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Really good explaination of how Bergevin did right thing with subban.

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Old
08-02-2013, 11:21 AM
  #126
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Kinda OT but skip to 4:00 in the video and hear Toews story about Kane:


He says that he screamed at Kane on the bench to pass him the puck + ~2 min of screaming at each other on the bench.

Subban does it for 3 seconds with Pacioretty and it's made to be seen as it's some sort of rare event that never happens and how bad Subban is...
- anyone who plays/played a competitive sport at an elite level understands this completely

- anyone who was blasting Subban last year for those minor incidents either doesn't understand elite level competitive sports, or had another reason for overblowing the incidents

- anyone so color blind as to not clearly see what those other reasons were, lives in a fairytale land that has nothing to do with the biased/prejudiced/racist reality of everyday life we're all a part of.


still can't believe how intelligent people failed to see it... then again, a quick look at our choice of elected officials and our highest rated TV shows explains it all.

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08-02-2013, 11:39 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
Bergevin deserves an A+ for his first year. The structural and organization changes outweigh the singular moves the armchair GM's would lead you to believe.

1. He has added depth and hockey experience in every department of the organization. Player development, advisers, pro scouts, amateur scouts - you name it - he's added. And all experienced hockey guys. We went from probably the thinnest organization that was controlled by one guy, to a deep structure with trusted professionals are given much more leeway.

2. Hasn't traded a single draft pick - added a few himself. (Actually I stand corrected - he traded our seventh this year for Florida's seventh next year)

3. Made development a key organizational objective with the addition of resources (see #1) and not rushing players to the NHL.

4. Clearly changing the culture of the dressing room and team. From sticking to his guns on Subban, by adding Prust and Parros, by drafting size he has remained true to his word that change will come but mostly from within (draft) and adding complimentary pieces through UFA.

5. Held steady on UFA contracts especially in term.

This is what builds champions - not *****ing about DD. Bergevin is all about the big picture while trying to achieve the most success immediately without compromising the future. This is the most important attribute of a good GM, and Bergevin has this in spades.
2. Not that it matters much but he also traded a 5th round pick for Drewiskie.

3. How can you say he didn't rush players to the NHL when we had an 18-19 year old Galchenyuk playing right after he was drafted, and a 20 year Gallagher who spent half a season in the AHL (And possibly would have skipped that if the season had started on time).

4. Forcing Subban to hold out was a mistake.

5. If we look at his overall work in contract negotiations he hasn't done particularly well. Has overpaid for the majority of players.

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08-02-2013, 11:56 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I think I found the problem. I think we view our team differently. You seem to think our core consists of old players, I disagree. I think the older guys you speak of (Gionta, Markov..) are secondary and tertiary players. Our core is PK, Price, MaxPac, Plekanec and Gorges to me. I think for now, those are our 5 key guys. I'm hoping for a little transfer with Eller taking over Plekanec and Emelin does the same with Gorges over the next couple of years. That means the core will be MaxPac, PK, Emelin, Eller and Price.
Guys like Bourque, Gionta, Markov, Briere, are complimentary pieces, not core players.
I think some of these guys can still hold key roles, notably Markov, but the others, over the next few years can be replaced by younger free agents. So you see, I'm not saying Markov, Gionta and Briere need to be at the helm for 4 years, heck they're not even at the helm today. That's why I don't understand why you thought I viewed them as core players. They're not.

Hopefully, guys like Eller and Galchenyuk will take the reigns of the center positions within 2-3 years, making Plekanec expendable or giving the Habs a seriously dangerous and effective trio of centers to lead their respective lines.
Guys like Gionta and Briere will be replaced via free agency for other more effective players. The only older guy I'd keep is Markov, and then again, that will depend a lot on next season and his salary demands.

You and I have a different view of who our core players are.

I'm also talking about the future btw, 2-4 years is the future, not the present.
Well I just don't believe that core is as good as it's gonna be later on, especially in the defence department, I'd rather wait for the youth movement to have fully eclipsed this current core and then have the subban cap savings in the future when galchenyuk completely replaces pleks, and when we have found or developed a suitable number 2 d-man.

The scenario I see where we're contenders in the timeframe you've given is one where, tinordi, beulieu, galhenyuk and gally have sped up development and really take over this team in the next couple years, a taller task for a d-men and our biggest need for sure, but not impossible....I'm hoping it happens and if it does happen then those guys only making the money that they are will be absolutely plenty of cap space to build on with right freea gent of via trade.

I just see it as more likely that they take longer to develop than that. and we have to start paying them to become our core we'll be glad subban will be a little bit cheaper for that time period.

But however you slice it the main thing is go habs.

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Old
08-02-2013, 12:29 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by dreamingofdrouin View Post
Markov is coming to the end of the road...as is gionta and briere. We don't have a chance to contend with those guys at the helm after a couple years, and that means 2..tops...they are done after that. We have a very short window with them and the youngsters yes.....but i don't believe we can be a successful team with those guys in our top six and top d pairings in 2015-16, and so therefore am glad that we didn't try to get the most bang for our buck in the coming four years with subban, as opposed to in the future when tinordi and beaulieu and other d prospects will have time to develop into what we need them to be and we'll have time to find a number 2, and we'll have had the time to properly fill our top six with youth instead of briere and gionta and to a lesser extent bourque and eventually plekanec.

really....this is not a complicated concept.....i don;t get how you can be so confused.....we have core players who are OLD...and yah they may provide enough in combination with all the youth that we have had come in and a norris d-man and a great performance from price to get us to the promise land...im praying for it...im thinking about it everyday,....and will be extremely dissapointed if we don't win the cup next year, as i am every year. But your fooling yourself if your think most of these vet's can hold up for another 4 years....it's just not going to happen.

Future>now.....that is what i'm saying....mother of god.
Markov is 34 years old, are you seriously saying at 36 he'll be done and won't be able to contribute. We don't need him to be on the top pair since we have Subban, we need him to give us quality minutes on the second pairing. For comparison's sake Timonen and Gonchar have similar styles to Markov and are 38 and 39. They are still contributing quality minutes even if they are no longer 1st pairing guys. You remind me of the people who claimed a 30 year old Koivu was done he'd be retired in a few years because his body couldn't handle it anymore. But he's still around at 38 being a key contributor on a team that finished 3rd overall in the league.

Your rosy future is all based on the hope that both Tinordi and Beaulieu reach their full potential. There's no doubt that they are very good prospects but it's simply unlikely that either develop into what Markov is right now. There's a very good chance that we are closer to the cup right now than we will be in 6-7 years.

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08-02-2013, 12:54 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Markov is 34 years old, are you seriously saying at 36 he'll be done and won't be able to contribute. We don't need him to be on the top pair since we have Subban, we need him to give us quality minutes on the second pairing. For comparison's sake Timonen and Gonchar have similar styles to Markov and are 38 and 39. They are still contributing quality minutes even if they are no longer 1st pairing guys. You remind me of the people who claimed a 30 year old Koivu was done he'd be retired in a few years because his body couldn't handle it anymore. But he's still around at 38 being a key contributor on a team that finished 3rd overall in the league.

Your rosy future is all based on the hope that both Tinordi and Beaulieu reach their full potential. There's no doubt that they are very good prospects but it's simply unlikely that either develop into what Markov is right now. There's a very good chance that we are closer to the cup right now than we will be in 6-7 years.
He can still contribute but on the PP...he's already slowing down and we have an offensive d-man in pk...we need a big defensive stud to take that postition...it could be tinordi....it could come from the draft...it could come from trade, but I believe its going to take time to find/develop.


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08-02-2013, 03:53 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Are you trying to argue that those guys have not developed and progressed since their rookie season?
Point is every youngster will still be in development after a few years of coming into the league, no matter how good.

But yea, you're right, so crazy!
I suggest you re-read your post...

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08-02-2013, 04:03 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I suggest you re-read your post...
If you thought I was trying to say PK was done (or ahead) with his development versus those guys, then I'm sorry for not being clear enough. Perhaps I should have made two different paragraphs.
I was responding to someone saying the bridge deal was good because PK was still developing. I disagree with this being a reason, meaning PK was/is still developing, but so were Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane...and all the other players that sign those longer deals after their ELC. Those guys were well worth a longer term investment, and so would PK have been.

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08-02-2013, 05:10 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by dreamingofdrouin View Post
He can still contribute but on the PP...he's already slowing down and we have an offensive d-man in pk...we need a big defensive stud to take that postition...it could be tinordi....it could come from the draft...it could come from trade, but I believe its going to take time to find/develop.
First off he played around 25min a night so he hardly is only contributing on the PP only. Second it's been covered in the Markov threads already but there's a decent chance that next season he'll be faster than this year since he'll have gotten his conditioning back and won't have as condensed a schedule. Even if he doesn't since his play has always been based on positioning/intelligence instead of physical skill he'll be able to adjust.

And second the expectation is for Markov to anchor the 2nd pair with Subban on the 1st pair so whether Tinordi becomes a defensive stud or not has no relevance to Markov place.

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08-02-2013, 07:26 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If you thought I was trying to say PK was done (or ahead) with his development versus those guys, then I'm sorry for not being clear enough. Perhaps I should have made two different paragraphs.
I was responding to someone saying the bridge deal was good because PK was still developing. I disagree with this being a reason, meaning PK was/is still developing, but so were Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane...and all the other players that sign those longer deals after their ELC. Those guys were well worth a longer term investment, and so would PK have been.
yes, you should have.


still, you're comparing Subban to a bunch of guys who have accomplished way more, let's wait before he has a cup or two, or a Connie Smythe, or score the Cup winning goal, or a Hart trophy, etc before putting him in the same sentence as these guys...

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08-02-2013, 08:12 PM
  #135
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I'm not sure how you find the projected financial growth/salary cap unreasonable.

Berkshire used the 8.9% annual growth average from the last CBA period. The league may even surpass these numbers, especially if one or two struggling teams move and the certain addition of 2 more franchises to make an even 30.

The cap going down for 2014 is not based on revenues per se, but is an artificial limit imposed through negotiation in the current CBA.
2007-2008 = $50.3M cap
2008-2009 = $56.7M cap
2009-2010 = $56.8M cap
2010-2011 = $59.4M cap
2011-2012 = $64.3M cap
2012-2013 = $60.0M cap (pro-rated from $70.2M)
2013-2014 = $64.3M cap

So after seven seasons, the increase is $14M using absolute numbers instead of percentages. In the next seven years, that number as the writer projected would be $28.1M or double the absolute growth in the previous seven years. Yes, inflation will account for some of that but definitely not all especially in economies that are still weak and that are fighting inflation.

As for why in 2014, the reason of why the cap went down one year is irrelevant, such as with a change in negotiation with the CBA, it still went down and could also do so again if owner's profits are in the red.

This is all in a fairly saturated market with only a handful of teams making a profit and most losing money. That certainly doesn't look like it will change much in structure nor project (as I see it) to a 9% average overall growth in calculable revenues for the players share in the next ten years. As well, if the owners are still losing money, they will go after and get more of the player's piece of the pie.

I'm not sure where you see two more teams because I see 30 now (7 Pacific +7 Central + 8 Atlantic +8 Metropolitan) and 30 will stay the number. A lot of teams are struggling financially but where do you move them? Most of the larger centers in the US have them and in Canada, even a place like Quebec city that wants a team, already lost one before due to low revenues. There will only be so much growth in those "have not" teams that can barely give tickets away and the "have" teams (e.g. Toronto, Montreal, NY) which don't have many ways to expand on what they have now when they are already at max sales and revenue. Price increases for a few teams can only account for so much.

The only thing that would change all this is a major growth in fan base in the US, but with the heavy competition from other sports and the fact that hockey is just not that popular in the US, I don't see that happening.

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08-02-2013, 11:55 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Ditchweed View Post
2007-2008 = $50.3M cap
2008-2009 = $56.7M cap
2009-2010 = $56.8M cap
2010-2011 = $59.4M cap
2011-2012 = $64.3M cap
2012-2013 = $60.0M cap (pro-rated from $70.2M)
2013-2014 = $64.3M cap

So after seven seasons, the increase is $14M using absolute numbers instead of percentages. In the next seven years, that number as the writer projected would be $28.1M or double the absolute growth in the previous seven years. Yes, inflation will account for some of that but definitely not all especially in economies that are still weak and that are fighting inflation.

As for why in 2014, the reason of why the cap went down one year is irrelevant, such as with a change in negotiation with the CBA, it still went down and could also do so again if owner's profits are in the red.

This is all in a fairly saturated market with only a handful of teams making a profit and most losing money. That certainly doesn't look like it will change much in structure nor project (as I see it) to a 9% average overall growth in calculable revenues for the players share in the next ten years. As well, if the owners are still losing money, they will go after and get more of the player's piece of the pie.

I'm not sure where you see two more teams because I see 30 now (7 Pacific +7 Central + 8 Atlantic +8 Metropolitan) and 30 will stay the number. A lot of teams are struggling financially but where do you move them? Most of the larger centers in the US have them and in Canada, even a place like Quebec city that wants a team, already lost one before due to low revenues. There will only be so much growth in those "have not" teams that can barely give tickets away and the "have" teams (e.g. Toronto, Montreal, NY) which don't have many ways to expand on what they have now when they are already at max sales and revenue. Price increases for a few teams can only account for so much.

The only thing that would change all this is a major growth in fan base in the US, but with the heavy competition from other sports and the fact that hockey is just not that popular in the US, I don't see that happening.
You make some valid points. I obviously miswrote when I said 30.

I think there is no doubt the NHL must add more teams to balance the conferences. It is also my opinion that there is good chance a couple of failing franchises will be sold and moved. All these situations generate revenue for the NHL.

One of the biggest issues of course, is US broadcasting rights. Hard to predict where that goes. But it has climbed over time and hopefully will continue to do so.

I prefer to be positive about growth. I truly believe the NHL offers a better product than both MLB and NBA. Time will tell.

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Old
08-03-2013, 12:40 AM
  #137
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
yes, you should have.


still, you're comparing Subban to a bunch of guys who have accomplished way more, let's wait before he has a cup or two, or a Connie Smythe, or score the Cup winning goal, or a Hart trophy, etc before putting him in the same sentence as these guys...
Euh, the point of mentioning those guys was to show that even the best player in the NHL is still developing after a few years into the league. I never said PK was on the same level at the end of his ELC. Right now he has won the Norris, so whether you still refuse to give him his share of credit he is part of a very small group of NHL players to have won this trophy. Winning a cup is a team effort, you can be one of the best players to ever play the game and still not win a cup.

The point still stands anyways, although not surprised you nitpick at small pieces within a post, it's always hard for you to understand the overall idea, PK was already worth a longer term deal.

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08-03-2013, 05:55 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Euh, the point of mentioning those guys was to show that even the best player in the NHL is still developing after a few years into the league. I never said PK was on the same level at the end of his ELC. Right now he has won the Norris, so whether you still refuse to give him his share of credit he is part of a very small group of NHL players to have won this trophy. Winning a cup is a team effort, you can be one of the best players to ever play the game and still not win a cup.

The point still stands anyways, although not surprised you nitpick at small pieces within a post, it's always hard for you to understand the overall idea, PK was already worth a longer term deal.
when you put their name in the same sentence, yes you are. (feel free to play the semantic game as much as you want, wont change a thing)

re-read yourself before posting, it's not like your posts are enlightning or anything. They're of average quality at best, you shouldnt complain if the responses you get are of the same "calibre".

And dont forget to add facepalm emoticons to make you look smarter, there may be some people who'll fall for it.


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Old
08-03-2013, 10:27 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
when you put their name in the same sentence, yes you are. (feel free to play the semantic game as much as you want, wont change a thing)

re-read yourself before posting, it's not like your posts are enlightning or anything. They're of average quality at best, you shouldnt complain if the responses you get are of the same "calibre".

And dont forget to add facepalm emoticons to make you look smarter, there may be some people who'll fall for it.
Lol seriously dude..:I don't know what to say..

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08-03-2013, 10:32 AM
  #140
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I know what to say. Agree to disagree and move on.

It's....not that hard guys.

However I get how important it is when someone is wrong on the internet. It's kind of a big deal.

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08-03-2013, 10:43 AM
  #141
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This thread is wow...just wait until Subban signs his 8 year deal...that's gonna be some fun...

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08-03-2013, 10:49 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
I know what to say. Agree to disagree and move on.

It's....not that hard guys.

However I get how important it is when someone is wrong on the internet. It's kind of a big deal.
Amen brother, a-freakin'-men!

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08-03-2013, 12:05 PM
  #143
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This thread is wow...just wait until Subban signs his 8 year deal...that's gonna be some fun...
And he'd be worth whatever they give him

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08-03-2013, 04:11 PM
  #144
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Briefly looked the article. Even if we somehow manage to come out even on the cash side (highly unlikely) over the upcoming years, it doesn't matter. It still misses the main point.

This is the third time this topic has come up and nothing has changed. No matter how you slice it, you don't lowball your best players the way we did. MB handled this in a clumsy very stupid way and we're lucky PK didn't demand a trade. Hopefully MB learns from this and doesn't do it with Galchenyuk. If he does he deserves a good shooting.

That is all.


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08-03-2013, 05:47 PM
  #145
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And he'd be worth whatever they give him
I don't think anyone has argued that.

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08-03-2013, 11:57 PM
  #146
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The slow days of summer.

We really should stop discussing the Subban contract, I think all the bases have been covered at this point. The bottom line is quite clear, Bergevin didn't know how good Subban was and thus he wanted more time to evaluate, Bergevin has stated this himself. That may speak ill of Bergevin's talent assessment skills, but we can't expect a human being to get every single decision right. Next summer, we all hope Subban is locked up long-term at a decent salary (i.e. 7 million).

There is nothing more to say.

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08-04-2013, 12:14 AM
  #147
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Unless PK improves his defensive game while getting another Norris, he isn't getting 8M$ per as a RFA guys.

He'll get 7M$ per max IMO. Pietrangelo will be a good comparable.

EDIT : Before people go crazy, I'm not bashing his defensive game, just saying that he needs to work on it to reach the next level.
Reach the next level? You realize he was just named the best player in hockey at his position right? Like the article mentioned, he is going to be getting compared to Karlsson, not Pietrangelo.

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08-04-2013, 02:20 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Briefly looked the article. Even if we somehow manage to come out even on the cash side (highly unlikely) over the upcoming years, it doesn't matter. It still misses the main point.

This is the third time this topic has come up and nothing has changed. No matter how you slice it, you don't lowball your best players the way we did. MB handled this in a clumsy very stupid way and we're lucky PK didn't demand a trade. Hopefully MB learns from this and doesn't do it with Galchenyuk. If he does he deserves a good shooting.

That is all.
Wait, we're upset that our GM signed our players at a good price? I don't get it. You complain when he overpays, you complain when he underpays because its not 'respectful', or something.

Bergevin gave Subban a contract based on what he had earned up to that point in his career, instead of giving him a contract based on potential, which is what lots of other GMs are giving in to with their young players these days, and some of them end up getting burned big time when those players don't reach their potential. I just don't get why MB is getting flamed for this contract. Its very easy to say that Subban was worth more money now, after a Norris-winning season.

I don't think it will be a problem paying Subban what he deserves now that he has actually earned it.

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08-04-2013, 04:37 AM
  #149
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Why do we have to assume that MB played 'hardball' with PK?

Maybe just maybe, Bergevin actually let PK in on what his plan is and actually reasoned with PK in a very gentlemanly and respectful way.

It seemed like PK genuinely came around to the idea of the bridge contract, didn't sound like he begrudgingly signed it.

The whole thing was portrayed that MB was some stubborn mule hellbent on beating PK into the ground and showing him humility. Why does that have to be the sole narrative?

I think Berkshire's figures are a little fudged. I dont think the cap will increase as much as he's saying and I don't think PK would be making over 11 million in 6 years or whatever.

Still, I think the cap will increase enough that it should justify MB's decision. I think this deal will set a precedent that should be beneficial to us yet also doesn't have to be one that is inherently undermining to our stars.

And for the record, I was on board for the bridge deal right from square one so you know I'm not biased!

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08-04-2013, 11:08 AM
  #150
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Posts: 13,475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
Wait, we're upset that our GM signed our players at a good price? I don't get it. You complain when he overpays, you complain when he underpays because its not 'respectful', or something.

Bergevin gave Subban a contract based on what he had earned up to that point in his career, instead of giving him a contract based on potential, which is what lots of other GMs are giving in to with their young players these days, and some of them end up getting burned big time when those players don't reach their potential. I just don't get why MB is getting flamed for this contract. Its very easy to say that Subban was worth more money now, after a Norris-winning season.

I don't think it will be a problem paying Subban what he deserves now that he has actually earned it.
Don't bother, you're wasting your time. They have it in their mind that Subban was beat up to submission like a poor boy. Nothing will change their mind. We know it takes two to tango.

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