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07-31-2013, 12:43 PM
  #301
Shady Machine
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Originally Posted by OnMyOwn View Post
For some reason I'm not thinking Portland can support an nhl team.
Based on what? They have the population, the TrailBlazers draw really well (top 4 in attendance the past 4 seasons from a basic search), and the city continues to grow.

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07-31-2013, 12:46 PM
  #302
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I don't think Portland will happen simply because having two franchises that close might result in some cannibalization. I don't know that there are enough hockey fans in Oregon and Washington state to support two NHL franchises. Vancouver already has some of those people and they're not all going to jump ship so...

...and KC obviously has the facilities and at one time had the interest. Not sure if they still do. There really needs to be another team in the central part of the country to even out the divisions. Another team out east should not be added until two new teams already exist in the western and central regions, and an extra western or central team is added at the same time as Quebec City / Markham / whoever it ends up being. Perhaps one of Florida or Tampa will be relocated rather than creating a 4th expansion franchise. Only so much talent to go around.
The distance between Portland and Seattle is nearly the same as the distance between Pittsburgh and Columbus. What evidence do you have that there is more likely to be cannibalization in the Pacific Northwest over the midwest?

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07-31-2013, 12:49 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
The distance between Portland and Seattle is nearly the same as the distance between Pittsburgh and Columbus.
It's the population that matters more than distance. Not saying impossible but something to consider. Either way I'd still prefer to see KC or OKC or one of those places get a team, if they can support one. Portland wouldn't be a bad second option though. Could create a true NW division.

Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, EDM, Calgary +?

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07-31-2013, 12:55 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
It's the population that matters more than distance. Not saying impossible but something to consider. Either way I'd still prefer to see KC or OKC or one of those places get a team, if they can support one. Portland wouldn't be a bad second option though. Could create a true NW division.

Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, EDM, Calgary +?
Okay but the population of Portland is greater than Pittburgh and population of Seattle is greater than Pittsburgh and Columbus.

My general point is other than tradition of the sport there is no reason that both cities couldn't be thriving markets for hockey. Pittsburgh, Columbus, Buffalo, Detroit are all very close and 3 of the 4 are cities aren't really growing. Yet it works and the proximity to other teams actually helps. Obviously there is a tradition for pro hockey, but I don't see a reason why that couldn't happen in Portland and Seattle.

IMO, other than the Sprint Center looking sweet, I don't see one reason why anyone in the NHL offices would choose Kansas City over Portland.

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07-31-2013, 01:10 PM
  #305
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Seattle and Portland would have an instant rivalry that would probably help both teams.

Portland also had a pro team in the 1910s and 1920s, the elegantly named Rosebuds.

Winterhawks attendance has risen steadily the past several years, too. They draw better than the Seattle Thunderbirds. Who play in a much smaller arena outside the city proper, but still.


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07-31-2013, 01:17 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by BrunoPuntzJones View Post
Seattle and Portland would have an instant rivalry that would probably help both teams.

Portland also had a pro team in the 1910s and 1920s, the elegantly named Rosebuds.
Pat Kane's great-uncle was a huge fan. intrepid chap named Charlie Kane.

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07-31-2013, 01:20 PM
  #307
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Pat Kane's great-uncle was a huge fan. intrepid boy by the name of Charlie Kane.
They should retain the name if they get a new team. Play the clip of Kane whispering "rosebud" just before pumping jock jams into the arena.

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07-31-2013, 01:23 PM
  #308
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They have a pretty modern NHL size arena, too. I like the idea of Portland a lot. Add them right alongside Seattle and kick Arizona to the Central.

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07-31-2013, 01:50 PM
  #309
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Yup Portland actually makes a lot of sense IMO. If they had an ownership group, they could be first to expand over Seattle due to having an arena.

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07-31-2013, 02:20 PM
  #310
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Portland and Seattle or Seattle and Kansas/Houston would be my guesses.

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07-31-2013, 02:31 PM
  #311
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Portland and Seattle or Seattle and Kansas/Houston would be my guesses.
Don't see Houston happening. I can't remember all the details but their AHL team was basically forced out by arena issues.

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07-31-2013, 06:21 PM
  #312
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Portland and Seattle would be awesome. There's already a city rivalry between those place. Put them in a division with Vancouver and the "Battle of Interstate 5" would be great

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08-01-2013, 09:29 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Okay but the population of Portland is greater than Pittburgh and population of Seattle is greater than Pittsburgh and Columbus.

My general point is other than tradition of the sport there is no reason that both cities couldn't be thriving markets for hockey. Pittsburgh, Columbus, Buffalo, Detroit are all very close and 3 of the 4 are cities aren't really growing. Yet it works and the proximity to other teams actually helps. Obviously there is a tradition for pro hockey, but I don't see a reason why that couldn't happen in Portland and Seattle.

IMO, other than the Sprint Center looking sweet, I don't see one reason why anyone in the NHL offices would choose Kansas City over Portland.
Fair points. I do think KC fans would strongly support a hockey team, and it would help fill out the central region in the next re-alignment. My point wasn't that Seattle and Portland don't have the people relative to Pittsburgh and Columbus. More like a lot of Vancouver fans in that area I imagine, and not sure how many will automagically switch allegiances. But on paper, it's hard to beat Seattle and Portland as "the next hockey towns that need a team".


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Seattle and Portland would have an instant rivalry that would probably help both teams.

Winterhawks attendance has risen steadily the past several years, too.
How big is that arena (Winterhawks)? AHL arenas vary widely in terms of capacity. Example: Rockford and Chicago are both AHL franchises outside Chicago, and can be supported because of the huge amounts of sprawl and roughly 10 million people in the metro area... but Rockford's arena holds fewer than 6,000 people for hockey games (I think they do well most games because they're Chicago's AHL affiliate -- otherwise I doubt they would). The Allstate Arena is about 16,800 for hockey. They regularly sell out or come close, but that is the core hockey market in Chicago. Blue collar types who don't want to pay more than $30 or $40 for a ticket. They were big before the Blackhawks were big, even though they were Atlanta's, then Vancouver's (now I'm not sure) farm team.

Point being that "they sell out all the time" can mean very different things WRT to "how big the local market is". And also that it can be a function of ticket prices, relative to how expensive everything else in the city is. Both Seattle and Portland are fairly expensive places to live I think but less blue collar than Chicago I imagine (on balance).


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08-01-2013, 09:54 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Fair points. I do think KC fans would strongly support a hockey team, and it would help fill out the central region in the next re-alignment. My point wasn't that Seattle and Portland don't have the people relative to Pittsburgh and Columbus. More like a lot of Vancouver fans in that area I imagine, and not sure how many will automagically switch allegiances. But on paper, it's hard to beat Seattle and Portland as "the next hockey towns that need a team".
Yeah I'm certainly not against a Kansas City team, I just think Portland and Seattle work better. You made a point about distance and I countered with fact. Then you said "it's not about distance but population" so I countered with facts about the population and now you say your point wasn't about population. Not trying to be a dick, but you keep changing the goal posts.

Seattle MSA has over 4mil people and is the 15th largest in the country. Portland MSA has 2.3mil and is 24th largest in the country (it's actually slightly less than Pittsburgh but the city itself has a significantly higher population). Meanwhile, Kansas City MSA is ranked 30th. I'm not arguing that greater population means it is a better market, just that they should be positively correlated. Also, I think there are certainly enough people in each of the three markets (Vancouver, Seattle, Portland) and enough distance between them to support 3 teams.

If Seattle is a good enough market in itself, then Portland should be as well. I can't imagine THAT many Portlanders are die hard fans of a team that's 313 miles away (roughly the same distance as Pittsburgh and Philly). Each of these cities are distinct markets. I don't know how you see it otherwise. Anyway, that's of course just my opinion.

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08-01-2013, 11:12 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
How big is that arena (Winterhawks)? AHL arenas vary widely in terms of capacity. Example: Rockford and Chicago are both AHL franchises outside Chicago, and can be supported because of the huge amounts of sprawl and roughly 10 million people in the metro area... but Rockford's arena holds fewer than 6,000 people for hockey games (I think they do well most games because they're Chicago's AHL affiliate -- otherwise I doubt they would). The Allstate Arena is about 16,800 for hockey. They regularly sell out or come close, but that is the core hockey market in Chicago. Blue collar types who don't want to pay more than $30 or $40 for a ticket. They were big before the Blackhawks were big, even though they were Atlanta's, then Vancouver's (now I'm not sure) farm team.

Point being that "they sell out all the time" can mean very different things WRT to "how big the local market is". And also that it can be a function of ticket prices, relative to how expensive everything else in the city is. Both Seattle and Portland are fairly expensive places to live I think but less blue collar than Chicago I imagine (on balance).
The Winterhawks mostly play in the Memorial Coliseum which seats around 12k. They play some games in the Blazer's Rose Garden, which seats 18k. The Thunderbirds' arena is around 6.5k. I don't know if they ever play at KeyArena these days but that has 15k seats in its notoriously poor hockey configuration.

Neither team comes close to averaging a sell out, but Seattle fills a larger percentage of their seats, while Portland attracts more people overall. I'd say both do pretty well for junior.

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08-01-2013, 06:54 PM
  #316
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Jeremy Rutherford ‏@jprutherford 2m
#stlblues announce 5-yr, $27 mill extension for Bouwmeester. Starts un 2014-15, so he's under contract for 6 yrs.
https://twitter.com/jprutherford/sta...84511271485440

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08-02-2013, 08:55 AM
  #317
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Wow that dude did it again. At least this contract is more reasonable. Makin bank though.

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08-02-2013, 09:55 AM
  #318
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I'd say that's a reasonable deal for a 29 year old JBo. If he had gone in the 6 year, 7M territory (which is what some teams would've given him), it would've been pretty bad. Both the term and amount here seem fair.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=428952

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08-02-2013, 10:06 AM
  #319
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...Not trying to be a dick, but you keep changing the goal posts....

Seattle MSA has over 4mil people and is the 15th largest in the country. Portland MSA has 2.3mil and is 24th largest in the country (it's actually slightly less than Pittsburgh but the city itself has a significantly higher population). Meanwhile, Kansas City MSA is ranked 30th. I'm not arguing that greater population means it is a better market, just that they should be positively correlated. Also, I think there are certainly enough people in each of the three markets (Vancouver, Seattle, Portland) and enough distance between them to support 3 teams.

If Seattle is a good enough market in itself, then Portland should be as well. I can't imagine THAT many Portlanders are die hard fans of a team that's 313 miles away (roughly the same distance as Pittsburgh and Philly). Each of these cities are distinct markets. I don't know how you see it otherwise. Anyway, that's of course just my opinion.

You DICK!




Kidding. Not trying to move goalposts. Your geographical analog is fair, I'm just wondering what percentage of "I'll pay NHL ticket price" fans in that "NW corner" are already hard-core Canuck fans and not likely to change. IE people who might otherwise be regular supporters of their most local team (not casual supporters the way I am a casual supporter of the Blackhawks when I go to a game every couple years or watch them on TV a few times a year) . Note that wondering is not the same as asserting. I don't know, but I have my doubts given how long Vancouver has been the only game in that region.

But I don't deny the population is large enough in both towns (generally) or that the area is a hockey area (generally). They are and it is. But in context the numbers may not be sufficient to support all 3 teams. Also, Columbus is a true captive audience. They have nothing else going there other than OSU football, so that's one major difference why that franchise should succeed.

KC is sort of in the same boat. Their baseball team seems to perennially suck, so their version of OSU is the KC Chiefs, but they don't have much aside from that. Anyway, my preference is mostly one of alignment logic. I wouldn't have a problem if it ended up being Portland and Seattle. Both good towns for hockey. Better by far than PHX, TB, FLA.


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Originally Posted by BrunoPuntzJones View Post
The Winterhawks mostly play in the Memorial Coliseum which seats around 12k. They play some games in the Blazer's Rose Garden, which seats 18k. The Thunderbirds' arena is around 6.5k. I don't know if they ever play at KeyArena these days but that has 15k seats in its notoriously poor hockey configuration.

Neither team comes close to averaging a sell out, but Seattle fills a larger percentage of their seats, while Portland attracts more people overall. I'd say both do pretty well for junior.
That is somewhat telling IMO. Especially for Portland which is a very good team. Not sure what the closest AHL franchise is (Abbottsford?) but doubt it would make a difference AFA what we're talking about (butts in NHL-priced seats). [Edit - in other words, if the winterhawks were an AHL team, not sure it would matter AFA those sellouts.]


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08-02-2013, 10:11 AM
  #320
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you have so much random hate for the Florida teams

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08-02-2013, 10:17 AM
  #321
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Fair responce CV. I take issue though with your assertion that the Jackets or the fictitious KC team would be only game in town. KC has an NFL and MLB team. Portland only has NBA and Seattle only has NFL. Sure there is soccer and other college teams, but not to the level of OSU football. Point being, I don't see much validity to the "only game in town" being a benefit for KC over Portland. But yeah, I don't know if there is enough hardcore hockey fans to support an NHL team in Portland. I also don't know that about Kansas City or many other markets where teams currently exist.

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08-02-2013, 10:18 AM
  #322
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you have so much random hate for the Florida teams
It only seems random to you because you probably don't read my comments all the way through in those discussions. I don't hate the teams, just the fact that Bettman was short-sighted enough to put them there. Same with ATL. But I don't want to derail the thread.

Seattle getting a team is a legit thing to talk about here because it's actual news / in the hockey news right now apparently (maybe I should re-title the thread now as there was some confusion there -- the old "around the NHL" thread sort of became the FA thread and then it just kept going). Florida deserving two teams or not, is not because they're not going anywhere for the time being.

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08-02-2013, 10:20 AM
  #323
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Fair responce CV. I take issue though with your assertion that the Jackets or the fictitious KC team would be only game in town. KC has an NFL and MLB team. Portland only has NBA and Seattle only has NFL. Sure there is soccer and other college teams, but not to the level of OSU football. Point being, I don't see much validity to the "only game in town" being a benefit for KC over Portland. But yeah, I don't know if there is enough hardcore hockey fans to support an NHL team in Portland. I also don't know that about Kansas City or many other markets where teams currently exist.
Fair enough.

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08-02-2013, 10:26 AM
  #324
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It only seems random to you because you probably don't read my comments all the way through in those discussions. I don't hate the teams, just the fact that Bettman was short-sighted enough to put them there. Same with ATL. But I don't want to derail the thread.
we've had extended discussions on the topic. I've read your comments. I have always disagreed with them.

As far as Portland and KC goes, I have no idea. Both work well enough with alignment, though KC is better in that regard. The best thing with Portland, imo, is that adding them and Seattle at the same time would really build up a LOT of hype in the area and start them off with a great rivalry right out of the gate. Hopefully the NHL has some idea about your question of Vancouver fans already in the area. It doesn't seem like it would be that many to me, its 5 hours away. But I'm really not sure.


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08-02-2013, 10:35 AM
  #325
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Yah I don't know if there is any talk of or plans to launch two teams at once in those two towns but that would be a pretty cool thing if they could swing it. I know of at least two that need to be relocated.

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