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Anyone else unable to religiously follow this team atm ?

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Old
07-31-2013, 10:34 AM
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Ignoring the reffing in the 1st game for the moment...I think failing to capitalize and not getting bounces or "breaks" were pretty synonymous that series.

We were generating good chances - about as good as you can hope against another contender that far into the playoffs. But every time we got those chances, we'd either ding them off the post or it'd hit a stray player and bounce out instead of deflecting in.

Given how prolific our stars had been all year and the opportunities they were getting that series, I don't see it as more than a blip on the radar.



That's really the part I take issue with. Outside of the 2nd game, I don't think there was a discrepancy in play between the teams, I just think Boston managed to get the puck over the line while we didn't.
I do think the Bruins' system and how the Pens reacted to it had a lot to do with why they weren't getting those bounces.

First off, here's an excellent analysis of the Bruins' defensive system: http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...ensive-layers/
That layering scheme is what made them able to effectively double-team Crosby and Malkin all series long.

Second, is what the Pens didn't do to adjust to that:
http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...roblems-worse/

Note that the second article was written after the second game, but really, the issues described in it continued to haunt the Pens for the entire series.

In all honesty, after reading back over those now, I am getting more annoyed with Bylsma. He's still a young coach, and still fairly early in his coaching career, so it isn't like he's hopeless - but man, he has got to start learning to adjust to things like that. Extension or no, I can't believe that he'll be able to keep his job if the team goes through another embarrassing playoff loss (nor should he).

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07-31-2013, 11:00 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by PensBandwagonerNo272 View Post
I don't think one has to be 'out of their mind' to think that Crosby was kept out of the line-up because A) he wasn't needed, B) there was no need to risk re-injuring his weakened jaw, C) he's relatively injury prone at this point for numerous reasons so there was no need to risk a late season injury.

I think by the time the playoffs started he was definitely 100%. Sure, his jaw/teeth might have ached, but Sid would be the first to tell you that at that point it had virtually no affect on his play except for wearing the mask at first.
The amount of time he was out fell in line with the majority of similar injuries. He was held out because his jaw wasn't healed enough to play.

I'm really not sure how you expect someone to be 100% when they weren't even able to eat solid foods to maintain strength and keep up conditioning. Was he healthy enough to play? Obviously. 100%? That's incredibly doubtful.

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07-31-2013, 11:12 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Wingerz View Post
Definitely. He was likely 100% by the time they played Boston. Most players are pretty beaten up heading into the postseason, not Sid. Sure it had to have been difficult to keep his weight up while his jaw was wired shut. But his magic act of disappearing in the Boston series occurred a month after he returned to the lineup. Crosby might have been the healthiest penguin player on the team for the Boston series. Well except maybe Fleury, he was well rested
Indeed.

While I wouldn't want to say that Crosby isn't "injury-prone" at this point, there is no doubt that there have been periods of time where he has been left out of the line-up longer than was probably necessary simply because we are spoiled with depth that can carry us through the regular season for the most part + running the risk of him getting another "c-word" during some random and somewhat meaningless game.

There's a reason that he instantly returns to "best player in the world" form every time he steps on the ice, no matter how long he's been out, or for whatever reason.

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07-31-2013, 11:14 AM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
The amount of time he was out fell in line with the majority of similar injuries. He was held out because his jaw wasn't healed enough to play.

I'm really not sure how you expect someone to be 100% when they weren't even able to eat solid foods to maintain strength and keep up conditioning. Was he healthy enough to play? Obviously. 100%? That's incredibly doubtful.
I'm sure he was able to eat sufficient protein and calories in one form or other in time to regain his strength in time for his return.

It doesn't take an elite athlete of his prime age long to return to form.

Plus, the solid food vs. liquid food really doesn't make a difference. It's calories and protein, not if you're chewing bricks or sipping water.

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07-31-2013, 11:20 AM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
You can't get swept in two games. Being unable to score in games 3 and 4 lost us just as many games.
You can, however, leave yourself susceptible to "pick 'ems" when you play an opponent evenly the last two games. Which is exactly what happened.

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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
The reason he has trouble coaching skill and talent (asides from having too many options of course) is that he just can't relate to those types of players. He can only relate to grinders because that's who he was.

I mean regardless of who he has on the roster, the message will always be "let's grind these *****es down"
Except...most of the best NHL coaches in the league right now weren't good enough when they played to even make the NHL, and most coaches who were NHL superstars flame out spectacularly.

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Originally Posted by Freeptop View Post
I do think the Bruins' system and how the Pens reacted to it had a lot to do with why they weren't getting those bounces.

First off, here's an excellent analysis of the Bruins' defensive system: http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...ensive-layers/
That layering scheme is what made them able to effectively double-team Crosby and Malkin all series long.

Second, is what the Pens didn't do to adjust to that:
http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...roblems-worse/

Note that the second article was written after the second game, but really, the issues described in it continued to haunt the Pens for the entire series.

In all honesty, after reading back over those now, I am getting more annoyed with Bylsma. He's still a young coach, and still fairly early in his coaching career, so it isn't like he's hopeless - but man, he has got to start learning to adjust to things like that. Extension or no, I can't believe that he'll be able to keep his job if the team goes through another embarrassing playoff loss (nor should he).
Yes, that was certainly written after Game 2.

I had to laugh at the "extracurricular discipline/penalties" section though. Such discipline by Chara, when he punched Sid in the face while Bergeron held him. Such discipline by Marchand, when he literally pointed at Letang before he interfered with him in full view of the ref to give him a breakaway. Yes, it was most definitely discipline that kept those stoic Bruins out of the box.

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07-31-2013, 11:28 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by PensBandwagonerNo272 View Post
I'm sure he was able to eat sufficient protein and calories in one form or other in time to regain his strength in time for his return.

It doesn't take an elite athlete of his prime age long to return to form.

Plus, the solid food vs. liquid food really doesn't make a difference. It's calories and protein, not if you're chewing bricks or sipping water.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. Drinking milkshakes as your main source of nutrition, regardless of what's in them, isn't enough to make it so that you don't lose any strength. There's pretty much no way that anyone could come back and automatically be at 100% in that situation.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Except...most of the best NHL coaches in the league right now weren't even good enough when they played to even make the NHL, and most coaches who were NHL superstars flame out spectacularly.
Right... but those coaches have better been able to separate themselves from the game on a personal level. There's a reason Craig Adams is his favorite

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07-31-2013, 11:50 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
Right... but those coaches have better been able to separate themselves from the game on a personal level. There's a reason Craig Adams is his favorite
I hate that he told Dupuis he was going to stay on Sid's line. That was just...what coach does that?

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07-31-2013, 11:50 AM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. Drinking milkshakes as your main source of nutrition, regardless of what's in them, isn't enough to make it so that you don't lose any strength. There's pretty much no way that anyone could come back and automatically be at 100% in that situation.
Drinking liquids =/= milkshakes

Perhaps you haven't heard of protein shakes before.

You can 110% absolutely intake all of your calories and macronutrients in liquid form.

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07-31-2013, 11:52 AM
  #234
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Also - oats, as an extremely cheap and simple source of complex, slow-digest carbohydrates, can completely fill someones daily carb intake if necessary, and keep you full / give you sustained energy for a long time.

And yeah, they can be broken down into said "milkshakes".

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07-31-2013, 11:57 AM
  #235
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The moment Bylsma was retained, and the moment the management endorsed Fleury as their starter, was the moment a lot of the passion I had for the Pens was sapped from me. They're still "my team", but I'm just not all that enthusiastic about the usual big dates (draft, free agent period, start of the season) as I was before this past season.

I used to be a diehard who would watch as many games as I could and invested so much emotionally in every win and loss, but Shero's off-season decisions have turned me into a casual fan who will follow the boxscores when I remember to and tune into a Pens game only if there's absolutely nothing else for me to do.

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07-31-2013, 11:59 AM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Yes, that was certainly written after Game 2.

I had to laugh at the "extracurricular discipline/penalties" section though. Such discipline by Chara, when he punched Sid in the face while Bergeron held him. Such discipline by Marchand, when he literally pointed at Letang before he interfered with him in full view of the ref to give him a breakaway. Yes, it was most definitely discipline that kept those stoic Bruins out of the box.
For me, it wasn't so much the parts about the Bruins' supposed discipline, as it was the parts about the Pens lacking puck support and puck protection that really resonated.

One thing I had noticed (which means it must have been glaring! ) was the utter lack of anyone going to the net during the series against the Bruins. It meant there was nobody able to pick up rebounds, either for second-chance opportunities on the net, or even just for maintaining puck possession. As such, while they got a lot of shots, they tended to be one-and-done when they entered the offensive zone. It really baffled me, because having someone go to the net like that had been part of the team's system all season long. But that's one obvious example of them not providing support for each other. And that was true all series long, not just in games 1 and 2.

Think about it - sure, a puck could go off the post, but if a Penguin was able to pick up the rebound, there's a second-chance opportunity, or at least a prevention of the Bruins carrying the puck back down the ice. Instead, the puck would go off the post, a Bruin would always get there well before any Penguins, and then they'd get a clean breakout as all the Pens were bottled up on the other side of the ice, leading to an odd-man rush against the defensemen. That's a systemic error on the part of the Pens, and yet that was never changed throughout the entire series.

Luck can play a factor, but you can mitigate bad luck (and take better advantage of good luck) through putting yourself in a better position. The Pens did not put themselves in a better position. The Bruins did. So the Bruins had more bounces go their way (because they didn't always get the bounce on the first try), while the Pens did not (because if the bounce didn't go their way on the first try, they didn't get a second one).

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07-31-2013, 12:01 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I hate that he told Dupuis he was going to stay on Sid's line. That was just...what coach does that?
I know you're a DB fan.. so I'm not sure if you're kidding

But personally, I didn't like that. He shouldn't of guaranteed Dupuis that. I'll give Dan credit though, in that instance, he was certainly a man of his word. It just hurt the team.

I like Dan as a person, really, he seems like a great guy. I just have some issues with him as a coach. But I hope he can grow a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PensBandwagonerNo272 View Post
Drinking liquids =/= milkshakes

Perhaps you haven't heard of protein shakes before.

You can 110% absolutely intake all of your calories and macronutrients in liquid form.
When asked what his diet was, he said 'milkshakes'

I know there's protein shakes. But it's highly unlikely that a professional athlete can go on a liquid diet for a month, skate for two weeks, and magically be at the exact level they were before. But like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
I used to be a diehard who would watch as many games as I could and invested so much emotionally in every win and loss, but Shero's off-season decisions have turned me into a casual fan who will follow the boxscores when I remember to and tune into a Pens game only if there's absolutely nothing else for me to do.
And yet here you are posting on a hockey website at the end of July

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07-31-2013, 12:12 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
And yet here you are posting on a hockey website at the end of July
Like I said, I only pay attention to the Pens when I have nothing else to do.

Besides, I used to post daily, and multiple times per day. Since the off-season began, I've posted maybe a half dozen times, total. I'd say that qualifies as going from a "diehard" poster to a "casual" one.

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07-31-2013, 01:31 PM
  #239
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Would you like to explain to me how they aren't? Their two best players weren't 100%, and our two best players weren't 100%. That's the bottom line. We didn't have an advantage over them due to health.
I'm with TTEOT on this one. Karlsson was out the majority of the season with a really serious injury that most thought would keep him out all year. He was obviously far from 100% and Spezza was barely able to play.

Other than Crosby, we were just the normal banged up. The situations aren't comparable.

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07-31-2013, 01:40 PM
  #240
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Also, Rowdy's opinion on the sweep plus the avatar is making me really hate Bylsma haha

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07-31-2013, 03:17 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
You can, however, leave yourself susceptible to "pick 'ems" when you play an opponent evenly the last two games. Which is exactly what happened.
We didn't play them evenly. We were close, but not even. Execution is a part of playing, and we didn't execute. You are just completely separating the ability to finish a play from the performance of the team. You are completely absolving the players of responsibility for not being able to score in games 3 and 4 and chalking it up to bad bounces instead. I can't understand how that makes sense to you. 2 goals in 4 games is not bad bounces, its bad offense vs good defense and goaltending.


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07-31-2013, 04:17 PM
  #242
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Yeah I don't see what's so wrong with admitting that Boston was clearly better than us in that series. I'm not saying that the score in most games wasn't close or that we didn't have our chances, but I'm not going to make excuses or rationalize the losses. Boston was the better team and played that way. We were swept. That's it.

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08-01-2013, 01:52 PM
  #243
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The league has changed a lot since 2009, and the pens haven't. If anything we've gotten softer and looser defensively. With the personnel the pens have and the way they play, i just don't see how they can beat teams like Boston, LA, or Chicago (even St. Louis really). Those physical, deep teams didn't really exist back in 2008 or 2009. It seems like all is well in the front office though; the pens are winning, the arena's sold out, the pens play an exciting brand of hockey, they're making money. To management I think the cup is really secondary to those things. Over the past 2 regular seasons, all the criticisms that we had about the pens system or defense or coaching all came back to haunt us as they've bowed out in embarrassing fashion. And it seems like management kind of just turns a blind eye to it.

So yeah, i can relate. I'm just going to enjoy the regular season because we've seen this show too many times now.

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08-01-2013, 08:39 PM
  #244
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I still love the Pens but there is one difference for me this season coming up compared to years past.

Bylsma proved to me his ignorance and stubbornness with certain things he did and did not do. I think we'll have a great record in the regular season but I want Bylsma to prove me wrong because I'm expecting another playoff dud from him. We were badly outcoached/outplayed for much of the Isles series. If they had a competent goaltender, we lose that series.

My TK whipping boy status has moved onto Bylsma. My hope is he watched a lot of film this summer and realized he made a lot of mistakes and learned from them. If not, he can take his stubborn smug ass look elsewhere.

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08-01-2013, 08:51 PM
  #245
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The thing that drives me nuts about the Penguins is that they talk one game and then play another.

All they talk about is a puck possession game and then we see a glorified version of dump and chase.

They don't care about match ups but then don't load up the top 6.

Even smaller things like the POP, I think Disco even coined the phrase. How many times do we see a shot just thrown on net without a center drive or anyone near the goalie?

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08-01-2013, 09:24 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
The league has changed a lot since 2009, and the pens haven't. If anything we've gotten softer and looser defensively. With the personnel the pens have and the way they play, i just don't see how they can beat teams like Boston, LA, or Chicago (even St. Louis really). Those physical, deep teams didn't really exist back in 2008 or 2009. It seems like all is well in the front office though; the pens are winning, the arena's sold out, the pens play an exciting brand of hockey, they're making money. To management I think the cup is really secondary to those things. Over the past 2 regular seasons, all the criticisms that we had about the pens system or defense or coaching all came back to haunt us as they've bowed out in embarrassing fashion. And it seems like management kind of just turns a blind eye to it.

So yeah, i can relate. I'm just going to enjoy the regular season because we've seen this show too many times now.
This is very much the way I feel.

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08-01-2013, 09:42 PM
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
The league has changed a lot since 2009, and the pens haven't. If anything we've gotten softer and looser defensively. With the personnel the pens have and the way they play, i just don't see how they can beat teams like Boston, LA, or Chicago (even St. Louis really). Those physical, deep teams didn't really exist back in 2008 or 2009. It seems like all is well in the front office though; the pens are winning, the arena's sold out, the pens play an exciting brand of hockey, they're making money. To management I think the cup is really secondary to those things. Over the past 2 regular seasons, all the criticisms that we had about the pens system or defense or coaching all came back to haunt us as they've bowed out in embarrassing fashion. And it seems like management kind of just turns a blind eye to it.

So yeah, i can relate. I'm just going to enjoy the regular season because we've seen this show too many times now.
This is ridiculous. Chicago this year is much more like the Pens than they are like Boston, and they beat Boston. LA rode a hot goaltender the year before (and got beat by Chicago this year).

And don't forget, Chicago was down 3-1 in the 2nd round this year. Boston should have been out in the first round this year.

What can you draw from all this? Not very much. Pittsburgh's two biggest guns, Crosby and Malkin, did not play well, and were clearly not at 100%. Malkin's shoulder was never right, he didn't have his lethal slapshot. Paul Martin played through a significant injury. Letang had no defense partner. Our bottom pairing was abysmal.

What we need more than anything is for our top players to be healthy, like Chicago's were, then we need some luck like any team needs to win the cup. We can win it with TV, or if Fleury can regain his composure, we can win with him. We know that, because we've done it before.

So let's take it easy with all the insane negativity. Our team right now is arguably better than during last year's playoff run since it's healthy, Letang now has an actual shutdown partner, and since we'll have Depres and Bennett playing significant minutes, and with more experience. If Fleury's shrink works, then we're clearly better there with two solid goaltenders.

So chill out folks.

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08-01-2013, 09:59 PM
  #248
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successful teams have accountability, solid defensive structure, and discipline.

pens have none of that.

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08-01-2013, 10:35 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
I know you're a DB fan.. so I'm not sure if you're kidding

But personally, I didn't like that. He shouldn't of guaranteed Dupuis that. I'll give Dan credit though, in that instance, he was certainly a man of his word. It just hurt the team.

I like Dan as a person, really, he seems like a great guy. I just have some issues with him as a coach. But I hope he can grow a bit.
No, I legitimately didn't like that either.

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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
We didn't play them evenly. We were close, but not even. Execution is a part of playing, and we didn't execute. You are just completely separating the ability to finish a play from the performance of the team. You are completely absolving the players of responsibility for not being able to score in games 3 and 4 and chalking it up to bad bounces instead. I can't understand how that makes sense to you. 2 goals in 4 games is not bad bounces, its bad offense vs good defense and goaltending.
"Execute". If only Neal hadn't dinged it off the post in Game 3 a minute before we lost the game, we'd have executed. If only Malkin's shot hadn't caught Chara's arm when he flailed it out in desperation, we'd have executed. For the record, we had good defense and goaltending that series too outside of Game 2, though that's overlooked because of our inability to score.

It's a game of inches, and the Bruins got those breaks in the final two games after the Game 1 debacle and our inability to recoup the following game. Kudos to the Bruins for taking advantage and not letting up in Game 2 though. They obviously outplayed us there.

I understand your take on the series. I also don't feel like butting heads re-iterating my take. We disagree and we're not going to agree.


Last edited by Warm Cookies: 08-01-2013 at 11:07 PM.
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08-01-2013, 10:40 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
The league has changed a lot since 2009, and the pens haven't. If anything we've gotten softer and looser defensively. With the personnel the pens have and the way they play, i just don't see how they can beat teams like Boston, LA, or Chicago (even St. Louis really). Those physical, deep teams didn't really exist back in 2008 or 2009. It seems like all is well in the front office though; the pens are winning, the arena's sold out, the pens play an exciting brand of hockey, they're making money. To management I think the cup is really secondary to those things. Over the past 2 regular seasons, all the criticisms that we had about the pens system or defense or coaching all came back to haunt us as they've bowed out in embarrassing fashion. And it seems like management kind of just turns a blind eye to it.

So yeah, i can relate. I'm just going to enjoy the regular season because we've seen this show too many times now.
I don't see how anyone could think the likes of Shero and Bylsma are content to win in the regular season, fill arenas, and make money. You can disagree with their method, but not their motivation.

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