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Old
08-01-2013, 02:54 PM
  #76
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Some Devils fan is going to photoshop a retainer onto him now.
We should beat them to the punch so it's not original!

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08-01-2013, 03:13 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Really not thrilled with the idea of having a 35, 36, 37-year-old goalie with a $9m cap hit. I know the the cap is expected to rise, but that's still a huge chunk of the team's cap space. The guy plays 65+ games a year. Plus playoffs. Plus Olympics and probably a future World Cup or two. He's putting a lot of miles on those knees. How many elite years does he have left in the tank?
Astute, as usual Crease.

The knees are what I'd be most concerned about down the road.
He has the skill to offset up to a point that he'll get slower.

I think he stays the King for about 4 years = elite.
Then 2 years, still outstanding, but a peg down.
After that it is a crapshoot, but his game likely won't completely deteriorate.

After 5 years, expect a little more Villemure and a touch less Richter, but the results will remain outstandingly high.

3 years like 9
2 years like 8
1 yr 6
2 yrs 5
as a favor to us cause he likes the team.

With bonuses in case he plays like he's 27 when he's actually 37.


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08-01-2013, 03:34 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Really not thrilled with the idea of having a 35, 36, 37-year-old goalie with a $9m cap hit. I know the the cap is expected to rise, but that's still a huge chunk of the team's cap space. The guy plays 65+ games a year. Plus playoffs. Plus Olympics and probably a future World Cup or two. He's putting a lot of miles on those knees. How many elite years does he have left in the tank?
Excellent points!

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08-01-2013, 03:47 PM
  #79
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In retrospect, I'm surprised people weren't more enthusiastic about Henrik's progress before he came to the NHL. By the time Montoya was drafted 6th overall, Lundqvist had won just about everything the SEL had at a very young age. He probably could have been goaltending in the NHL proficiently by age 20 rather than 23.
If you look back I had been pimping Lundqvist out 2 years before he came over.

his numbers were un-real an the composure he showed in the (admittedly biased vide clips) were mature well beyond his years.

Now, I'm not saying I knew it all along. I got lucky that his style was able to translate as well as it has to the NA game, but I knew he was going to be a very good goalie. Just not this good.

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08-01-2013, 03:48 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Punxrocknyc19 View Post
does anyone know why Lundqvist wasnt highly regarded during his draft year?? i know players slip due to size, mental issues, attitude problems, lack of natural talent, and a lot of other things... does anyone remember 2000 draft and what was said about Lundqbist before drafted.. it still makes me wonder why he was drafted in the 7th round.
I remember this well.

Sweden had never really developed goalies (Lindberg, Söderberg and Salo).

Lundqvist did not have a good WJCs.

Lundqvist had played almost the entire year in the juniors.

Rockstrom says that he saw several games with Hank in the junior league and Hank basically never gave up a goal there.

Hank being drafted late is an example of a player being a bit of a late bloomer. If the draft is held at 19, he is a 3rd round pick. If the draft is held a 20, he is a first rounder.

For those who don't remember, he was about as much of a lock a player can be before coming over. I am not the biggest positive guy when it comes to prospect, but I called Hank a lock to be a Vezina finalist at least once during his career before he played a single game in the NHL. And that was called for.

I think the Hank-reason for a steal is by far the most common one. Most steals, if you are given one, or sometimes two, year's hindsight it's really easy to see that a player should have been drafted much higher. Zetterberg is another example like Hank. Great in the WJCs after just getting drafted. Bergeron, he went in a great draft but who wouldn't have picked him high after seing him one more year? Marian Hossa is a top 3 pick if teams gets to see 6 months of him the year after he was drafted. Marc Staal jumps into the top 3-5 instantly if teams got to see him 6 more months.

It's just that so many kids aren't ready at all when they are 18. Hockey is a complex sport and many aren't there before they are 20.

Also a big reason for why many in the 4-10 range busts. After the have-it-alls, you end up drafting the early bloomers instead of the best players. A kid like Rotislav Olez comes to mind. He is a man at the time he was drafted, had done it all. But I remember how he looked and I remember thinking that sure, he is one of the best 18 y/o's among his peers, but he really didn't have that many elite abilities and he had limitations. It wasn't the best draft, but he went 7th overall which is high for a kid who really didn't have much upside...

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08-01-2013, 03:53 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
For those who don't remember, he was about as much of a lock a player can be before coming over..
What timeframe are we talking about here? Because its quite clear Rangers management didnt feel the same way a year before Lundqvist was playing for the the team. If they had, Al Montoya would not have been their 6th overall in the 2004 draft.

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08-01-2013, 03:57 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Punxrocknyc19 View Post
does anyone know why Lundqvist wasnt highly regarded during his draft year?? i know players slip due to size, mental issues, attitude problems, lack of natural talent, and a lot of other things... does anyone remember 2000 draft and what was said about Lundqbist before drafted.. it still makes me wonder why he was drafted in the 7th round.
prior to his draft, he had a total of 69 games played for his Junior team in Sweden.

No one tracked his save % in 98-99, but he had a 2.75 GAA that year in 40 games

It wasn't until 2001-02 that he made Frolunda's top team. He played 20 games, medicore stats. The following year is when he took over

2002-03 - 28 Reg. Season games, 1.45gaa and a .948 save percentage. 12 PO games, 2.21 and a 9.31

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08-01-2013, 04:00 PM
  #83
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take a look at his progression

great site

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=286

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08-01-2013, 04:02 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Really not thrilled with the idea of having a 35, 36, 37-year-old goalie with a $9m cap hit. I know the the cap is expected to rise, but that's still a huge chunk of the team's cap space. The guy plays 65+ games a year. Plus playoffs. Plus Olympics and probably a future World Cup or two. He's putting a lot of miles on those knees. How many elite years does he have left in the tank?
You have to worry about the hips as well.

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Prof. Gordon Bell, director of the Sport and Health Assessment Centre at the University of Alberta, has the supporting stats. A study he led into the frequency and type of movements of NHL goalies across two seasons (2003-04 and 2005-06) found that all goalies have adopted the butterfly to some degree. On average, goalies assumed the “full butterfly” — both pads flat and flared on the ice, like wings, with the goalie stick in the five hole — 11-12 times a period.

[...]

Arrived are the days of contortionist strains on hips, groins and knees that could foreshadow hobbled goalies in retirement in need of replacement surgery.

“Playing the butterfly clearly puts a goaltender at increased risk for hip labrum issues and medial ligaments on the knees, just because of the nature of the position you get into,” says former Leafs goalie coach Steve McKichan. (The labrum is the cartilage ring that hugs the rim of the hip socket.) “Imagine yourself right now working on a full set of splits at the gym and all of a sudden somebody accidentally falls on you or just bumps you slightly.”
http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/...to_injury.html

Another goalie, Liam Herbst, hurt his hips from the butterfly.

Quote:
Such have been the ravages of the up-down grind of the butterfly style on his 6-foot-3 body. This past summer Liam underwent microfracture surgery to both knees, a procedure to stimulate the growth of new cartilage more commonly associated with mid- to late-career basketball pros closer to twice his age.

This month Liam had another surgery to repair damage in his right hip and another on his left knee. In the coming weeks it’s expected he’ll be encouraged by doctors to submit to operations on his left hip and right knee.

“It’s pretty significant damage to his knees and hips,” said Mark Guy, Liam’s agent. “What I’ve been told by the doctors is they believe there’s a chance they can fix it, and he’ll have a chance to come back and play.”

The injuries Liam has endured, while not often seen in teenagers, aren’t uncommon among goaltenders who play the dominant butterfly style. The scars of hip surgery, once associated with aging blue hairs, have become common among the young men who patrol blue ice. Four years ago, Sports Illustrated pronounced the problem an NHL “epidemic.”
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...y_feschuk.html

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08-01-2013, 06:04 PM
  #85
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I seriously have to stay away from the main boards...

a trade proposal of

RNH and Petry to Leafs
Stepan and Del Zotto to Oilers
Kadri and Gardiner to Rangers

is thought to be great value for all.

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08-01-2013, 07:50 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
I seriously have to stay away from the main boards...

a trade proposal of

RNH and Petry to Leafs
Stepan and Del Zotto to Oilers
Kadri and Gardiner to Rangers

is thought to be great value for all.
Since you mentioned the main boards and Lundqvist is already being discussed, one of my biggest issues with that place is the growing notion that Lundqvist doesn't have that much natural talent/skill. Probably a combination of him playing deep in the crease and mediocre/average puck handling abilities. Oh and six goalie system

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08-01-2013, 09:27 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by 3rdlineglory View Post
Since you mentioned the main boards and Lundqvist is already being discussed, one of my biggest issues with that place is the growing notion that Lundqvist doesn't have that much natural talent/skill. Probably a combination of him playing deep in the crease and mediocre/average puck handling abilities. Oh and six goalie system
Jealousy is the word you're looking for here

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08-01-2013, 09:35 PM
  #88
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Lundqvist is one of the most positionally sound goalies the league has ever seen. That's why most of his saves aren't flashy. The times he does have to scramble he shows exceptional athleticism. He's got as much talent between the pipes as the main board jokers have the talent to brew up nonsense.


Last edited by Barbara Underhill: 08-01-2013 at 09:41 PM.
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08-01-2013, 10:38 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Really not thrilled with the idea of having a 35, 36, 37-year-old goalie with a $9m cap hit. I know the the cap is expected to rise, but that's still a huge chunk of the team's cap space. The guy plays 65+ games a year. Plus playoffs. Plus Olympics and probably a future World Cup or two. He's putting a lot of miles on those knees. How many elite years does he have left in the tank?
Can you answer your own question? It seems to me the answer is important to the prior points you made. But you leave it hanging out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Someone will pay Lundqvist that kind of money. I guess I'm just frustrated that the Rangers have put themselves in a position (read: zero goaltending depth) that they are going to have to make a 30-year-old goalie the highest paid at his position for 7+ years. I firmly believe Lundqvist's best days are behind him. In a vacuum, 7x9 is not a good contract considering his age, but the Rangers hands are tied here.
There is a long list of goalies that have performed at elite level well into their mid 30's or even their late 30's. what do you base the bolded on?

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I'm not saying he absolutely won't be good in his mid-to-late 30s. I just don't think it's a good idea to commit that kind of money to him now for those years. If a goalie loses his game, you can't bury him in the lineup. I'd much rather give him a 4 year deal with a higher cap hit and then re-sign him again at 34 after re-evaluating where the franchise is and where he is health-wise. This is of course in a world where Lundqvist would be okay with a bridge contract.
If, as you say the Rangers "hands are tied", and if you think he is the Rangers best player currently, how do you think this "best player" feels when you are not showing him the respect he deserves? Hanks and his agents are not idiots, they'd like to get the best deal possible, if not from the Rangers, they can get it from someone else. Given the way he feels about the org and the city, he may give the team a home discount, but this is no way to get there.

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25 times. But 17 goalies had 30 wins in 2011-12. Should we be okay with committing one of the highest cap hits to a goalie doing what passes as average?
How do you know he will be average? All he has done so far is prove he is anything but average.

I infer from the above posts that you are firmly in the camp to trade hank and start over again. There is nothing wrong with it and has been discussed many times.
i am in the other camp, when you have the best goalie in the world, he has carried the team so far, and the team has no heir apparent, you lock him up for as long as you can.
I just hope the Rangers do not show this hesitation to commit to the best goalie in the world. There will be a long line of teams that will show the appropriate amount of respect to Hank when it's time.

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08-02-2013, 08:55 AM
  #90
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Can you answer your own question? It seems to me the answer is important to the prior points you made. But you leave it hanging out there.
I think beyond the age of 35 we shouldn't expect him to be elite. Sure he could be. I just think the odds are against it.


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There is a long list of goalies that have performed at elite level well into their mid 30's or even their late 30's. what do you base the bolded on?
The mid 30's I'm not terribly concerned with. But a seven year extension takes him to 39. 39! You can name on one hand the goalies who at the age of 36+ played 60 games with a .910 SV%: Brodeur, Hasek, Roy, Belfour and Roloson. Only Roloson did it past the age of 37.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
If, as you say the Rangers "hands are tied", and if you think he is the Rangers best player currently, how do you think this "best player" feels when you are not showing him the respect he deserves? Hanks and his agents are not idiots, they'd like to get the best deal possible, if not from the Rangers, they can get it from someone else. Given the way he feels about the org and the city, he may give the team a home discount, but this is no way to get there.
I have this romantic notion that players should be given contracts based on expected future production, not realized past production. I know it's not practical in the real world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
How do you know he will be average? All he has done so far is prove he is anything but average.
He has above-average skill but that doesn't necessarily mean he will have above-average longevity. When his body wants to begin breaking down, it's going to begin breaking down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
I infer from the above posts that you are firmly in the camp to trade hank and start over again. There is nothing wrong with it and has been discussed many times. i am in the other camp, when you have the best goalie in the world, he has carried the team so far, and the team has no heir apparent, you lock him up for as long as you can. I just hope the Rangers do not show this hesitation to commit to the best goalie in the world. There will be a long line of teams that will show the appropriate amount of respect to Hank when it's time.
I want Lundqvist to be a career Ranger. I just don't want the organization to commit tomorrow a large cap hit for a period of time six, seven, eight years from now, when he's going to be north of 35. In my perfect world, they offer him a three year extension for elite money, then re-evaluate where the team is and where he is health-wise. If he wants seven or eight years of guaranteed money, he should take a discount for it , no? But then again, some GM out there is going to offer him the moon, and he knows it. And the Rangers have zero backup options. so their hands are tied, as I said before. They're going to offer him a retirement contract. I'm just not going to be thrilled about it.


Last edited by Crease: 08-02-2013 at 10:48 AM.
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08-02-2013, 09:00 AM
  #91
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What timeframe are we talking about here? Because its quite clear Rangers management didnt feel the same way a year before Lundqvist was playing for the the team. If they had, Al Montoya would not have been their 6th overall in the 2004 draft.
He was a very up and coming prospect when we drafted Montoya. Just had one good year in te SEL, but not much before that.

After the lockout year, it was safe to consider him a lock.

I am sure we liked him a lot when we drafte Montoya. But as Maloney put it, we wanted a goalie and we went out and made sure we got one.

Was even Blackburn completely out of the picture?

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08-02-2013, 12:18 PM
  #92
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And there you go... RT @mayorNHL CONFIRMED: LA Kings have new deal in place with Kyle Clifford http://t.co/ZpQ5hS3nhS

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08-02-2013, 12:33 PM
  #93
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Someday the Rangers will develop their own tough-as-nails forward who isn't a total liability on the ice or nothing more than a glorified stage fighter. Someday..

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08-02-2013, 01:13 PM
  #94
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Someday the Rangers will develop their own tough-as-nails forward who isn't a total liability on the ice or nothing more than a glorified stage fighter. Someday..
Probably never.......

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08-02-2013, 01:15 PM
  #95
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I'd rather develop a 40 goal scorer.

Just me, though.

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08-02-2013, 01:21 PM
  #96
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Probably never.......
Agreed.

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08-02-2013, 01:25 PM
  #97
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I'd rather develop a 40 goal scorer.

Just me, though.
Don't hold your breath on the Rangers ever developing and elite forward again.

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08-02-2013, 02:40 PM
  #98
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Someday the Rangers will develop their own tough-as-nails forward who isn't a total liability on the ice or nothing more than a glorified stage fighter. Someday..
Cue music:

"... someday will never be the same ..."


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08-02-2013, 02:51 PM
  #99
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Don't hold your breath on the Rangers ever developing and elite forward again.
and why is that?

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08-02-2013, 02:54 PM
  #100
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and why is that?
http://www.hyperventilation.info/pho...hp?2,1960,1960

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