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Really good explaination of how Bergevin did right thing with subban.

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Old
08-01-2013, 01:12 PM
  #101
Frozenice
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Don't forget that in 2021-22 a cap of $126.8M means the average salary is 5.5 million a player on a 23 man roster.

Teams that can't spend to the cap will have to be gone by then.
They only have to spend to the cap floor but don't forget as the bottom teams leave the average team revenue will go up and that will drive the salary cap and salary floor up to.

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08-01-2013, 01:16 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by snakeye View Post
Hence the reason for a bridge contact; to give time to assess a player's worth, during a stage in which he's still developing.
Except PK was already worth a 4-5M salary. He was already a top 30 Dman in the NHL. Crosby was still developing, so was Kane, Toews, Malkin, and a bunch of others coming out of their ELC, doesn't mean they're not worth a long investment. We're not talking about a mid level prospect who had decent seasons.

Again, you can argue for the bridge deal, but the amount of money Bergevin gave showed he just didn't know PK well enough. The way Therrien used him for the early part of the year also reflects that.
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Originally Posted by dreamingofdrouin View Post
No...that is the impatient mentality that has rode us into the ground for the last 20 years. Your thinking about this the wrong way. I want to be good for years and years, and it's not by any means out of the qeustion if we stick to the draft.

Galchenyuk will be 22 in 4 years...all of our stars will be in their prime or just entering it and we will be thankfull that we won;t have to resign PK subban to an even bigger caphit than 7-8.
The league is absolutely booming right now even after the lockout.

We don't need the extra 3 million in cap space to get guys for the next few years won't be as important as the space we'll have down the road.
Gionta comes off the books next year, so does markov, than the year after that briere and plekanec.

Our cap space is fine and if a good ufa comes available and he doesn't want the moon we will have sufficient space to sign them.
What impatience? Not sure you really understand what I'm saying.
I have no issue building through the draft, and everybody wants to be good year in year out, forever. So what are you really talking about here??

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08-01-2013, 01:16 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by dreamingofdrouin View Post
No...that is the impatient mentality that has rode us into the ground for the last 20 years. Your thinking about this the wrong way. I want to be good for years and years, and it's not by any means out of the qeustion if we stick to the draft.

Galchenyuk will be 22 in 4 years...all of our stars will be in their prime or just entering it and we will be thankfull that we won;t have to resign PK subban to an even bigger caphit than 7-8.
The league is absolutely booming right now even after the lockout.

We don't need the extra 3 million in cap space to get guys for the next few years won't be as important as the space we'll have down the road.
Gionta comes off the books next year, so does markov, than the year after that briere and plekanec.

Our cap space is fine and if a good ufa comes available and he doesn't want the moon we will have sufficient space to sign them.
3 of our top 5 scorers last season are already 30 or over so it's hard to credit all of our stars will be in their prime.

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08-01-2013, 01:45 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Don't forget that in 2021-22 a cap of $126.8M means the average salary is 5.5 million a player on a 23 man roster.

Teams that can't spend to the cap will have to be gone by then.
This article was bad to its very core, so far as forecasting goes. Somewhere, an actuary is pissing him or herself having read this.

I mean, the NHL and NHLPA were fighting over whether 4% was sustainable over the course of the next CBA, ffs. And we have stooges here saying that over twice that might be a touch conservative.

You really can publish just about anything about hockey so long as you put some numbers in it, and be reasonably certain that it'll be accepted by its audience.

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08-01-2013, 01:49 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
This article was bad to its very core, so far as forecasting goes. Somewhere, an actuary is pissing him or herself having read this.

I mean, the NHL and NHLPA were fighting over whether 4% was sustainable over the course of the next CBA, ffs. And we have stooges here saying that over twice that might be a touch conservative.

You really can publish just about anything about hockey so long as you put some numbers in it, and be reasonably certain that it'll be accepted by its audience.
This, a thousand times this.

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08-01-2013, 02:40 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Except PK was already worth a 4-5M salary. He was already a top 30 Dman in the NHL. Crosby was still developing, so was Kane, Toews, Malkin, and a bunch of others coming out of their ELC, doesn't mean they're not worth a long investment. We're not talking about a mid level prospect who had decent seasons.

Again, you can argue for the bridge deal, but the amount of money Bergevin gave showed he just didn't know PK well enough. The way Therrien used him for the early part of the year also reflects that.


What impatience? Not sure you really understand what I'm saying.
I have no issue building through the draft, and everybody wants to be good year in year out, forever. So what are you really talking about here??
I'm saying that we will have a better window in the years after the proposed subban five year contract would have been up than in the next 4 years.

I'm saying that bergevin is a better GM than gainey and gauthier ever were and if they can create, pretty much everything that we have right now, than bergevin should be able to do a better job with the future of the team....neither of us can say with certainty which regime will be better but I have a wild guess that it's bergevin. i'd rather have that cap space in the years when his draftee's start to come to fruition than in the era of the players of the old regime, because even though i know we can be a pretty good team right now and maybe adding that big name would be enough to push us to the top, i think there's a far better chance that are best years are still off in the distance. I think the development of our defence and a finding better number 2 is going to take longer than just 2-4 years.

There could have been cap savings in the immediate future, and there will be cap savings in the distant future. The amount we could have/will save are probabley around the same, but even if it was more savings sooner rather than later i would rather take it later, in the era I believe will have the better montreal canadiens core.

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08-01-2013, 02:57 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
This article was bad to its very core, so far as forecasting goes. Somewhere, an actuary is pissing him or herself having read this.

I mean, the NHL and NHLPA were fighting over whether 4% was sustainable over the course of the next CBA, ffs. And we have stooges here saying that over twice that might be a touch conservative.

You really can publish just about anything about hockey so long as you put some numbers in it, and be reasonably certain that it'll be accepted by its audience.
Not to mention the Canadian dollar getting weaker...

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08-01-2013, 03:11 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by dreamingofdrouin View Post
I'm saying that we will have a better window in the years after the proposed subban five year contract would have been up than in the next 4 years.

I'm saying that bergevin is a better GM than gainey and gauthier ever were and if they can create, pretty much everything that we have right now, than bergevin should be able to do a better job with the future of the team....neither of us can say with certainty which regime will be better but I have a wild guess that it's bergevin. i'd rather have that cap space in the years when his draftee's start to come to fruition than in the era of the players of the old regime, because even though i know we can be a pretty good team right now and maybe adding that big name would be enough to push us to the top, i think there's a far better chance that are best years are still off in the distance. I think the development of our defence and a finding better number 2 is going to take longer than just 2-4 years.

There could have been cap savings in the immediate future, and there will be cap savings in the distant future. The amount we could have/will save are probabley around the same, but even if it was more savings sooner rather than later i would rather take it later, in the era I believe will have the better montreal canadiens core.

But how do you know that we'll be better in the years 5-6-7??? You just don't. It's all good to believe in it, but the whole team could be different by then, so who freaking knows.
What we do know is what our current club looks like, and which youngsters in the AHL should be making their ways to the NHL this upcoming season, or the next. We should have guys like Colberg, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Emelin, PK, MaxPac, Price, Eller, Gally, Galla, possibly Diaz, on our club within the next few years playing some decent-great hockey for us. You surround them with great veterans and we could very well be a top contender. We don't have to wait for 7 years, we know we have a chance of being solid within the next few years.
So any extra cap would have helped.

As for comparing regimes, I have no idea what that's about. I never brought up the old administration once.

And again, in terms of PK himself, if we do sign him to that 8y/8M deal the author is going on, then he will not be at a discounted price in 7 years.

I don't think you understand much of what I'm saying.

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08-01-2013, 03:13 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
This article was bad to its very core, so far as forecasting goes. Somewhere, an actuary is pissing him or herself having read this.

I mean, the NHL and NHLPA were fighting over whether 4% was sustainable over the course of the next CBA, ffs. And we have stooges here saying that over twice that might be a touch conservative.

You really can publish just about anything about hockey so long as you put some numbers in it, and be reasonably certain that it'll be accepted by its audience.
I just love the conclusion I can take out of this article. In order for this (the bridge deal) to make sense, I need to assume some unrealistic things will happen.

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08-01-2013, 03:23 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I just love the conclusion I can take out of this article. In order for this (the bridge deal) to make sense, I need to assume some unrealistic things will happen.
Studies have shown that if PK Subban were to have received fair value entering the 2013 season, that he would displace Oprah as the richest black person in the entire world. Don't you all feel silly now for doubting Bergevin?

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08-01-2013, 04:14 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
But how do you know that we'll be better in the years 5-6-7??? You just don't. It's all good to believe in it, but the whole team could be different by then, so who freaking knows.
What we do know is what our current club looks like, and which youngsters in the AHL should be making their ways to the NHL this upcoming season, or the next. We should have guys like Colberg, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Emelin, PK, MaxPac, Price, Eller, Gally, Galla, possibly Diaz, on our club within the next few years playing some decent-great hockey for us. You surround them with great veterans and we could very well be a top contender. We don't have to wait for 7 years, we know we have a chance of being solid within the next few years.
So any extra cap would have helped.

As for comparing regimes, I have no idea what that's about. I never brought up the old administration once.

And again, in terms of PK himself, if we do sign him to that 8y/8M deal the author is going on, then he will not be at a discounted price in 7 years.

I don't think you understand much of what I'm saying.
In 5-6-7 years every player you just mentioned there is either going to be a part of the core of our team or traded for an equally important part.

Do you think we're just gonna let go of pk subban...price, gally, gally, maxpac, tinordi, beaulieu, collberg, hudon. They are gonna be our core in 5-6-7 years, that's what our team is gonna look like and I believe like you that they will form a great team, but they are not all gonna be great right off the hop. Galchenyuk is obviously having a quicker impact, but gallagher was drafted in 2010...maxpac and subban in 2007. Prospects take time to come into their own, especially d-men and we still need a big piece there to replace markov. The best years of the core that you have just listed will be beyond the proposed PK subban 5 year deal.

It's a very simple concept and I cannot believe it takes this much for you to understand it.....I want to have subbans cap savings in the era of bergevins team. Not gauthier and gainey's.

I KNOW that i cannot say that one era will most certainly be better than another, but you seem to think you can..lol

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08-01-2013, 04:24 PM
  #112
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Except PK was already worth a 4-5M salary. He was already a top 30 Dman in the NHL. Crosby was still developing, so was Kane, Toews, Malkin, and a bunch of others coming out of their ELC, doesn't mean they're not worth a long investment. We're not talking about a mid level prospect who had decent seasons.

Again, you can argue for the bridge deal, but the amount of money Bergevin gave showed he just didn't know PK well enough. The way Therrien used him for the early part of the year also reflects that.


What impatience? Not sure you really understand what I'm saying.
I have no issue building through the draft, and everybody wants to be good year in year out, forever. So what are you really talking about here??
Now that I agree with completely. Subban wasn't given the salary he deserved during the length of the bridge contract.

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08-01-2013, 04:24 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by dreamingofdrouin View Post
In 5-6-7 years every player you just mentioned there is either going to be a part of the core of our team or traded for an equally important part.

Do you think we're just gonna let go of pk subban...price, gally, gally, maxpac, tinordi, beaulieu, collberg, hudon. They are gonna be our core in 5-6-7 years, that's what our team is gonna look like and I believe like you that they will form a great team, but they are not all gonna be great right off the hop. Galchenyuk is obviously having a quicker impact, but gallagher was drafted in 2010...maxpac and subban in 2007. Prospects take time to come into their own, especially d-men and we still need a big piece there to replace markov. The best years of the core that you have just listed will be beyond the proposed PK subban 5 year deal.

It's a very simple concept and I cannot believe it takes this much for you to understand it.....I want to have subbans cap savings in the era of bergevins team. Not gauthier and gainey's.

I KNOW that i cannot say that one era will most certainly be better than another, but you seem to think you can..lol
It's something we've seen before when our future core was Higgins, Komisarek, Perezhogin, Kostitsyns, Chipchura and company. Go back 5 years and see what people said our core would be right now. Go back 10 years and compare it to what we had 5 years ago and it's the same thing. There is so much roster turnover that your scenario is extremely unlikely to happen.

But I'll give you credit you actually acknowledged replacing Markov will be a big task. So what happens if we can't find a replacement (They don't exactly grow on trees)? Then our best years are right now when we have him & Subban to go along with a bunch of young cheap talent.

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08-01-2013, 04:53 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by dreamingofdrouin View Post
In 5-6-7 years every player you just mentioned there is either going to be a part of the core of our team or traded for an equally important part.

Do you think we're just gonna let go of pk subban...price, gally, gally, maxpac, tinordi, beaulieu, collberg, hudon. They are gonna be our core in 5-6-7 years, that's what our team is gonna look like and I believe like you that they will form a great team, but they are not all gonna be great right off the hop. Galchenyuk is obviously having a quicker impact, but gallagher was drafted in 2010...maxpac and subban in 2007. Prospects take time to come into their own, especially d-men and we still need a big piece there to replace markov. The best years of the core that you have just listed will be beyond the proposed PK subban 5 year deal.

It's a very simple concept and I cannot believe it takes this much for you to understand it.....I want to have subbans cap savings in the era of bergevins team. Not gauthier and gainey's.

I KNOW that i cannot say that one era will most certainly be better than another, but you seem to think you can..lol
I never compared eras so no idea what you're talking about.
As for your future core, again, it's just way too far into the future to really know what will happen. As I said, the whole team could be different, so you can't argue it'll be the time to invest. Maybe, maybe not. All we have is our current team to go on, we have enough good pieces in place to contend in the next few years.

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08-01-2013, 07:03 PM
  #115
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Kinda OT but skip to 4:00 in the video and hear Toews story about Kane:


He says that he screamed at Kane on the bench to pass him the puck + ~2 min of screaming at each other on the bench.

Subban does it for 3 seconds with Pacioretty and it's made to be seen as it's some sort of rare event that never happens and how bad Subban is...

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08-01-2013, 07:11 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Kinda OT but skip to 4:00 in the video and hear Toews story about Kane:


He says that he screamed at Kane on the bench to pass him the puck + ~2 min of screaming at each other on the bench.

Subban does it for 3 seconds with Pacioretty and it's made to be seen as it's some sort of rare event that never happens and how bad Subban is...
So what? I dont think Toews fights with Kane during practices, Subban situation is worse AINEC



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08-01-2013, 07:21 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Kinda OT but skip to 4:00 in the video and hear Toews story about Kane:


He says that he screamed at Kane on the bench to pass him the puck + ~2 min of screaming at each other on the bench.

Subban does it for 3 seconds with Pacioretty and it's made to be seen as it's some sort of rare event that never happens and how bad Subban is...
Players yell at their teammates much more than we think. It's just CBC man and it was P.K...they wanted to make a big story about this. **** them.

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08-01-2013, 07:46 PM
  #118
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Bergevin deserves an A+ for his first year. The structural and organization changes outweigh the singular moves the armchair GM's would lead you to believe.

1. He has added depth and hockey experience in every department of the organization. Player development, advisers, pro scouts, amateur scouts - you name it - he's added. And all experienced hockey guys. We went from probably the thinnest organization that was controlled by one guy, to a deep structure with trusted professionals are given much more leeway.

2. Hasn't traded a single draft pick - added a few himself. (Actually I stand corrected - he traded our seventh this year for Florida's seventh next year)

3. Made development a key organizational objective with the addition of resources (see #1) and not rushing players to the NHL.

4. Clearly changing the culture of the dressing room and team. From sticking to his guns on Subban, by adding Prust and Parros, by drafting size he has remained true to his word that change will come but mostly from within (draft) and adding complimentary pieces through UFA.

5. Held steady on UFA contracts especially in term.

This is what builds champions - not *****ing about DD. Bergevin is all about the big picture while trying to achieve the most success immediately without compromising the future. This is the most important attribute of a good GM, and Bergevin has this in spades.

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08-01-2013, 08:20 PM
  #119
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I never compared eras so no idea what you're talking about.
As for your future core, again, it's just way too far into the future to really know what will happen. As I said, the whole team could be different, so you can't argue it'll be the time to invest. Maybe, maybe not. All we have is our current team to go on, we have enough good pieces in place to contend in the next few years.

Markov is coming to the end of the road...as is gionta and briere. We don't have a chance to contend with those guys at the helm after a couple years, and that means 2..tops...they are done after that. We have a very short window with them and the youngsters yes.....but i don't believe we can be a successful team with those guys in our top six and top d pairings in 2015-16, and so therefore am glad that we didn't try to get the most bang for our buck in the coming four years with subban, as opposed to in the future when tinordi and beaulieu and other d prospects will have time to develop into what we need them to be and we'll have time to find a number 2, and we'll have had the time to properly fill our top six with youth instead of briere and gionta and to a lesser extent bourque and eventually plekanec.

really....this is not a complicated concept.....i don;t get how you can be so confused.....we have core players who are OLD...and yah they may provide enough in combination with all the youth that we have had come in and a norris d-man and a great performance from price to get us to the promise land...im praying for it...im thinking about it everyday,....and will be extremely dissapointed if we don't win the cup next year, as i am every year. But your fooling yourself if your think most of these vet's can hold up for another 4 years....it's just not going to happen.

Future>now.....that is what i'm saying....mother of god.

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08-01-2013, 10:19 PM
  #120
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Markov is coming to the end of the road...as is gionta and briere. We don't have a chance to contend with those guys at the helm after a couple years, and that means 2..tops...they are done after that. We have a very short window with them and the youngsters yes.....but i don't believe we can be a successful team with those guys in our top six and top d pairings in 2015-16, and so therefore am glad that we didn't try to get the most bang for our buck in the coming four years with subban, as opposed to in the future when tinordi and beaulieu and other d prospects will have time to develop into what we need them to be and we'll have time to find a number 2, and we'll have had the time to properly fill our top six with youth instead of briere and gionta and to a lesser extent bourque and eventually plekanec.

really....this is not a complicated concept.....i don;t get how you can be so confused.....we have core players who are OLD...and yah they may provide enough in combination with all the youth that we have had come in and a norris d-man and a great performance from price to get us to the promise land...im praying for it...im thinking about it everyday,....and will be extremely dissapointed if we don't win the cup next year, as i am every year. But your fooling yourself if your think most of these vet's can hold up for another 4 years....it's just not going to happen.

Future>now.....that is what i'm saying....mother of god.
I think I found the problem. I think we view our team differently. You seem to think our core consists of old players, I disagree. I think the older guys you speak of (Gionta, Markov..) are secondary and tertiary players. Our core is PK, Price, MaxPac, Plekanec and Gorges to me. I think for now, those are our 5 key guys. I'm hoping for a little transfer with Eller taking over Plekanec and Emelin does the same with Gorges over the next couple of years. That means the core will be MaxPac, PK, Emelin, Eller and Price.
Guys like Bourque, Gionta, Markov, Briere, are complimentary pieces, not core players.
I think some of these guys can still hold key roles, notably Markov, but the others, over the next few years can be replaced by younger free agents. So you see, I'm not saying Markov, Gionta and Briere need to be at the helm for 4 years, heck they're not even at the helm today. That's why I don't understand why you thought I viewed them as core players. They're not.

Hopefully, guys like Eller and Galchenyuk will take the reigns of the center positions within 2-3 years, making Plekanec expendable or giving the Habs a seriously dangerous and effective trio of centers to lead their respective lines.
Guys like Gionta and Briere will be replaced via free agency for other more effective players. The only older guy I'd keep is Markov, and then again, that will depend a lot on next season and his salary demands.

You and I have a different view of who our core players are.

I'm also talking about the future btw, 2-4 years is the future, not the present.

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08-01-2013, 10:24 PM
  #121
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Except PK was already worth a 4-5M salary. He was already a top 30 Dman in the NHL. Crosby was still developing, so was Kane, Toews, Malkin, and a bunch of others coming out of their ELC
Crosby : 102, 120 and 72 pts (in 53 games) in his first three seasons...

Malkin : 85, 106, 113 pts seasons...

Kane : 72, 70 and -> 88 pts seasons...

Toews : 54, 69, 68 pts seasons...





So yeah, P.K. is already a top 30 d-man, the others ? they're just developping...

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08-01-2013, 10:28 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Crosby : 102, 120 and 72 pts (in 53 games) in his first three seasons...

Malkin : 85, 106, 113 pts seasons...

Kane : 72, 70 and -> 88 pts seasons...

Toews : 54, 69, 68 pts seasons...





So yeah, P.K. is already a top 30 d-man, the others ? they're just developping...
You're still comparing points between forwards and Dmen?
I know we disagree on this subject, but damn dude..points? Really?..

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08-01-2013, 10:36 PM
  #123
ECWHSWI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You're still comparing points between forwards and Dmen?
I know we disagree on this subject, but damn dude..points? Really?..
yeah I know, 100 pts forwards are just "developping" right ?

including ones who are good enough to be 1st liners on Cup winning teams (that's like huh... the 4 players you named), two of them who could easily be considered among the 5 best C in the league, one of the two being a playoff MVP - the other considered by many to be the best player in the game, another among the 5 best RW in the league... and ALL FOUR being cup winners.

Yeah! sure, it's all about points I guess...

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08-02-2013, 04:44 AM
  #124
MasterDecoy
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In the end, the Habs will have subban locked
up for longer than they would have had GMMB not done the bridge contract AND marc will have a much clearer idea of subban's play, attitude and commitment and that's all that matters to me, and that should matter to you lot. I also believe that the whole 'GMMB pissed off subban and is gonna scare him away' bit, is just BS scaremongering.

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08-02-2013, 08:33 AM
  #125
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
yeah I know, 100 pts forwards are just "developping" right ?

including ones who are good enough to be 1st liners on Cup winning teams (that's like huh... the 4 players you named), two of them who could easily be considered among the 5 best C in the league, one of the two being a playoff MVP - the other considered by many to be the best player in the game, another among the 5 best RW in the league... and ALL FOUR being cup winners.

Yeah! sure, it's all about points I guess...
Are you trying to argue that those guys have not developed and progressed since their rookie season?
Point is every youngster will still be in development after a few years of coming into the league, no matter how good.

But yea, you're right, so crazy!

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