03-2013, 01:19 PM
  #198
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I don't entirely disagree. I was mainly referring to the point of Geno's line being more pressure on him. Though I do think that spot suits Bennett's best skills better than it does Kunitz'. Kunitz is the second best shooter we have at wing, but he doesn't use it much with Geno. He basically becomes a checker who shuffles the puck along the boards. Bennett is a better passer than Kunitz. I also don't think he's a good enough shooter at this point to be a main shooting threat on a line no matter which line it is. Kunitz is. I'd prefer to avoid making Dupuis or Bennett the main shooting option on their lines. Though out of any options Disco might try, I really don't think he will ever even consider Dupuis with Malkin.
That's my fear with putting Bennett there. I don't want to stunt his development offensively by making him play that type of role. I'm less worried about putting Kunitz in that position because he is who he is as a player, and while that role might not let him play to all of his strengths, at least he already knows what all of his strengths are.

But I agree that Kunitz is our second best shooter right now. It's actually kind of funny when you think about it that in 82 games with Geno/Neal last year he scored a career high of 26 goals. Then this year in 35 games being Sid's go to shooting option he scored 20.

I also agree that having one of Bennett or Dupuis as the main shooting option on a line isn't ideal. But at the same time, from 2009-2011, Crosby was the best goal scorer in the league. Having a playmaker like Bennett on his wing, may encourage him to shoot more, which really wouldn't be a bad thing.

If Dupuis has to be in the top six, 14-87-19 9-71-18 is by far the best option we have. Like you said though, it does seem like something Dan would never consider. And 9-87-19 14-71-18 is a lot better than 14-87-9 19/36-71-18 in my opinion, so I guess that's what I have to root for.

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08-03-2013, 01:45 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
That's my fear with putting Bennett there. I don't want to stunt his development offensively by making him play that type of role. I'm less worried about putting Kunitz in that position because he is who he is as a player, and while that role might not let him play to all of his strengths, at least he already knows what all of his strengths are.
I'm less worried about it stunting him because I don't think he'll simply shuffle pucks along the boards. He's a better playmaker than Kunitz. I think he might be able to make that an even more dynamic line than Kunitz did.

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But I agree that Kunitz is our second best shooter right now. It's actually kind of funny when you think about it that in 82 games with Geno/Neal last year he scored a career high of 26 goals. Then this year in 35 games being Sid's go to shooting option he scored 20.

I also agree that having one of Bennett or Dupuis as the main shooting option on a line isn't ideal. But at the same time, from 2009-2011, Crosby was the best goal scorer in the league. Having a playmaker like Bennett on his wing, may encourage him to shoot more, which really wouldn't be a bad thing.
That's true. But Sidney Crosby is also the best playmaker in the league. Kunitz and Bennett works both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
If Dupuis has to be in the top six, 14-87-19 9-71-18 is by far the best option we have. Like you said though, it does seem like something Dan would never consider. And 9-87-19 14-71-18 is a lot better than 14-87-9 19/36-71-18 in my opinion, so I guess that's what I have to root for.
That I agree with.

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08-03-2013, 02:09 PM
  #200
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I'm less worried about it stunting him because I don't think he'll simply shuffle pucks along the boards. He's a better playmaker than Kunitz. I think he might be able to make that an even more dynamic line than Kunitz did.

That's true. But Sidney Crosby is also the best playmaker in the league. Kunitz and Bennett works both ways.

That I agree with.
This is all true, and I do think Beau could make the line more dynamic. I just see him outgrowing that role, and I see him getting a chance to develop a better all around game with Crosby than Geno/Neal.

While I have my preference, really I'll be happy if even one of the two main things I want to see next year happen: KCD broken up and Bennett in the top six.

So naturally the lines will be 14-87-9 36-71-18

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