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Do Habs fans think that Bergevin is going to ice this roster ?

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Old
08-02-2013, 03:16 PM
  #51
sandysan
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
We made a lot of goals in a shortended season. In a full season, who knows if we'll maintain it. We ended our regular season in terrible fashion and our playoffs resulted in lack of offense and breakdowns defensively. Improve our D? sure. But back up offensive ability isn't something we don't need. We got by for half a season, not a full one.

We got our ass handed to us by Ottawa because we couldn't score. At end of the day, people won't mind jumping others or doing whatever because they are in the lead and can afford a penalty.

FWIW, during that brawl, it wasn't DD, gionta and small guys on the ice.

White, Tinordi, Boullion(small but strong fighter for his size), Moen, Armstrong(not tough but has fought).

End of the day, 4 of those guys aren't shy to fighting and we lost the fights. That simple. Hendricks would've done what exactly?
if we are counting on bouillion, a guy right out of the A whos got the baptism by fire, a guy who only does the spinarama, a lower tier middleweight and armstrong ( I cant even seem to think of a good descriptor for him) we are in for a world of hurt against pretty much every team in the league.

This isnt the leafs, bruins, hawks, blues or kings. It was by one of the softest teams in the league that handed us our hats. That by definition makes us even softer than they are. Had we actually gotten by the sens, I cant even imagine the beating our team would have taken in round two. anyone who watched the ottawa series and didnt come away from it that we are WAY too small and WAYYY to soft, wasnt watching.

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08-02-2013, 03:17 PM
  #52
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we have a great young core with tons of solid prospects.

If we didn't have the pieces then I'd be worried.

Definitely can't compare where we are now with us in '07. The prospects/young players we have now are WAY better then those 6 years ago. Plus we have like twice as many.

The top 9 is way too small but Gionta will be gone next year (if not sooner) and maybe DD can put together a tradeable season.

Hell, just losing Gio and replacing him even with an average sized player would be a huge plus.

I'm all about the long term.

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08-02-2013, 03:21 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by dackelljuneaubulis02 View Post
we have a great young core with tons of solid prospects.

If we didn't have the pieces then I'd be worried.

Definitely can't compare where we are now with us in '07. The prospects/young players we have now are WAY better then those 6 years ago. Plus we have like twice as many.

The top 9 is way too small but Gionta will be gone next year (if not sooner) and maybe DD can put together a tradeable season.

Hell, just losing Gio and replacing him even with an average sized player would be a huge plus.

I'm all about the long term.
Seeing how we added Briere this offseason, just moving Gointa will bring is to the same quota we had this past season...

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08-02-2013, 03:22 PM
  #54
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give him a chance to do what ? Grow 8 inches ? I'm not knocking Briere, he might have something left in the tank but what he brings WE DONT NEED and importantly what we NEED he CANNOT bring.

if on the path towards what the teams has said it will do, standing pat is a hell of a lot better than moving backwards. Saying that we are not hobbled long term by a bad move is not a virtue in my books. its far better to simply not make the bad move in the first place.
With similar core we finished last in the east. We had a good half a season then broke down. Suddenly, we don't need goals anymore.

Give briere a chance to help us win games.

The way I learnt hockey is the teams with most goals at end of the game wins. Not the team with the best fighters. Does physicality, fighting, size and other factors help? ABSOLUTELY but directly quoting a fighting stat doesn't mean **** on the scoreboard.

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I actually think Briere is a good player and will put up good numbers, even tho I hate the guy, but I just don't think he is what the team needs, I mean you can't seriously think of going anywhere in the playoffs with 4 of your top 9 forwards being small, and not plek small at 5'11, this is midget small at 5'7 5'8. To go with an undersized Dcore as well
There's time to change the team. Like I said, I understand don't disagree, there needs to be a better balance. I will drooling over thought of VL coming in and being a big center in top 6. **** happens though, I wouldn't have signed briere personally.

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if we are counting on bouillion, a guy right out of the A whos got the baptism by fire, a guy who only does the spinarama, a lower tier middleweight and armstrong ( I cant even seem to think of a good descriptor for him) we are in for a world of hurt against pretty much every team in the league.

This isnt the leafs, bruins, hawks, blues or kings. It was by one of the softest teams in the league that handed us our hats. That by definition makes us even softer than they are. Had we actually gotten by the sens, I cant even imagine the beating our team would have taken in round two. anyone who watched the ottawa series and didnt come away from it that we are WAY too small and WAYYY to soft, wasnt watching.
We always beat the bruins though.

FWIW, where does Hendricks fit? A super heavyweight? I mean, white, boullion, tinordi, moen aren't weak guys. They have fought their fair share of fights and won. Are they super fighters? Nope. But even Hendricks wouldn't have done **** vs Cowen either. So whats your point? How would he have changed a thing?

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08-02-2013, 03:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by dackelljuneaubulis02 View Post
we have a great young core with tons of solid prospects.

If we didn't have the pieces then I'd be worried.

Definitely can't compare where we are now with us in '07. The prospects/young players we have now are WAY better then those 6 years ago. Plus we have like twice as many.

The top 9 is way too small but Gionta will be gone next year (if not sooner) and maybe DD can put together a tradeable season.

Hell, just losing Gio and replacing him even with an average sized player would be a huge plus.

I'm all about the long term.
Just a little thing. I hate when people say the Bold. Back in 2007 we were raving about our prospects, just like 2006, 2008, 2009, etc...

Every year "but now they are better!". Same ****. Only a certain amount make it or stay with us.

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08-02-2013, 03:24 PM
  #56
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I'd like to see another dman added. Preferably a RD (Franson), but given what's available a LD could still help (Hainsey, Martinez).

A bit off topic, but does anyone think there's truth to spec that Hainsey is being blackballed for being a prominent leader in the union during the lockout?

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Originally Posted by drakaar10iemechx2012 View Post
What do you think ? Is he really satisfied with this roster or will he a pull another trade before the season starts ?

I have troubles believing that Briere and the Greek are his only moves. Sounds almost Gaineyesque.
IMO the myth of Gainey conservatism comes from his personality. His actions as GM were actually bold and restless, overly so. We'd have been in a better position this last half decade if he'd been as conservative as his reputation.

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08-02-2013, 03:28 PM
  #57
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Morrow-to-Habs rumor is completely dead, or ... ?

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08-02-2013, 03:29 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
With similar core we finished last in the east. We had a good half a season then broke down. Suddenly, we don't need goals anymore.

Give briere a chance to help us win games.

The way I learnt hockey is the teams with most goals at end of the game wins. Not the team with the best fighters. Does physicality, fighting, size and other factors help? ABSOLUTELY but directly quoting a fighting stat doesn't mean **** on the scoreboard.



There's time to change the team. Like I said, I understand don't disagree, there needs to be a better balance. I will drooling over thought of VL coming in and being a big center in top 6. **** happens though, I wouldn't have signed briere personally.



We always beat the bruins though.

FWIW, where does Hendricks fit? A super heavyweight? I mean, white, boullion, tinordi, moen aren't weak guys. They have fought their fair share of fights and won. Are they super fighters? Nope. But even Hendricks wouldn't have done **** vs Cowen either. So whats your point? How would he have changed a thing?
in what world is hendricks a super heavyweight ? he's a guy who will go ( unlike moen and again if we are depending on cube to protect out little guys we are screwed)

I dont know what Hendricks would have done against Cowen, but he would have went. And hendricks was still under contract when the ottawa fiasco went down.

But after what happened, if you think that we have a team that is built for the playoffs, I dont see it. The senators handed us our hats. with that in mind the appropriate response would be to get bigger and tougher, not smaller and softer. the teams in our division are MUCH bigger and MUCH tougher than us.

I'm not saying that hendricks is a better player than Briere, but he would have been a much better fit to address a systemic need than shrimpy.

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08-02-2013, 03:30 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dackelljuneaubulis02 View Post
we have a great young core with tons of solid prospects.

If we didn't have the pieces then I'd be worried.

Definitely can't compare where we are now with us in '07. The prospects/young players we have now are WAY better then those 6 years ago. Plus we have like twice as many.

The top 9 is way too small but Gionta will be gone next year (if not sooner) and maybe DD can put together a tradeable season.

Hell, just losing Gio and replacing him even with an average sized player would be a huge plus.


I'm all about the long term.
Agreed. Gallagher has taken his spot on this team. Briere takes DD's. Now getting rid of Gio and DD is the hard part.
Who knows though, maybe Gallagher has a bad sophomore slump and we need Gio and his so unpredictable slap shot . Maybe DD has a good year again.. still, 4 players between 5'6 and 5'9 is too much. Two is plenty.

Unfortunately I truly feel like MB will let Gionta play out his contract here and give DD a full year to prove his contract wasn't a mistake.

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08-02-2013, 03:42 PM
  #60
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IMO the myth of Gainey conservatism comes from his personality. His actions as GM were actually bold and restless, overly so. We'd have been in a better position this last half decade if he'd been as conservative as his reputation.
I agree with this. Moves like the Gomez trade and the signings of Gionta and Cammalleri were big moves that focused on the present instead of the future. In the end they left us much worse off than we were before.

I'm glad to have a GM that's conservative and I believe that when we're actually ready to contend he won't be afraid to make big moves to put us over the top.

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08-02-2013, 03:46 PM
  #61
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in what world is hendricks a super heavyweight ? he's a guy who will go ( unlike moen and again if we are depending on cube to protect out little guys we are screwed)

I dont know what Hendricks would have done against Cowen, but he would have went. And hendricks was still under contract when the ottawa fiasco went down.

But after what happened, if you think that we have a team that is built for the playoffs, I dont see it. The senators handed us our hats. with that in mind the appropriate response would be to get bigger and tougher, not smaller and softer. the teams in our division are MUCH bigger and MUCH tougher than us.

I'm not saying that hendricks is a better player than Briere, but he would have been a much better fit to address a systemic need than shrimpy.
Well that's what I'm saying. Hendricks is just another marginal player, whats so special about him?

Senators won by scoring more goals. We had good chances but Anderson was solid. Maybe with a strong offensive player like briere he could help.

We owned the sens in puck possession most of the games but failed to capitalize. Size wasn't the issue whatsoever. Our inability to get it past Anderson was.

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08-02-2013, 03:58 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Well that's what I'm saying. Hendricks is just another marginal player, whats so special about him?

Senators won by scoring more goals. We had good chances but Anderson was solid. Maybe with a strong offensive player like briere he could help.

We owned the sens in puck possession most of the games but failed to capitalize. Size wasn't the issue whatsoever. Our inability to get it past Anderson was.
so your saying that we were not exposed as a soft small team last year ? and that hendricks would address this by making up bigger and tougher.

If you dont think we were exposed for the entire league to see us as a bunch of smurfs, you may be the only one.

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08-02-2013, 04:15 PM
  #63
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Morrow-to-Habs rumor is completely dead, or ... ?
Dead, but he has my offer on the table. If he reads this forum. C'mon Morrow, that's way better than Carolina or whoever will offer you.

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08-02-2013, 04:16 PM
  #64
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so your saying that we were not exposed as a soft small team last year ? and that hendricks would address this by making up bigger and tougher.

If you dont think we were exposed for the entire league to see us as a bunch of smurfs, you may be the only one.
I'm saying it's not why we lost the series. I'm also saying Hendricks wouldn't make a difference as he'd take up Parros' spot even if we didn't sign briere.

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08-02-2013, 04:22 PM
  #65
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so your saying that we were not exposed as a soft small team last year ? and that hendricks would address this by making up bigger and tougher.

If you dont think we were exposed for the entire league to see us as a bunch of smurfs, you may be the only one.
Seriously dude? Matt freaking Hendricks is what you're whining about? I rather have a guy like Briere who's a proven PO performer. I didn't want Briere signed, but if I have to chose between him and Hendricks, the answer is easy.

Habs fans have been so disappointed to see their guys tossed around over the past few years that they've lost all reasoning and would go as far as to want a 6' 200ish lbs 4th liner signed over a proven PO older performer. It's ridiculous.

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08-02-2013, 04:23 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Just a little thing. I hate when people say the Bold. Back in 2007 we were raving about our prospects, just like 2006, 2008, 2009, etc...

Every year "but now they are better!". Same ****. Only a certain amount make it or stay with us.
Agreed, except this time it is probably true. One of our youngsters just won the Norris, and not by fluke. We also have a #3 overall center that finally fits our needs. We've been raging about having a guy like MaxPac for a while now. So, this time around, I do feel our kids are better. We're not talking about Matt D'Agostini or Corey Locke her.

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08-02-2013, 04:24 PM
  #67
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Agreed, except this time it is probably true. One of our youngsters just won the Norris, and not by fluke. We also have a #3 overall center that finally fits our needs. We've been raging about having a guy like MaxPac for a while now. So, this time around, I do feel our kids are better. We're not talking about Matt D'Agostini or Corey Locke her.
If we talk prospects Galchenyuk and Subban aren't on the list. Young players? Sure, just not prospects.

You know we've read it before. "Prospect list so deep" ya ya.

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08-02-2013, 04:39 PM
  #68
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If we talk prospects Galchenyuk and Subban aren't on the list. Young players? Sure, just not prospects.

You know we've read it before. "Prospect list so deep" ya ya.
Ya I was talking about youngsters. Prospects are just that, prospects. I tend not to get overly excited about any of them until they reach the big league, unless there's an exception.
Hudon, Tinordi, Colberg, Beaulieu, Dietz, you name them, same story different names. I agree. I remember when people were excited about Conboy and some liked Torp, should I bring up Pavel ''the Tank? What about Maxwell and Trunev? Carle?

But I do believe our current prospects are closer to making it. Next year will be a very interesting season in Hamilton.

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08-02-2013, 04:41 PM
  #69
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Seriously dude? Matt freaking Hendricks is what you're whining about? I rather have a guy like Briere who's a proven PO performer. I didn't want Briere signed, but if I have to chose between him and Hendricks, the answer is easy.

Habs fans have been so disappointed to see their guys tossed around over the past few years that they've lost all reasoning and would go as far as to want a 6' 200ish lbs 4th liner signed over a proven PO older performer. It's ridiculous.
We need to get bigger and tougher, not smaller and softer. Nashville had no problem signing Hendricks, who would have addressed a persistent need. The answer to too small and too soft is not more small and soft players.

Briere is at the tail end of his career, and his last "production" was on a line with guys demonstrably bigger than what we have. For the money we spent for two years of shrimpy we could have gotten 4 years of a solid defensive forward, unafraid to go with most and more than willing to stand up for his teamates. Hendricks is much closer to Prust than Parros and he is surprisingly good at shootouts.

Were you against the prust signing ? Or should we have saved that money and signed Nathan Gerbe to make our midget forwards look bigger by comparison ? Can we sign verne troyer as well ?

And its not my opinion the team needs to get bigger and have more jam, those words came out of the GM's mouth. The next time anyone explains how shrimpy briere advances this goal will be the first.

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08-02-2013, 04:48 PM
  #70
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we overachieved.

yes, we will go in with that roster

no, i don't care and im ok with that

2 words: long term.

the end

the bottom line is when ONE ****ING defensemen goes down and your whole team goes down, your team still has massive issues from the previous year and you're still rebuilding/re-tooling.re-whateverthe**** and you have to deal with it.

the worst part is that if MB had gone out and signed clarkson or whatever, or do all the changes he would have to do to make this team more cup-ready team NOW (besides the fact that we dont have ANYTHING to give to ANYONE to get ANYTHING, but i digress), this board would be filled with little girly whines so **** off.

ask yourself this: what if we don't make the playoff this year? are the 'get contending now' team gonna stand up and get what they deserve?

two years ago: we suck trade everyone, rebuild from scratch, **** the world
this year: woo! we rule, we can finally contend, get stuff

somebody explains to me why this off-season is the worst ever on this ****ing website? heightened expectations? cocaine instead of fluoride in the water?

can we have a house rule where whenever you say: "we should have gotten bigger", you say what trade you would have done to get bigger, then we all get to comment on how ******** that proposal is. it would make this entire board more intellismart like...
We should have gotten bigger.....how you ask..

I would trade Diaz to Philly for Andrej Meszaros and a mid draft pick, we get a mid draft for taking the 2.5~ extra on Mes contract this year.

Both are 27 years old entering their last year of their contracts and are pending UFA, Meszaros wasn't healthy last year, but is a physical 6'2 220 ibs, 2 way d-men, perfectly paired with Gorges and play on the 2nd unit on the pp.

I would have signed Morrow isn't of Briere.

Sign Mark Fistric to a 1 year deal seeing how Emelin is out to start the year.

minor moves that don't affect the team long term, you don't take on big contracts, team gets bigger.

Edit: I'd strong think about trading DD for Joel Ward and another draft pick, if you can't get anything better for DD. Ward plays with jam, 500K less, and 2 years less on the contract, had a decent year last year, and Wash needs a Centre.

Mix of
Bourque-Plek-Gionta
Pacioretty-Eller-Gallagher
Morrow-Galchenyuk-Ward
Prust-White-Moen/Parros

Tinordi-Subban
Markov-Fistic/Emelin
Meszaros-Gorges
Bouillon-Drewiske

You pretty much have a roster spot open up every year for a youngest, Gionta in 1 year, Morrow and Ward in 2 years, Bourque and Plekanec in 3 years, so your not stuck with contracts, also can get a few mid picks to use.


Last edited by habs03: 08-02-2013 at 05:15 PM.
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08-02-2013, 04:50 PM
  #71
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I'm saying it's not why we lost the series. I'm also saying Hendricks wouldn't make a difference as he'd take up Parros' spot even if we didn't sign briere.
look at parros fight card last year and then look at Hendricks. One of these things is not like the other.

Are you against giving prust 10 million ? Are you the one fan who does not recognize what prust brings to the team ? Hendricks is not some super heavy, whoever says that is likely confusing him with somebody else. Hendricks, although not as good overall as prust, it a HELL of a lot closer to Prust than he is to Parros and he's cheaper than Prust. this isnt the answer to all of out problems but it is certainly going in the right direction as opposed to backsliding towards being softer.

Hendricks plays about 12 min a game, very comparable to prust who is around 13 and both are about twice stashy at around 6 min.
If we need a heavy, there is not doubt its parros but the team next year sans briere but with parros and hendricks is a hell of a lot tougher than shrimpy and parros.

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08-02-2013, 04:53 PM
  #72
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We need to get bigger and tougher, not smaller and softer. Nashville had no problem signing Hendricks, who would have addressed a persistent need. The answer to too small and too soft is not more small and soft players.

Briere is at the tail end of his career, and his last "production" was on a line with guys demonstrably bigger than what we have. For the money we spent for two years of shrimpy we could have gotten 4 years of a solid defensive forward, unafraid to go with most and more than willing to stand up for his teamates. Hendricks is much closer to Prust than Parros and he is surprisingly good at shootouts.

Were you against the prust signing ? Or should we have saved that money and signed Nathan Gerbe to make our midget forwards look bigger by comparison ? Can we sign verne troyer as well ?

And its not my opinion the team needs to get bigger and have more jam, those words came out of the GM's mouth. The next time anyone explains how shrimpy briere advances this goal will be the first.

I agree with most of what you said in this thread, but I think we need the jam that we need is on the top lines, not so much on the 4th line.
i
While I liked Hendricks, and adds more grit and jam than Moen, and can actually play better hockey compared to White, the extra grit and toughness we get by getting Hendricks and say trading Moen isn't really that huge when we are soooo soft at the top. I mean with Moen-Prust-White-Parros for the 4th line, toughness and grit on that line isn't a big issue, its the other lines.

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08-02-2013, 04:56 PM
  #73
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There are usually some transactions as teams complete their training camps around the first of October...

Rookies push veterans out and some prospects fail to meet expectations. The GMs have a better sense of their rosters then.

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08-02-2013, 05:04 PM
  #74
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I said it before Bergevin got hired and I'll say it again, Montreal needed to rebuild when Gauthier left. A slew of bad trades and signings left Bergevin with nothing to work with. As someone else mentioned, the rookies made him look good, but this is still very much a team that's rebuilding. There are a few nice pieces in the system and things will shape up slowly. I think the McCarron pick was an overreaction over the teams current size, but he'll be a player nonetheless.

I think the organization is heading in the right direction, remains to be seen if Montreal fans in general can deal with a few years of rebuilding.

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08-02-2013, 05:06 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
We need to get bigger and tougher, not smaller and softer. Nashville had no problem signing Hendricks, who would have addressed a persistent need. The answer to too small and too soft is not more small and soft players.

Briere is at the tail end of his career, and his last "production" was on a line with guys demonstrably bigger than what we have. For the money we spent for two years of shrimpy we could have gotten 4 years of a solid defensive forward, unafraid to go with most and more than willing to stand up for his teamates. Hendricks is much closer to Prust than Parros and he is surprisingly good at shootouts.

Were you against the prust signing ? Or should we have saved that money and signed Nathan Gerbe to make our midget forwards look bigger by comparison ? Can we sign verne troyer as well ?

And its not my opinion the team needs to get bigger and have more jam, those words came out of the GM's mouth. The next time anyone explains how shrimpy briere advances this goal will be the first.
Ya we need to get bigger and tougher, but signing a bunch of bottom players will make your team worst, not better.
Hendricks will do what here exactly? Take over Briere's top 6-9 spot? Take over Gionta? You want to throw away top 9 scoring depth for someone that never once scored 10 goals in his career??
If you're talking about Hendricks taking over Moen, then hey, I'm all for it. But you're not here. You keep yapping away about how we need to get bigger and tougher with total disregard to what actually matters the most, getting BETTER.
Hendricks will do jack crap to help DD, or Plekanec. He will not be on their wing, and if he would be, then things are likely to be going very bad.

The targets were guys like Clarkson and Clowe. Bigger guys that can hit, fight and provide depth scoring. The problem is their price tag was incredibly high, ridiculously so. But you're not talking about them, you're talking about a 4th liner. We now have Prust, Moen, White and Parros for that line, that's enough.

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