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2013 Offseason roster build thread part Additional Nauseum

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Old
08-06-2013, 11:27 AM
  #451
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Originally Posted by tehinternet View Post
?
He's a -4 and -5 player in +/- over the last three seasons. He's tough, and gritty, but I don't know if I'd want him out there to close out a 1-goal lead against a tough opponent.
Being that close to 0 when you play on a line that almost never scores goals is very unimpressive.

+- is not a defensive stat.

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08-06-2013, 11:29 AM
  #452
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I have no use for Kaleta anymore, he is basically just taking up a roster spot. You have Ott to play the agitator role, you can find guys to kill penalties. His act has gotten old with me and the fact that he can't do anything offensively...I've seen enough of him.
Yes, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. He's a good hockey player, not only defensively but also the best at drawing penalties in the league.

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08-06-2013, 11:31 AM
  #453
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Adam has has his ups and downs in both Buf and Roch. Some might argue he got ruined by Ruff. Rolson *might* be able to save him. I think Buf might give him one more shot, but if he falters early on, he's done.

If Buffalo is committed to rebuilding with youth, might as well try to put Flynn at C. This is the time to experiment. We're light on experienced centers right now -- especially with the idea of moving Ennis back to wing to allow centers to develop.
Its not the time to experiment its the time to let young talented centers get a chance. We have a ton of them coming and there is little point in trying Flynn at center right now.

You experiment with players at different positions when you have no other options at that position and none on the horizon. With Hodgson, Ennis, Grigs, Larsson, Girgs, Cat, Adam and Sundher we have plenty of young center options to try (along with Porter) before we need to get into experiments. After years of dealing with these experiments I'd rather see us just let some young centers try to play center in the NHL

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Realistically though, Kaleta and Stafford's days in Buffalo are numbered. They're quickly becoming obsolete. Kaleta is often injured and getting a bad rep with the referee's. Stafford is overpaid for his performance and one of the last remnants of the of the 'core' which has been dismantled.
Not sure why you think they are obsolete. We don't have many proven top 6 scoring wingers on the roster that can put up 20g 45pts.

Kaleta doesn't have a bad rep with the refs or he wouldn't be the best player in the league at drawing penalties while taking as few as he does.

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Originally Posted by tehinternet View Post
?
He's a -4 and -5 player in +/- over the last three seasons. He's tough, and gritty, but I don't know if I'd want him out there to close out a 1-goal lead against a tough opponent.
Plus/minus is a pretty weak stat to argue your point. He's a solid defensive winger and has played well against some pretty tough players over the last few years. Matt Coller on WGR had a good article laying out his strengths defensively as well as other things that make him a very effective 4th liner. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...195&highlight=

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08-06-2013, 11:56 AM
  #454
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Don't use +/- to evaluate defensive abilities...

Someone posted a great article that really showed how great Kaleta is defensively and how useful he still is at other facets of the game... Don't feel like looking for it.

Kaleta absolutely is a guy you should want out there defending a lead, especially compared to other forwards on this roster...
Also---+/- doesnt reflect PK time.

Can't use a +/- to evaluate a pure defensive forward type of players...it is always going to be - on a +/-

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08-06-2013, 11:58 AM
  #455
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As for Stafford-----If you want to trade him you need him to play on the top 2 lines....his production numbers go up you get good trade value. Having him on the 4th line kills his value.

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08-06-2013, 12:03 PM
  #456
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I know it's not Darcy's M.O. , but if we deal Miller and/or Vanek, and get Cody locked up, what would Sabreland think about offersheeting Nazem Kadri?

The Leafs are right against the cap, with Kadri & Franson still unsigned, and Biggs, MacWilliam & Rielly all carry $1M+ cap hits... If we offered a 3yr/$10.08M deal to Kadri, would they match it? The comp would be a 2nd RND pick if they didn't, well worth it IMO.

Ennis-Hodgson-Stafford
Leino-Grigirenko-Ott
Foligno-Kadri-Armia/Flynn
Girgensons-Larsson/Porter- Kaleta
X. Adam, Scott


Thoughts?

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08-06-2013, 12:31 PM
  #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
I know it's not Darcy's M.O. , but if we deal Miller and/or Vanek, and get Cody locked up, what would Sabreland think about offersheeting Nazem Kadri?

The Leafs are right against the cap, with Kadri & Franson still unsigned, and Biggs, MacWilliam & Rielly all carry $1M+ cap hits... If we offered a 3yr/$10.08M deal to Kadri, would they match it? The comp would be a 2nd RND pick if they didn't, well worth it IMO.

Ennis-Hodgson-Stafford
Leino-Grigirenko-Ott
Foligno-Kadri-Armia/Flynn
Girgensons-Larsson/Porter- Kaleta
X. Adam, Scott


Thoughts?
They'd match it, no questions asked. And then they'd likely give an even bigger offersheet to hodgson for our troubles.

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08-06-2013, 12:57 PM
  #458
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And then they'd likely give an even bigger offersheet to hodgson for our troubles.
Didn't read the entire post I see. Plus I'd be greatly entertained watching them sort out that cap hell.

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08-06-2013, 02:16 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Imlach a cup View Post
Didn't read the entire post I see. Plus I'd be greatly entertained watching them sort out that cap hell.
Or hey, Why not offer identical offer sheets to Franson & Kadri? force their hand & make them sign one or both (and go over the cap in the process)... is there a rule against that?

Would anyone have an issue with Cody Franson @ 3.6M per? Would make McBain instantly expendable.

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08-06-2013, 02:28 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
Or hey, Why not offer identical offer sheets to Franson & Kadri? force their hand & make them sign one or both (and go over the cap in the process)... is there a rule against that?

Would anyone have an issue with Cody Franson @ 3.6M per? Would make McBain instantly expendable.
Pretty sure you can't offer identical offer sheets to multiple players since they'd require the same draft pick compensation. You can't do that.

10.3 (d) (i) A Club may have more than one Offer Sheet signed by a Restricted Free Agent outstanding at any one time and from time to time, provided that it has the available draft picks to satisfy its obligations pursuant to Section 10.4 with respect to all Offer Sheets outstanding at the relevant time.

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08-06-2013, 03:03 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by dotcommunism View Post
Pretty sure you can't offer identical offer sheets to multiple players since they'd require the same draft pick compensation. You can't do that.

10.3 (d) (i) A Club may have more than one Offer Sheet signed by a Restricted Free Agent outstanding at any one time and from time to time, provided that it has the available draft picks to satisfy its obligations pursuant to Section 10.4 with respect to all Offer Sheets outstanding at the relevant time.
Sabres currently have 3 2014 2nd Rounders though, if I remember correctly. I wouldn't make those offers though...

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08-06-2013, 03:08 PM
  #462
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Sabres currently have 3 2014 2nd Rounders though, if I remember correctly. I wouldn't make those offers though...
RFA offersheet compensation is always with a team's own picks. Other selections are not allowed.

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08-06-2013, 03:18 PM
  #463
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RFA offersheet compensation is always with a team's own picks. Other selections are not allowed.
Stupid League with all their rules... How are we supposed to screw the Leafs without being able to circumvent a little...

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08-06-2013, 03:19 PM
  #464
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Stupid League with all their rules... How are we supposed to screw the Leafs without being able to circumvent a little...
Make one offer that is the first and third rounder compensation, make the other as a 2nd rounder. Or stagger the offers so that if the Leafs do accept the first, they would be in an even worse bind for the second.

It's not Regier's MO at all.

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08-06-2013, 05:00 PM
  #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Make one offer that is the first and third rounder compensation, make the other as a 2nd rounder. Or stagger the offers so that if the Leafs do accept the first, they would be in an even worse bind for the second.

It's not Regier's MO at all.
Offersheets have been historically stupid. The only one is recent memory that had both

A) A decent chance of success
B) Was good value for the offering team

Was the Weber offersheet with Philly/Nashville. The only other one I can think of that achieved the desired result was offersheeting Hjarmlarrson (or however you spell it) knowing the Blackhawks would match it, but might knock loose another player. An offersheet that forces a team to match but overpay but puts them in a bind for other players long term is pretty good gaming of the system, but again, that isn't in Regier's playbook.

Some GMs are playing Chess, some are playing Checkers, Darcy is playing "Simon....err.. Terry Says"

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08-06-2013, 05:29 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
Or hey, Why not offer identical offer sheets to Franson & Kadri? force their hand & make them sign one or both (and go over the cap in the process)... is there a rule against that?

Would anyone have an issue with Cody Franson @ 3.6M per? Would make McBain instantly expendable.
So why are we offersheeting Franson? Especially since the compensation would be a 1st and a 3rd round pick and if we end up with a lottery pick it would be ****in brutal. We have no need for anymore defenseman. Kadri I would consider, but they'd just match the offersheet so it seems rather useless.

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08-06-2013, 06:03 PM
  #467
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This is not the year to be making that kind of splash.

The Sabres should not be giving up picks for next year. You throw the picks at an RFA when the team is on the upswing, when the picks are going to be late in the rounds. Remember the Phil Kessel lesson--the Leafs would have been better off getting Seguin/Hamilton or similar and THEN trading for a Kessel-type player.

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08-06-2013, 06:41 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
Or hey, Why not offer identical offer sheets to Franson & Kadri? force their hand & make them sign one or both (and go over the cap in the process)... is there a rule against that?

Would anyone have an issue with Cody Franson @ 3.6M per? Would make McBain instantly expendable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by is the answer jesus View Post
So why are we offersheeting Franson? Especially since the compensation would be a 1st and a 3rd round pick and if we end up with a lottery pick it would be ****in brutal. We have no need for anymore defenseman. Kadri I would consider, but they'd just match the offersheet so it seems rather useless.
That was supposed to be $3.36M not $3.6... I just can't type. Intended to be a 2nd for comp.

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08-06-2013, 08:01 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
That was supposed to be $3.36M not $3.6... I just can't type. Intended to be a 2nd for comp.
That's better at least, but I still see no need to target Franson. Our defensive pipeline is stacked.

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08-07-2013, 04:16 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by dotcommunism View Post
Pretty sure you can't offer identical offer sheets to multiple players since they'd require the same draft pick compensation. You can't do that.

10.3 (d) (i) A Club may have more than one Offer Sheet signed by a Restricted Free Agent outstanding at any one time and from time to time, provided that it has the available draft picks to satisfy its obligations pursuant to Section 10.4 with respect to all Offer Sheets outstanding at the relevant time.
the only rule wih offer sheets is you have to be able to fit them under your teams cap---thus having salary available.

If you only have $2M in cap space you cant offer sheet a player at $3.3M

As for compensation --unless negotiated---rolls over to the next availabe corresponding pick in future years.

thus Ottawa could still offer sheet a player even though they traded their 1st to Anaheim.

The compensation is supposed to be that teams picks--not ones they acquired via trade. If Buffalo were to offer sheet Kadri at a rate that only woulkd give a 2nd round pick---the one they would be required to give is their own. If buffalo had traded their 2nd but still had Minnesota and LA picks then it would be up to Toronto to decide if they wanted to take one of LA/Min picks or instead take Buffalo's 2nd in 2015.

Similarly say buffalo was to trade Vanek and Ehrhoff and as part of the deals they got 1st round picks for both palyers. They then sign Pietrangleo to an offersheet that means 4 1st compensation. Buffalo could offer St Louis their 2 1sts in 2014 and 2015 + the 2 acquired for Vanek and Ehrhoff...but St Louis could opt to just take Buffalo's 1st round picks the next 4 years.

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08-07-2013, 04:27 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
This is not the year to be making that kind of splash.

The Sabres should not be giving up picks for next year. You throw the picks at an RFA when the team is on the upswing, when the picks are going to be late in the rounds. Remember the Phil Kessel lesson--the Leafs would have been better off getting Seguin/Hamilton or similar and THEN trading for a Kessel-type player.
With Toronto after the 2008-2009 season the past 2 years they were around a .500 club roughly 36-35-11 low 80 pt team about 10 pts out of the playoffs.

The feeling was making a deal for Kessel should make a difference in about 10 games where they turn 1 pt to 2 pts games or turn 1 goal loses into wins...thus adding around 12 pts to the team in the standings...which would put them in the mid 90 pts and safely into the playoffs.

2009-2010 they didnt expect to take such a step back thus giving up 2nd overall.

For current paralleles would be Edmonton where you think this team is up and coming and they may want to risk adding a veteran(like Miller) and giving up a 1st next year where they expect those added vets would push them into a playoff team.

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08-07-2013, 04:37 PM
  #472
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As for compensation --unless negotiated---rolls over to the next availabe corresponding pick in future years.

thus Ottawa could still offer sheet a player even though they traded their 1st to Anaheim.

The compensation is supposed to be that teams picks--not ones they acquired via trade. If Buffalo were to offer sheet Kadri at a rate that only woulkd give a 2nd round pick---the one they would be required to give is their own. If buffalo had traded their 2nd but still had Minnesota and LA picks then it would be up to Toronto to decide if they wanted to take one of LA/Min picks or instead take Buffalo's 2nd in 2015.

Similarly say buffalo was to trade Vanek and Ehrhoff and as part of the deals they got 1st round picks for both palyers. They then sign Pietrangleo to an offersheet that means 4 1st compensation. Buffalo could offer St Louis their 2 1sts in 2014 and 2015 + the 2 acquired for Vanek and Ehrhoff...but St Louis could opt to just take Buffalo's 1st round picks the next 4 years.
Absolutely none of this is true at all.

10.4 Draft Choice Compensation for Restricted Free Agents.
Any Club that is entitled to but does not exercise its Right of First Refusal pursuant to Section 10.3 shall be entitled to obtain Draft Choice Compensation from the New Club. The number and quality of draft choices due to the Prior Club shall be based on the average annual value of the compensation contained in the Principal Terms (as defined in Section 10.3(e) hereof) of the New Club's Offer Sheet (determined by dividing such compensation by the lesser of the number of years of the Offer Sheet or five), based on the following scale:
GROUP 2 COMPENSATION CHART
OFFER SHEET COMPENSATION
$1,110,249 or below None
Over $1,110,249 to $1,682,194 Third Round
Over $1,682,194 to $3,364,391 Second Round
Over $3,364,391 to $5,046,585 First Round and Third Round
Over $5,046,585 to $6,728,781 First Round, Second Round, and Third
Round
Over $6,728,781 to $8,410,976 Two First Rounds, Second Round, and
Third Round
Over $8,410,976 Four First Rounds

The dollar amounts set forth in the scale outlined above shall be increased on an annual basis at the same percentage rate of annual increase as the Average League Salary, with the first such increase occurring based upon a comparison of the 2014/15 Average League Salary to the 2013/14 Average League Salary. By way of example, if the Average League Salary for the 2014/15 League Year has increased by ten (10) percent from the Average League Salary for the 2013/14 League Year, then each of the dollar amounts stated in the table above shall be increased by ten (10) percent, and the basis for determining the number and quality of draft choices due to the Prior Club for the loss of a Restricted Free Agent signed after such date shall be adjusted accordingly. Clubs must use their own draft picks (being those awarded directly to the Club by the League for use by it in the Entry Draft, including such draft picks described in the first clause of this parenthetical that a Club has traded or encumbered, and subsequently reacquired or unencumbered).

Clubs cannot acquire picks to use as compensation (with the exception being a Club's own draft selections that are traded and then re-acquired).

Clubs owing one (1) draft selection must have it available in the next draft.

Clubs owing two (2) draft selections in different rounds must have them available in the next draft.

Clubs owing three (3) draft selections in different rounds must have them available in the next draft.

Clubs owing two (2) draft selections in the same round, must have them available in the next three (3) drafts.

Clubs owing three (3) draft selections in the same round must have them available in the next four (4) drafts, and so on.

When a Club owes two (2) or more draft selections in the same round, the signing Club does not elect the years in which such selections shall beawarded to the Prior Club; rather, the selections next available will be transferred to the Prior Club (i.e., a Club that owes two (2) selections has them available in the next two (2) drafts – that is when they are transferred).

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08-07-2013, 04:44 PM
  #473
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This offer from the trade board... I like it... I'd do it...

Boedker, Korpikoski, 2nd
for
Vanek

first, once your done freaking out that the deal doesn't include a 1st rounder... please appreciate the value that should be associated with Boedker. High end skater, high end scoring skills, 23 yrs old... fits right in the age group we should be adding to. Can immediately step into a top 6 scoring role.

Korpikoski is my type of player. A committed 2 way player who is good for 30+ pts... would fit right in on our checking line immediately.

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08-07-2013, 04:58 PM
  #474
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This offer from the trade board... I like it... I'd do it...

Boedker, Korpikoski, 2nd
for
Vanek

first, once your done freaking out that the deal doesn't include a 1st rounder... please appreciate the value that should be associated with Boedker. High end skater, high end scoring skills, 23 yrs old... fits right in the age group we should be adding to. Can immediately step into a top 6 scoring role.

Korpikoski is my type of player. A committed 2 way player who is good for 30+ pts... would fit right in on our checking line immediately.
Pretty good value. I'm not super high on Boedker, but he's young and there's potential there. I like Korpikoski more than most and a 2nd round pick is a 2nd round pick, another asset towards the rebuild.

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08-07-2013, 05:05 PM
  #475
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Boedker's not really a scorer. Maybe he develops into it but at worst he is a good two way guy with incredible speed. I like him and speed is something we need. Korp gives us some more size on the wing and a 2nd round pick is likely a mid 2nd. Sabres should take this deal if offered it.

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