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Old
07-24-2013, 10:00 AM
  #626
BlindWillyMcHurt
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I was a little surprised when the Penguins let Moulson walk. He was a pretty decent forward prospect, at the time. He just sort of slipped through the cracks during a time of transition.

I'm not sure why L.A. let him go. He didn't put up terrible numbers in Manchester, or anything. Quite the contrary. I'm far, far too lazy to actually research it but I imagine they didn't feel like he was NHL caliber, judging by a quick glance at his numbers on the Kings over 29 games in two seasons.

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07-24-2013, 10:00 AM
  #627
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That's the thing. I don't think he's wimpy by any means. When he plays with that edge he's at his best. He competes but Letang can get downright nasty. Maybe that compete level will show more as he gets stronger but you could see Letang had a nasty side to his game even before he became a fitness freak.

Goligoski used to step up and pop people when he played for Minny. It was more of a timing gap play more than a mean one. That didn't carry over to the pro's though.
Yeah, Letang's probably the meanest player on our defense, Orpik included.

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07-24-2013, 10:03 AM
  #628
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Yah the Moulson thing really hurts. That was a bad miss for sure. No excuses on that one.
I always wonder if scouts have the time to really watch a kid play or if they have to watch so many players that they miss a kid that's more about sense. Like a scout sees an elite skater like Rico Fata and comes away impressed but then blahs Moulson who does more with sense. You have to watch Moulson a few times to see that he's not just getting lucky.

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07-24-2013, 10:06 AM
  #629
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
I always wonder if scouts have the time to really watch a kid play or if they have to watch so many players that they miss a kid that's more about sense. Like a scout sees an elite skater like Rico Fata and comes away impressed but then blahs Moulson who does more with sense. You have to watch Moulson a few times to see that he's not just getting lucky.
Suspect scouting could definitely be a part of it, and as likely an explanation (given our track record with F prospects) as any.

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07-24-2013, 10:31 AM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Beaudangles13 View Post
Kinda random but did anyone know we Actually drafted Jake Muzzin??
I had written up a small blurb about that in my post about the 2005-2007 drafts but took it back out. They also drafted Matt Moulson in 2003 (in the 9th round no less) and let him walk... kinda ties into what Crafton said about "cutting the cord" on prospects that don't seem to be going anywhere.

After posting that yesterday, and then again this morning with Crafton's question re: Pens vs. rest of the NHL, I wanted to look at the drafts from the past decade or so, and find some of the "late bloomers" and who drafted them, since it's not always the team they broke through with... there is a surprising number of decent* players/regular NHLers that went in really late rounds, some that wouldn't even be drafted today since they dropped it from 9 to 7 rounds:

6th & 7th round picks, 2001-2009
2001
172. Dennis Seidenberg (PHI)
175. Ryan Clowe (SJS)
176. Marek Zidlicky (NYR)
192. Jussi Jokinen (DAL)
193. Brooks Laich (OTT)
214. Cristobal Huet (LAK)
221. Johnny Oduya (WAS)

2002
191. Ian White (TOR)

2003
168. Marc Methot (CBJ)
182. Bruno Gervais (NYI)
186. Drew Miller (ANA)
205. Joe Pavelski (SJS)
214. Kyle Brodziak (EDM)

2004
176. Pat Kaleta (BUF)
180. Roman Polak (STL)
206. Anton Khudobin (MIN)
214. Troy Brouwer (CHI)
224. Matt Hunwick (BOS)
227. Chris Campoli (NYI)

2005
190. Matt D'Agostini (MTL)
195. Joe Vitale (PIT)
200. Sergei Kostitsyn (MTL)
230. Patric Hornqvist (NSH)

2006
160. Andrew MacDonald (NYI)
161. Viktor Stalberg (TOR)
177. Mathieu Perreault (WAS)

2007
168. Carl Hagelin (NYR)
171. Dustin Jeffrey (PIT)
194. Carl Gunnarsson (TOR)

2008
156. Jared Spurgeon (NYI)
178. Zac Rinaldo (PHI)
186. Jason Demers (SJS)
207. Anders Lindback (NSH)

2009
172. Eric Wellwood (PHI) e: was thinking Kyle Wellwood here


8th & 9th round picks, 2001-2004
2001
232. Martin Gerber (ANA)
264. P.A. Parenteau (ANA)

2002
234. Max Talbot (PIT)
241. Dennis Wideman (BUF)
282. Adam Burish (CHI)

2003
239. Tobias Enstrom (ATL/WIN)
245. Dustin Byfuglien (CHI)
263. Matt Moulson (PIT)
265. Tanner Glass (FLA) thanks Florida...
271. Jaroslav Halak (MTL)
291. Brian Elliott (OTT)

2004
239. Brandon Yip (COL)
258. Pekka Rinne (NSH)
262. Mark Streit (MTL)
265. Dan Winnik (PHX)


Since around 2008/2009, I can't find anyone has come out of the last 2 rounds to become a regular NHLer. IMO this reinforces two points: 1. it takes years for a lot of these guys before they are ready to graduate to the NHL, and 2. maybe the NHL was right to cut out those last 2 rounds of the draft, since there does not appear to be the same amount of talent available that late like there was in years prior.

A good number of those players listed broke through on teams other than the one that drafted them, but I didn't go through them all to see how their draft team handled them, though it does suggest that the Pens are not alone when it comes to trading/cutting loose prospects who have not shown enough to re-sign.

Now, for every one of those guys, there are at least a dozen that never even made the jump to the NHL; there are also at least a dozen taken in the first three rounds that also never made the jump. But it illustrates just how much of a crapshoot the draft can be - first/second round guys are not necessarily guarantees, and it's not always wise to discount anyone taken after the third round. It's great to take a look at our prospect pool and get a feel for who is NHL-ready, who has the highest ceiling, etc., but until these guys are given time to show their stuff, nothing is set in stone.

*Included are players who played regular minutes as a regular top-12 forward/top-6 D/starting goalie at some point in the last decade, but the list is certainly not exhaustive/all-inclusive.


Last edited by themethod7: 07-24-2013 at 11:43 AM.
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07-24-2013, 11:21 AM
  #631
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The Isles are known for giving tweener AHL/NHL players a chance when other teams give up - mainly because they have been unable to lure bigger names due to internal cap constraints and have roster space to gamble. That's how they uncover the Moulson's and Parenteau's. Like anything else, it doesn't always work (Aucoin, Schremp - and in the TBD category - Hickey).

I would guess their fans would trade the "ability" to uncover a few gems for having a team that was able to spend more to bring in more established players. Not to take away from it though - their scouts have done a good job in that department.

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07-24-2013, 12:42 PM
  #632
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I think you can include Eric Wellwood, he looks to be a decent player.

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07-24-2013, 12:45 PM
  #633
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i know engaging in this kind of thinking is dangerous and often less than illuminating, but just imagine Hagelin spending some practices with Crosby and Dupuis - dude would become a stud. just missed out on him by a few spots.

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07-24-2013, 04:54 PM
  #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
was he any good when we let him go? With LA? I have absolutely no idea.
If you're talking about Moulson, blame Greg Malone rather than Ray Shero. Shero was barely on the job as Pens GM at the time that the call had to be made on whether to sign Moulson after his senior year of college or not. He asked his scouts (where Malone was the head scout at the time), and their recommendation was to not sign Moulson. Shero had no reason to override Malone on an 8th round pick that he had no reason to have known much about at the time. Moulson then signed with the Kings as a free-agent, and didn't even sniff the NHL with them. They eventually didn't re-sign him, at which point the Islanders picked him up, put him with Tavares, and now he's a viable NHL player.

Honestly, it doesn't bug me too much to lose out on him. It's not like he was a can't-miss prospect at any point, and it's still very possible that Moulson is to Tavares what Warren Young was to to Mario Lemieux. (Not that Tavares is anywhere near Lemieux's level - just that sometimes you have a lesser talent player that just clicks with a higher talent one for whatever reason).

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07-28-2013, 02:31 PM
  #635
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Hi Pens fan, I'm a big Jean-Sebastien Dea fan, I know he was at the Pens prospects camp and I heard that he was invited to the big camp.

How he was doing?

Thanks in advance!

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07-28-2013, 02:49 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by QMJHLfollower View Post
Hi Pens fan, I'm a big Jean-Sebastien Dea fan, I know he was at the Pens prospects camp and I heard that he was invited to the big camp.

How he was doing?

Thanks in advance!
where did you hear he was invited to main camp? he must have impressed if he got invited to the main camp.

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07-28-2013, 07:15 PM
  #637
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speaking of Jean-Sébastien Dea, how does he compare to his line-mates?

Nikita Kucherov (7.5C on HF) was picked 2 (58th) in 2011 and Sven Andrighetto (7.5D on HF) was picked 3 (86th) in 2013.

all three dudes look small [click link to see them standing together]...

Quote:
Jean-Sebastien Dea ‏@jsdea10 8 May
Best players I played with @Andrighetto25 @kucher86 #missUboys #HuskiesRN pic.twitter.com/6hRc3i9d3B
https://twitter.com/jsdea10/status/332280971363745792


Last edited by Crafton: 07-28-2013 at 07:22 PM.
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07-28-2013, 11:58 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
I always wonder if scouts have the time to really watch a kid play or if they have to watch so many players that they miss a kid that's more about sense. Like a scout sees an elite skater like Rico Fata and comes away impressed but then blahs Moulson who does more with sense. You have to watch Moulson a few times to see that he's not just getting lucky.
If I'm not mistaken, Shero went on record about this. Moulson wasn't qualified due to unfamiliarity with the player (Shero was hired very shortly before it was time to make a decision on that...think it was maybe a week or two).

Can't remember if he said Moulson got lost in scout turnover or if he just went with the recommendation of one of Patrick's guys. I am almost certain he said he had zero first person knowledge of the guy.

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07-31-2013, 01:12 PM
  #639
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so what ever happened with that Connor Rankin cat?

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08-01-2013, 09:11 AM
  #640
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Originally Posted by QMJHLfollower View Post
Hi Pens fan, I'm a big Jean-Sebastien Dea fan, I know he was at the Pens prospects camp and I heard that he was invited to the big camp.

How he was doing?

Thanks in advance!
It appears he has been invited to the prospects camp.
Quote:
Eric Majeski ‏@LGP_netwolf 9m
It appears JS Dea made a good impression at Development camp. Earned himself an invite to the September rookie tournament.
Quote:
Jean-Sebastien Dea ‏@jsdea10 30 Jul
Invited at the Pittsburgh Penguins rookies camp !! Very excited to play for that organization #GreatOrganization #GreatStaff #Penguins

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08-01-2013, 10:24 AM
  #641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QMJHLfollower View Post
Hi Pens fan, I'm a big Jean-Sebastien Dea fan, I know he was at the Pens prospects camp and I heard that he was invited to the big camp.

How he was doing?

Thanks in advance!
I believe he got an invite to the play in the rookie tournament that's the week before main camp.

He had a good week IMO. It was pretty easy to see he was one of the more skilled guys out there, really fast too. He obviously needs to get stronger, but from what I read, he had a bit of a growth spurt prior to last season. I was there each day and did daily reports, which you can find here if interested: http://www.letsgopens.com/camp_reports.php

Sounds like consistency was an issue last year (read he scored 30+ of his 45 goals in the 1st half of the season), but you probably know more about his year in the Q than I do. Seems like a really skilled kid, curious to see how he does in the rookie tournament against better competition.

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08-01-2013, 10:31 AM
  #642
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I wonder if theres any chance we sign him if he plays good in the rookie camp?

From what i understand you can sign undrafted players before the season start, but if we dont sign him by then he will be draft eligible again next draft.

Sure, the pens have seen the kid play so they may draft him next draft. But there is also the chance hell have a really good season next season and thensome other team might draft him.

I dont see why we shouldnt take a chance on the kid, hell cost nothing (other than a contract spot when he turns pro).

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08-01-2013, 10:40 AM
  #643
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Pens have 49 contracts and the max is 50. 99.999% chance Maatta/Pouliot will slide to next year. Riley Holzapfel is among the 49, but I'm not sure if he counts. He was qualified, but signed to play in Europe next year.

You would also think 1-2 guys will be dealt before the season to get under the cap. That could also free up spots under the 50-man reserve limit.

I'd have no issue with signing him to an ELC if it's possible to do so (no idea what the rule is with undrafted guys). Very low risk and it's not like the Pens have a ton of skilled forwards in their system.

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08-01-2013, 11:13 AM
  #644
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Originally Posted by netwolf View Post
Pens have 49 contracts and the max is 50. 99.999% chance Maatta/Pouliot will slide to next year. Riley Holzapfel is among the 49, but I'm not sure if he counts. He was qualified, but signed to play in Europe next year.

You would also think 1-2 guys will be dealt before the season to get under the cap. That could also free up spots under the 50-man reserve limit.

I'd have no issue with signing him to an ELC if it's possible to do so (no idea what the rule is with undrafted guys). Very low risk and it's not like the Pens have a ton of skilled forwards in their system.
I can't imagine Holzapfel counts as he's not under contract. Looks like Dea has a decent shot at a contract though Pens need forwards for that rookie tournament if they're going to ice a complete roster.

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08-01-2013, 11:57 AM
  #645
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The 50 player limit is specific to NHL contracts of all types. There is also a reserve list for rights owned, but not under contract.

As far as Dea, he could easily earn an AHL contract as a show-me. Based on his performance under that contract, the Pens could then sign him to a full fledged NHL deal. Of course, any NHL team could sign him - AHL contracts have no NHL affiliation.

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08-01-2013, 02:55 PM
  #646
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Originally Posted by netwolf View Post
Pens have 49 contracts and the max is 50. 99.999% chance Maatta/Pouliot will slide to next year. Riley Holzapfel is among the 49, but I'm not sure if he counts. He was qualified, but signed to play in Europe next year.

You would also think 1-2 guys will be dealt before the season to get under the cap. That could also free up spots under the 50-man reserve limit.

I'd have no issue with signing him to an ELC if it's possible to do so (no idea what the rule is with undrafted guys). Very low risk and it's not like the Pens have a ton of skilled forwards in their system.
Holzapfel was given a qualifying offer, but he never signed a contract. As such, I would assume that he would not count against the contract limit.

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08-01-2013, 02:59 PM
  #647
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The 50 player limit is specific to NHL contracts of all types. There is also a reserve list for rights owned, but not under contract.

As far as Dea, he could easily earn an AHL contract as a show-me. Based on his performance under that contract, the Pens could then sign him to a full fledged NHL deal. Of course, any NHL team could sign him - AHL contracts have no NHL affiliation.
Dea's too young to sign an AHL contract.

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08-01-2013, 09:54 PM
  #648
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Dea's too young to sign an AHL contract.
Yes he's a year short of AHL eligibility. The Pens can only sign him to a 3 year ELC then send him back to Quebec, and the contract will slide 1 year. By my count we're at 46 'active' contracts right now (48 players signed minus the sliding Pouliot and Määttä; Holzapfel never signed his QO so doesn't come into play) so we're good.

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08-02-2013, 09:36 AM
  #649
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I'd sign him, it's not like we couldn't use the depth.

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08-03-2013, 07:24 PM
  #650
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Big fan of Dea... Surprised he went undrafted.

With our lack of skilled forward spects I think he's worth a gamble. He needs at least two years of bulking up before he's even moderately close to making it. Last I saw he was 160lbs... He could put on 20-25 in the next couple years. Dominate the Q and a full year in WB/S could do the kid some good.

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