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Old
08-04-2013, 02:25 PM
  #151
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We can't fall in love too much with our home grown guys.

A long term deal to Callahan really wouldn't be smart at this point.

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08-04-2013, 02:28 PM
  #152
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We can't fall in love too much with our home grown guys.

A long term deal to Callahan really wouldn't be smart at this point.
it would be better than the Clarkson's of the world and pretty much every contract a UFA signed this off season. I would like to stay around 5 (maybe 6) years off possible but Brown's contract might not help that

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08-04-2013, 03:42 PM
  #153
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it would be better than the Clarkson's of the world and pretty much every contract a UFA signed this off season. I would like to stay around 5 (maybe 6) years off possible but Brown's contract might not help that
Sure but do you really want to base your contracts on being "better" than a terrible contract?

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08-04-2013, 03:47 PM
  #154
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We can't fall in love too much with our home grown guys.

A long term deal to Callahan really wouldn't be smart at this point.
As of now and untill next summer, yes we can.

Just resign all homegrown players to the best possible deal. If nothing else, they can always be traded.

People overthink this way too much. Its a big deal to bring in someone new. To make a trade. Sometimes you gotta do it, but it doesn't change the fact that everyone should be resigned.

Take this for example. People bring up all kind of stats. Lets say we have 4 guys we needs to make a decision on long term. What are the odds that we pick the wrong guy to let go? Callahan and Girardi ends up playing great till they are 40 while Hank and Stepan breaks down when they are 33? Or vice versa? We are talking about the state of players health 5-6 years from now. 7-8 years from now. And the numbers talked about are -- sane -- now, 2013, and given a guaranteed raise of the cap to levels way above what we have today, I would say that odds for any of these guys becoming better than expected must be just as high as the opposite.

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08-04-2013, 04:55 PM
  #155
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08-04-2013, 05:14 PM
  #156
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08-04-2013, 05:23 PM
  #157
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08-04-2013, 05:58 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
As of now and untill next summer, yes we can.

Just resign all homegrown players to the best possible deal. If nothing else, they can always be traded.

People overthink this way too much. Its a big deal to bring in someone new. To make a trade. Sometimes you gotta do it, but it doesn't change the fact that everyone should be resigned.

Take this for example. People bring up all kind of stats. Lets say we have 4 guys we needs to make a decision on long term. What are the odds that we pick the wrong guy to let go? Callahan and Girardi ends up playing great till they are 40 while Hank and Stepan breaks down when they are 33? Or vice versa? We are talking about the state of players health 5-6 years from now. 7-8 years from now. And the numbers talked about are -- sane -- now, 2013, and given a guaranteed raise of the cap to levels way above what we have today, I would say that odds for any of these guys becoming better than expected must be just as high as the opposite.
I'd give 3-4 year deals, but anything more than that.. especially for Callahan.. I would pass.

Girardi i'd probably go up to 5 years

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08-04-2013, 07:24 PM
  #159
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Paul Martin had a down year in 2011-12, but I'd argue that he is a similarly valuable player to Girardi.

Wideman and Streit are PPQB's who always are paid more than Girardi-types.

Add the fact that these players were signed on the open market and not extended (well Streit wasn't but his rights were traded yada, yada, yada...) and Girardi could go for less than 5.5M. I hope. He isn't worth that kind of money IMO, but we also cannot afford to let him walk.
Paul Martin seemed to return back to form this year. If he didnt get injured he was playing good.

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08-04-2013, 10:08 PM
  #160
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I'm so ready for football to start (then hockey), I used to be a baseball fanatic, but the whole PEDs thing for the last 10 years or whatever the hell it was (seems like forever) just annoys me to no end.

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08-05-2013, 01:57 AM
  #161
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They showed the 94 Devils/Rangers game 7 on NHL network the other day. It was startling to see how much the game has changed in 20 years.

The speed of the game is way faster right now, but there is so much more structure. The games really showcased skill and creativity in a much more obvious way. Leetch, for instance, was almost never in position. There were opportunities galore going both ways. Goalies had pads that didn't cover the entire net. There were very few dump-ins. (and this was the Devils too!)

And again, this was game 7 of a conference final. Sure, the players were slower, but it looked like a more exciting game than anything i saw in this year's playoffs.

I'd love for someone to do a breakdown of games from 20 years ago compared to today. Something that could show the amount of time the puck is involved in a play that could be considered a structured play (dump ins, break-outs etc.-- versus pure skill/instinct plays.) I am convinced the stat that would be generated would be eye opening.

Point is, NHL has never been faster and possibly more skilled, but the way the game is played today hides all that skill far too much. It's like trying to enjoy watching professional poker.

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08-05-2013, 04:28 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravey9 View Post
They showed the 94 Devils/Rangers game 7 on NHL network the other day. It was startling to see how much the game has changed in 20 years.

The speed of the game is way faster right now, but there is so much more structure. The games really showcased skill and creativity in a much more obvious way. Leetch, for instance, was almost never in position. There were opportunities galore going both ways. Goalies had pads that didn't cover the entire net. There were very few dump-ins. (and this was the Devils too!)

And again, this was game 7 of a conference final. Sure, the players were slower, but it looked like a more exciting game than anything i saw in this year's playoffs.

I'd love for someone to do a breakdown of games from 20 years ago compared to today. Something that could show the amount of time the puck is involved in a play that could be considered a structured play (dump ins, break-outs etc.-- versus pure skill/instinct plays.) I am convinced the stat that would be generated would be eye opening.

Point is, NHL has never been faster and possibly more skilled, but the way the game is played today hides all that skill far too much. It's like trying to enjoy watching professional poker.
Yeah, its a bit problematic.

First of all, I love that you acknowledge those plays from the 94' team. Nowadays, you often hear about how certain plays supposedly are East-West European plays, which is a complete load of bull. I don't know how many times in that PO's Adam Graves enters the zone on the right side, put on the breaks and hits a trailing player with a pass. The 90's crowd nowdays would yell shoot and ask for more North American N-S plays if a pass was made like that today. Every player on that team drop passes the puck on a regular basis. To a large extent, pre-trap era hockey has become Europan hockey in the eyes of so many around the game today.

Secondly, your point has been discussed some in the perspective of the KHL vs the NHL.

The downside of the NHL, and I am -- definitely -- not saying that the KHL is more entertaining than the NHL, is definitely that the pace of the game makes it harder for skilled players.

The problematic part is that to fix it, you need to acknowledge what causes the problem.

And its not only the "pace" of the game that is behind it. Its also the mind set of many teams. Many coaches just opts to go with a safe low potential style of play. Detroit Red Wings is of course a bit unique, but they are definitely an example of how you still can be successful not playing that destructive high tempo style. Why doesn't more teams follow DRW? Or other versions of that style?

Somehow, it also boils down to the cap, 30 teams in one league, etc. Teams are just not that confident in the NHL. And when you aren't confident, you don't try new things etc.

Its not something you would fix easily, making the ice larger might get all kind of results. Maybe it will come with time. One thing that is very obvious for someone like myself who started to follow the league in the early 90's is the complete termination of the puck rushing D during the trap era. The trap era ended 7 years ago, how long will it take before they come back?

Its not just the Leetch end-to-end rushes that we don't see today. Its -- talent -- on the blueline that have gone missing. Go back 20 years, and the most talented Ds were as talented as the most talented forwards's. There is just not a single D in this league the last 10 years who even remotely offensively have been as skilled as an Ilya Kovalchuk for example. Some will say that there isn't room in the game for puck rushing D's, but I am 100% convinced that a D as talented as Ilya Kovalchuk while being decent defensively would be able to do a helluva lot of damage from the blueline. Just look at Erik Karlsson who is closing in on a PPG, and he is a midget.

If we see more talent on the blueline down the road, coaches will get diffrent tools and can create diffrent products. I mean, for example, I like our D's. I like Staal, Girardi and McD. And MDZ and Strålman. But you often hear comments about how these guys supposedly have good first passes. How their offensive game is underrated and what not. But if you grew up watching hockey during most of the 90's, its more or less impossible to like be impressed by McD's "first pass". Why exactly are people impressed? Because they can deliver a pass blade to blade? Isn't that expected from any 13 y/o playing hockey? I can buy that these guys do not lack any fundamental ability to be decent offensive D's. But they certainly do not possess much offensive ability as of today. Or at least hasn't been allowed to displayed it under Torts. And passive assists they have picked up logging 20+ minutes a night doesn't change that.

In the end, I am fairly confident that the game will change to the better given time.

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08-05-2013, 04:57 AM
  #163
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$5.5M for Girardi? The Rangers will not be able to retain their players entering free agency in the next 2 years. Del Zotto is up for a new contract next summer. Staal is up for a new contract in 2 years. Moore will be a group II without arg rights next summer. McDonagh went from entry level to $4.7M.The Rangers will need McIlrath to play at some point next season. 2 more years at entry level and then he is a group II without arb rights.

Just look at the math.

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08-05-2013, 05:28 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Yeah, its a bit problematic.

Its not just the Leetch end-to-end rushes that we don't see today. Its -- talent -- on the blueline that have gone missing. Go back 20 years, and the most talented Ds were as talented as the most talented forwards's. There is just not a single D in this league the last 10 years who even remotely offensively have been as skilled as an Ilya Kovalchuk for example. Some will say that there isn't room in the game for puck rushing D's, but I am 100% convinced that a D as talented as Ilya Kovalchuk while being decent defensively would be able to do a helluva lot of damage from the blueline. Just look at Erik Karlsson who is closing in on a PPG, and he is a midget.

If we see more talent on the blueline down the road, coaches will get diffrent tools and can create diffrent products. I mean, for example, I like our D's. I like Staal, Girardi and McD. And MDZ and Strålman. But you often hear comments about how these guys supposedly have good first passes. How their offensive game is underrated and what not. But if you grew up watching hockey during most of the 90's, its more or less impossible to like be impressed by McD's "first pass". Why exactly are people impressed? Because they can deliver a pass blade to blade? Isn't that expected from any 13 y/o playing hockey? I can buy that these guys do not lack any fundamental ability to be decent offensive D's. But they certainly do not possess much offensive ability as of today. Or at least hasn't been allowed to displayed it under Torts. And passive assists they have picked up logging 20+ minutes a night doesn't change that.

In the end, I am fairly confident that the game will change to the better given time.
Economics. Status. Prestige. Coaching.

The guys playing the game now grew up on Roy, Brodeur, Lemieux, etc. Center and goalie is/were the glamor & big money positions, so more of the kids gravitated to them.

And like you mentioned in your post - coaching. No such thing as a 1-way pure player anymore. If you want to get icetime in the NHL, you'd better be a 200-foot player. We need a few coaches out there to allow elite skill level guys the ability to be pure offensive dynamos on the blueline again.

What the league needs, is to get a few more Karlssons, Subbans, or a modern era Orr to dazzle the kids and get them excited about playing on the blueline.

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08-05-2013, 05:41 AM
  #165
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When we see talented defenceman that are questionable defensively we bash them. Look no further than Mike Green. Would love to have him on this rangers team.

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08-05-2013, 07:53 AM
  #166
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When we see talented defenceman that are questionable defensively we bash them. Look no further than Mike Green. Would love to have him on this rangers team.
Yeah, but Mike Green is also an example of how D's really isn't that talented anymore. He is seen as a top 3-5 D in terms of raw talent (but held lower in other areas).

But he just isn't that talented. If you look at explosiveness, stickhandling, speed etc he is way behind a Kovalchuk.

Karlsson is very talented, I would hold him a little notch above Zubov in Zubov's prime. Doughty in raw talent is up there with Blake/Pronger/Bourque. I think DD is a helluva gifted D. Subban is also very talented. But neither Subban nor DD are offensive wiz's.

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08-05-2013, 07:59 AM
  #167
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$5.5M for Girardi? The Rangers will not be able to retain their players entering free agency in the next 2 years. Del Zotto is up for a new contract next summer. Staal is up for a new contract in 2 years. Moore will be a group II without arg rights next summer. McDonagh went from entry level to $4.7M.The Rangers will need McIlrath to play at some point next season. 2 more years at entry level and then he is a group II without arb rights.

Just look at the math.
I still hope that we won't loose a player.

If the cap goes up another 6-7m in 2 years, we have more room.

And if not, trading one of the established players making 4-5m per for a ELC opens up alot of space too. I can almost guarantee that AV won't come here and go "Wow, I have the perfect roster here". He will want changes to be made, without any doubt. The more value we deem a player to have for us, the more value we would get for him in a trade. I mean, if you put a player like Callahan, Stepan, Hagelin, Brassard, Kreider, McD, Staal, Girardi or someone like that on the table, we will get something good in return without any doubt. I suspect that AV will want more of an offensive punch from the blue line and maybe anther high end offensive players.

I think that the biggest challenge for Slats is to find the one or two pieces we miss, not keep what we have.

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08-05-2013, 08:39 AM
  #168
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Del Zotto is lousy on the right side, and Stralman cannot play top-pairing minutes -- assuming he's retained that is. Might behoove the team to experiment with a McDonagh/Staal top pairing to see if they can lock that down in the event that they can't justify the money Girardi wants.

McD - Staal
MDZ - Girardi
Moore - Stralman

The big issue is that the MDZ/Girardi pairing has been god awful previously. That of course and the possibility that Staal wants to go to Carolina, which will put us in a world of hurt if we lose Girardi.

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08-05-2013, 09:16 AM
  #169
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They showed the 94 Devils/Rangers game 7 on NHL network the other day. It was startling to see how much the game has changed in 20 years.

The speed of the game is way faster right now, but there is so much more structure. The games really showcased skill and creativity in a much more obvious way. Leetch, for instance, was almost never in position. There were opportunities galore going both ways. Goalies had pads that didn't cover the entire net. There were very few dump-ins. (and this was the Devils too!)

And again, this was game 7 of a conference final. Sure, the players were slower, but it looked like a more exciting game than anything i saw in this year's playoffs.

I'd love for someone to do a breakdown of games from 20 years ago compared to today. Something that could show the amount of time the puck is involved in a play that could be considered a structured play (dump ins, break-outs etc.-- versus pure skill/instinct plays.) I am convinced the stat that would be generated would be eye opening.

Point is, NHL has never been faster and possibly more skilled, but the way the game is played today hides all that skill far too much. It's like trying to enjoy watching professional poker.
If you watch games on YouTube from the 1980's and compare them to what's played now, the difference is beyond comprehension. Back then, the players look like they are skating in slow motion. The goals goalies gave up back then; whoa, holy bleep. If a goalie gave up those kinds of goals now, he'd be sent to a league so far down on the totem pole, no one would ever be able to find them again.

In some ways, the play now is better than then, but in other ways, it was better then. I hate that everything now is so so structured that there is little creativity/spontaneity. The players are more skilled now, but with the tight checking systems played now, you don't get to see it. The skill level is on a more even level now than back in the 1980's. Everyone is fast, strong, big, etc.; the offensive players are good at what they do, but so are the defensive players, evening up the skill level. You can blame the systems for part of this.

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08-05-2013, 09:23 AM
  #170
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Lundqvist goes from $6.875M to $9M. That's an over $2M increase. Callahan and Girardi are also getting $2M increases each? There goes the $6M cap increase. Its gone to 3 players. Over $20M in 3 players. $50M on the rest of the team which McD and Nash at a combined $12.5M. That's 5 players. $37.5M for the remaining players. If all of the group 2s with arb rights and group 3s are going to want $2M annual increases,good luck. Del Zotto is looking at $4M at minimum. Brassard has a qualifying offer of $3.7M.

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08-05-2013, 09:26 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Del Zotto is lousy on the right side, and Stralman cannot play top-pairing minutes -- assuming he's retained that is. Might behoove the team to experiment with a McDonagh/Staal top pairing to see if they can lock that down in the event that they can't justify the money Girardi wants.

McD - Staal
MDZ - Girardi
Moore - Stralman

The big issue is that the MDZ/Girardi pairing has been god awful previously. That of course and the possibility that Staal wants to go to Carolina, which will put us in a world of hurt if we lose Girardi.
They will need to know what Staal wants to do. Does he want to stay in New York or bolt to Carolina?

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08-05-2013, 09:42 AM
  #172
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Lundqvist goes from $6.875M to $9M. That's an over $2M increase. Callahan and Girardi are also getting $2M increases each? There goes the $6M cap increase. Its gone to 3 players. Over $20M in 3 players. $50M on the rest of the team which McD and Nash at a combined $12.5M. That's 5 players. $37.5M for the remaining players. If all of the group 2s with arb rights and group 3s are going to want $2M annual increases,good luck. Del Zotto is looking at $4M at minimum. Brassard has a qualifying offer of $3.7M.
Hank isn't getting 9M...particularly if he's looking for a deal that brings him to nearly age 40.

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08-05-2013, 10:02 AM
  #173
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Hank isn't getting 9M...particularly if he's looking for a deal that brings him to nearly age 40.
What do you think Lundqvist will get?

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08-05-2013, 10:06 AM
  #174
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$5.5M for Girardi? The Rangers will not be able to retain their players entering free agency in the next 2 years. Del Zotto is up for a new contract next summer. Staal is up for a new contract in 2 years. Moore will be a group II without arg rights next summer. McDonagh went from entry level to $4.7M.The Rangers will need McIlrath to play at some point next season. 2 more years at entry level and then he is a group II without arb rights.

Just look at the math.
The math can still work. I demonstrated how you could fit a roster under a $68m cap for next season, including Girardi getting $5.5m and Callahan getting $5.7m, on the first page in this thread.

The real question is whether or not we can keep our RFAs in line and retain the UFAs, but a lot of that is going to depend on how players play. If DZ establishes himself as a top PP player and maintains his decent level at even strength, he'll get more than the $3.5m I put down. John Moore and Derick Brassard are other possibilities of players who might earn bigger raises than I've given them. However, it's probably only off by about $500k-$1m for each one if they exceed my expectations. If the cap gets over $70m, we could still end up with a complete roster and sign Girardi at $5.5m.

All of that being said, we've known for a while now that they aren't going to be able to keep all of our defensemen indefinitely. Just imagine how much more difficult this problem would be if we hadn't traded Tyutin. All I know is that, if the choice is between giving Girardi $5.5m and having to deal Staal, I'd much rather do that than lose Girardi for nothing and keep Staal, even though I think Staal is a better defenseman.

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08-05-2013, 10:12 AM
  #175
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Hank shouldn't get anything more than $7.5M, Cally and G stay the same, and Brass/DZ's hits depend on their play next year. Done.

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